New Combat System in Skyward Sword.

[athenian200]

I've been reading about the Combat system in Skyward Sword, and there are a few things that have me concerned.

I'm concerned about having to dynamically adjust to enemy movement in real time, because that's exactly the kind of thing I'm not very good at doing. I've read that it will involve having to switch between various kinds of sword strokes, and focus on defending with the shield, all at the same time.

This might end up being too much to process mentally. I'm increasingly feeling that new games tax my very poor multitasking and dynamic reaction capabilities in ways that make it very difficult for me to adapt.

What I'm basically picturing, is having to swing the sword one way, while holding the shield another, and having to move them both around with great speed in order to deflect and attack. I don't think I'm cut out for it, because I just can't make my arms respond that quickly for more than a few minutes. My hands, maybe... but not my arms. That's just too much to ask.

For someone like me, the proposed system would make each battle would feel like a boss battle to me, and the boss battles feel impossible.

So, what do you think? Do you like the new combat system? Or do you have reservations about it?

 

[Baysiderulez]

I think you bring up some very good points.

Although i think given time, and after dying several times I do think the synapses in your brain would start to function faster, as they could predict your opponents next move, and you'd prepare yourself for defense or offense depending on the situation. I wouldn't underestimate the power of your brain just yet, lass.

Although you bring up a very good point as well with 'difficulty.' I am an advocate for making the Zelda games harder, but at the same time I think I should clarify. Should a game be difficult to play because of the physical controls, or should a game be difficult to play because enemies are genuinely hard? I do not think the controls should be what makes the game hard. I think the game taxing your methods of thinking, Not knowing an enemies weak spot, puzzles, and other mind intensive apsects is what should make a Zelda game hard... Not ones ability to use the controller.

Which I think is where your concern is totally valid. You should not be physically exhausted after playing Zelda, and your frustrations should not occur because you cant seem to hold/swing the controller the exact 'correct' way. Especially given the free range the wii motion plus gives you. While being physically exhausted would be representative of Link's struggle if he were to be in the real world. I do not think that the physical exhaustion should carry over along with the players experience. Especially when most people are looking to games as a way to wind down.

 

[DeletedUser9]

I agree a lot with Jo that a game should not be hard because of the control setup but rather because of the game design. I believe Aonuma talked about Skyward Sword likely being harder because of the Wii Motion Plus controls, but I think he was talking more about how the enemies will be blocking certain directions and you'll have to adjust the arc of your swings to pierce their defenses, so... I dunno if that makes things worse for you Ath.

Thing is, I really don't think the game is ultimately going to require much physical multitasking. The wiimote definitely will not have to be swung all over the place, but rather I'm pretty sure wrist movements will suffice. Additionally, the only other movement is holding the Nunchuk in front of you to block with your shield. It's also possible that as soon as you swing your sword the shield goes down automatically, so it's likely you don't even have to move that shield arm while fighting. I don't think it'll be too bad personally, although I admit I have a very optimistic attitude toward SS.

 

[athenian200]

Although i think given time, and after dying several times I do think the synapses in your brain would start to function faster, as they could predict your opponents next move, and you'd prepare yourself for defense or offense depending on the situation. I wouldn't underestimate the power of your brain just yet, lass.

Well, of course. If people can learn to fight against real people, with real swords and shields, the video game should still be much easier than that. But that often takes years of training. Which means it could take me a long time to get good enough at Skyward Sword to actually win boss battles.

Although you bring up a very good point as well with 'difficulty.' I am an advocate for making the Zelda games harder, but at the same time I think I should clarify. Should a game be difficult to play because of the physical controls, or should a game be difficult to play because enemies are genuinely hard? I do not think the controls should be what makes the game hard. I think the game taxing your methods of thinking, Not knowing an enemies weak spot, puzzles, and other mind intensive apsects is what should make a Zelda game hard... Not ones ability to use the controller.

Yes, I agree with you. I don't think control difficulty is a good way to add difficulty to a game, which is what I think the Wii and DS tend to do. I much prefer puzzle solving difficulties, because I know I just have to think of something. Not necessarily perform an action that is on the edge of my capacity.

Which I think is where your concern is totally valid. You should not be physically exhausted after playing Zelda, and your frustrations should not occur because you cant seem to hold/swing the controller the exact 'correct' way. Especially given the free range the wii motion plus gives you. While being physically exhausted would be representative of Link's struggle if he were to be in the real world. I do not think that the physical exhaustion should carry over along with the players experience. Especially when most people are looking to games as a way to wind down.

Yes. If anything, playing a game like this could be the most exhausting part of my day, if it goes the way they described it. On top of that, I might not have enough room to swing the Wii remote around.

I'm just hoping that they tone the controls down enough so that you can control the game with slight wrist movements rather than broad shoulder movements. That might be easier to handle. After all, it's not final yet, so they might see the issue and correct it before release. Either that, or make using the sword optional most of the time, allowing you to compensate by using other items.

 

[disturbed42]

You might be over-thinking this. I mean, Miyamoto and Aonuma can play this game for Pete's sake (and they're a bunch of old men xD lol), so it shouldn't really be that bad. Although you may not be used to it completely the first time you play, it really won't take that long for you to get it (like Baysiderulez said). Plus Nintendo has been developing SS for 4 (or was it 5?) years now, and the whole time they've kept in mind, "Hey, we're gonna make this fun, but let's not forget the people who are new to Zelda or people who aren't particularly great at video games." They've always kept those types of people in mind. So while it might be tiring, you're not going to kill yourself (or Link, for that matter) playing this game.

However, I do a lot of my Zelda-playing during the wee hours of the morning, so the last thing I'm going to want to do is physical movement. I just wanna sit there and move my thumbs on a controller. That's it. But WM+ isn't neccessarily a bad thing, in fact, it's a very good thing (Exercise! Yay!), so I'll just hafta get over it.

And as it was mentioned before, the enemies have been made harder, or at least it seems that way. They take down a full freaking heart this time, not 1/4 of one (Gosh, finally). So not all the difficulty will come from just the physical movement. Nintendo has implemented new puzzles and new enemies and all that, so there's a lot of stuff within the actual game that will challenge you.

But don't feel nervous about the gameplay. I'm totally clumsy and terrible when it comes to controlling my movements and whatnot. And I know FOR A FACT that I'm going to look like an idiot when I play this game xD But that's the fun of it! Just don't worry, you'll be fine :3

 

[StrangeWig]

I don't think control difficulty is a good way to add difficulty to a game, which is what I think the Wii and DS tend to do.

Wow, you actually think that? :hmm:

I mean, one of the main purposes for the creation of the Nintendo DS and the Wii is exactly to make the controls more straight forward so casual players can have an easier time getting the hopes of it. Instead of inputting a complicated sequence of buttons and directions, you just swing your hand/arm. This means that the DS and the Wii are "supposed" to be easier to control and, personally, I think they are (most of the time, of course ).

Anyway, you shouldn't concern yourself so much. I doubt the game's sword fighting difficulty will be that hard, except, perhaps, for boss battles (and against Dark Link!! ). I mean, it won't be like playing Swordfight in Wii Sports Resort on level 1300 (I still can't get past this point >.<).

 

[athenian200]

Wow, you actually think that? :hmm:

I mean, one of the main purposes for the creation of the Nintendo DS and the Wii is exactly to make the controls more straight forward so casual players can have an easier time getting the hopes of it. Instead of inputting a complicated sequence of buttons and directions, you just swing your hand/arm. This means that the DS and the Wii are "supposed" to be easier to control and, personally, I think they are (most of the time, of course ).

Anyway, you shouldn't concern yourself so much. I doubt the game's sword fighting difficulty will be that hard, except, perhaps, for boss battles (and against Dark Link!! ). I mean, it won't be like playing Swordfight in Wii Sports Resort on level 1300 (I still can't get past this point >.<).

Well, the thing is, I actually have rather poor spatial skills and somewhat lousy handwriting. Thus, I'm significantly poorer at the skills this game will likely call on, and they will stress me out more than they would normal people. The majority of people are a lot better than me at those things.

I've been using a keyboard and mouse since I was 7, and I find buttons a lot more intuitive and easier to use than anything that involves using my whole body. It's probably more a reflection of my personal limitations. Video games were the one thing I used to be able to do in spite of those limitations, and now they're catering to the majority instead of people like me. Which means I'll just have to go back to books and movies...

 

[Majora's Cat]

I'd give Shigeru Miyamoto some credit on Skyward Sword. These new gameplay mechanics spell out a whole new future for Zelda - no gimmicks involved, too. Link's swordplay mechanics in SS are a great edition to the Zelda franchise and will once again revolutionize gaming as Zelda is known to do. I really love the idea of strategizing more to defeat the enemies. If there was one thing that I would complain about the 3D Zelda games, it's this: the enemies are always a cakewalk (unless it's a Darknut or Ironknuckle). I have always had a problem with this wimpy enemies. Now that the new motion controls are being inserted int the game, fighting will be more realistic and more pleasing as well. But the most important part is that it will be more difficult.

That being said, I'm immensley looking forward to Skyward Sword. It spells out a new generation of gaming - it shows the potential of future gaming. I love, love, love it. Even a simple deku baba's difficulty level seems to be dramatically improved. The fact that Miyamoto struggled to fend off a few simple enemies can only mean one thing - Zelda enemies are being kicked up a notch.

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Actually, yes, I do like the new combat system. I like that it is new, and will also bring a new feeling with it.

 

[Xinnamin]

I'm willing to bet that with the new more precise motion demands that some enemies in this game may require, that there will also be a larger learning curve. In other words, the first bunch of enemies you meet, and even the first boss, will likely be incredibly straightforward in terms of fighting style, and you'll have a chance to get used to using the controls. I am reminded of the pumpkin-headed scarecrows in TP that I used to love practicing my hidden skills and whatnot on. They may have things like that again, or just start the game off with a lot of easy enemies that act as tutorials for getting used to the motion controls.

From experience with Wii Sports Resort, I doubt that the swordplay will be too effective with just wrist motions, though the simple/common enemies can probably be taken care of in that manner. The Wii Motion Plus is pretty sensitive, so even slight changes in the way you hold your hand/wrist/arm can make a big enough difference to hit the right angle. In addition, this IS Nintendo we're talking about, always trying to please the "casual" and younger audience bases. They likely won't make any enemies so hard that pinpoint hand eye coordination is needed, though I can imagine the bosses being much harder and requiring more precision.

All in all I'm really excited for the prospect of more pinpoint swordplay, as you could literally get through TP just flinging your arm about like a lunatic, which I hardly considered fun. They won't make every enemy extremely precise though, since that too would take away from the fun. The enemies we saw in the trailer, some of them only blocked in two ways or so, meaning you just had to figure out whether to do a vertical or horizontal slice, meaning it's more being able to pay attention than being able to execute complicated movements. The motion control worked really well in Wii Sports Resort, so I'm anticipating that the difficulty will be in seeing through opponent blocking patterns, not actually carrying out the swing.

 

[disturbed42]

I'm willing to bet that with the new more precise motion demands that some enemies in this game may require, that there will also be a larger learning curve. In other words, the first bunch of enemies you meet, and even the first boss, will likely be incredibly straightforward in terms of fighting style, and you'll have a chance to get used to using the controls.

What a logical explanation. I find myself completely dumbfounded that I haven't thought of that yet, lol. I'm thinking that this little "tutorial" in the beginning will be kinda like the demo people played at E3: there will be various enemies but they won't be hard, and the scorpion "boss" looked easy enough to kill (although you never know).

as you could literally get through TP just flinging your arm about like a lunatic, which I hardly considered fun.

I just about killed myself swinging my arm in TP. Not to mention after ten minutes of it I was screaming, "I'm done with you!!" at Link. Yeah....that was not fun. WMP will give me more control and precise sword-swinging (omg, hurray for the epicness!) so I won't get all ticked off at my game. >_>; I'll still look stupid, but not as stupid.

 

[athenian200]

The Wii Motion Plus is pretty sensitive, so even slight changes in the way you hold your hand/wrist/arm can make a big enough difference to hit the right angle.

I think that's what is ultimately going to frustrate me. I really do not like moving my arms, and I doubt I have enough room in my living room to do so safely, even if I wanted to.

I'm probably going to end up writing off SS, as well as any game that uses the MotionPlus... the only way I can use the Wii at all is by using my wrist instead of my arm on the games that allow it. If I actually have to move my arm, I just can't do that long enough to play games. It's unnatural to control a game that way.

If Wii hadn't had the Virtual Console, I might have gotten a PS3. I'll tell you right now, that backwards compatibility with the GCN, and the VC are what sold me on the Wii... if it had to stand alone, I would not have purchased it. But chances are that I would still be playing the GCN, hoping that Nintendo's next system was more usable.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I'd have to say Jo makes some pretty darn good points. Especially about the controls not being what the hard part should be.

But then again, it's sure to become second nature to you in time. Nobody's great at everything, and everybody can't start doing things just as well as the pros on their first try. With practice, everybody becomes better at things and chances are, you'll probably develop a good amount of skill with the controls by playing the game.

Also, I'm pretty sure people said the same thing about 3D gaming back in the day that they wouldn't be able to get the control scheme down and end up sucking. Now look at us, playing 3D games like they were second nature. In my opinion, that is the same case with these new motion controls: some of us will end up sucking at first, but eventually we'll all be playing the game like it was as natural as breathing to us.

Anyways, as for my opinion on the actual combat system, I'm all for it. :yes: I don't know how to describe what I think of it, I just know that I like the sound of it. To be honest, I'm nervous that I myself will end up doing badly with the controls, but I know that eventually, I'll get better until it's second nature to me.

 

[bradley]

I know this has already been said and personally I have no experience with the Wii MotionPlus, but I think that while it may be difficult at the beginning, you (and me and everyone else) will get better with practice. Also I share your problem of not having enough room in my living room. It's maybe 10 feet wall to wall. XD

 

[February Eve]

Undecided, but I know where you're coming from. On the one hand, I was unsure about the Wii controls for Twilight Princess, and while I've seen complaints about them, it turned out my uncertainties were unwarranted because to me they felt very intuitive. On the other hand, I'm a person who got through about four playthroughs of the same game before figuring out the back slice, heh. And on my third hand...wait, that doesn't work. Anyway, when I finally did get the hang of that skill I had a lot of fun with it. So with Skyward Sword, I suspect I'll have a steeper learning curve than others with the game but that it will be worth the effort. And like Xinnamin said, there will probably be tutorials, though I hope some of them are optional. When I finally do get the hang of the controls I wouldn't want to have to walk through them every single time I replay the game.

Also, I'm considering getting Wii Sports Resort for Christmas - or at least borrowing it from my sister. If I can't get the hang of it there, then I'll probably start to have reservations, but it may just take a little extra practice beforehand for me.