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A Link to the Past Needs to Be Retconned

Beauts

Rock and roll will never die
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Location
London, United Kingdom
Guys, OoT and ALttP are pretty much the same story but with a few changes. I would therefore say that yes, ignore the official timeline in this case. ALBW is basically a retcon of ALttP in a lot of respects, already. In terms of the sages all I can say is, OoT and ALttP's versions are pretty much interchangeable, so pick whichever version you prefer of the story of the sages and then just mentally make ALBW the sequel to either game. Then things make a lot of sense.
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Staff member
ZD Legend
Moderator
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
Gully, Zora Queen and Osalfa, each appear to be descendants of the Kokiri, Zoras, and Rauru respectively.
Just want to say right away that I don't see how you can assume Gully is of Kokiri descent when the game begins with you meeting his adult Hylian parents. Gully is a Hylian, same as Irene, same as Osfala, same as Impa, same as Rosso, and same as Seres. In fact, Oren is the only sage who isn't a Hylian in A Link Between Worlds.

The issue seems to be figuring out who these Seven Sages are actually descended from in the first place. A Link Between Worlds tells us it's the sages who sealed Ganon during the Imprisoning War and it's important to remember that we have never been shown that event once in the entire series. They did say that Ocarina of Time depicted the events at the time of that game's release but it has since been retconned in the Hyrule Historia.

Hyrule Historia tells us that it took place on the Hero Defeated timeline after Ganon defeated Link. According to the Historia, Ganondorf took the Triforce of Courage from him and then took the Triforce of Wisdom from Princess Zelda, transforming into Ganon. The Seven Sages then sealed him away to protect Hyrule. However, several years later, Ganon returned with an army of monsters. The Imprisoning War was fought to stop him and this is when the Seven Sages from which A Link Between World's sages are descended came along to seal the Sacred Realm.

The canon includes two separate sealings: one directly following the events of Ocarina of Time and another that occured several years afterwards. These two sealings were performed by two different groups of Sages; in other words, the Ocarina of Time sages have nothing to do with the A Link Between Worlds sages. Nothing in-game ever indicates that they do, as all reference to the ancestral sages refer to the events of the Imprisoning War when Ganon was sealed in the Dark World which did not exist at the time of Ocarina.

From the information presented in A Link to the Past we can see that the sages who acted during the Imprisoning War were all Hylian males, which means their descendants--the maidens--all being Hylians, too, isn't a contradiction. Neither are the sages of A Link Between Worlds a contradiction because they are all Hylian as well, with the one exception of Oren.

How a Zora comes to be the descendant of a Hylian is unclear but Sroa Link mentioned the only piece of information we have that could shed some light on it. Princess Ruto is clearly infatuated with Link and she seems to be serious about the marriage proposal since she even refers to herself as his fiancée seven years later. It's possible that Hylians and Zoras can produce offspring seeing as how it isn't an issue for her. And remember that she's the only child of the current king; having children would not only be something she would want, but something that is expected of her.

It could be interesting to note that the River Zoras--the grumpy looking, fireball spitting variety--only show up on the Hero Defeated timeline (with the exception of Four Swords Adventures) while Sea Zoras--the friendly, always-getting-frozen variety--never appear in Hyrule on that timeline (they do show up in Labrynna, though). I don't have an explanation for why they would appear in Four Swords Adventures but what of the possibility that River Zoras are the result of a Hylian and a Sea Zora mating? It's pure speculation of course but it could help explain why the River variety go on to entirely replace the Sea variety in Hyrule on an entire branch of the timeline, as well as clearing up the apparent contradiction that a Zora queen could not be descended from a Hylian sage.

Nothing in the timeline needs to be retconned at all. A Link Between Worlds raises the question of how a Zora could be descended from a Hylain, but then what game in the series doesn't raise strange questions like that? Just because we don't have a concrete answer doesn't mean there isn't one. Everything else that is said about the sages in A Link Between Worlds fits in to the establihsed canon with no issues and so there does not need to be a retcon, nor is A Link Between Worlds a retcon in itself; it makes it abundantly clear that A Link to the Past was a separate and very real event in history.
 

Salem

SICK
Joined
May 18, 2013
Just want to say right away that I don't see how you can assume Gully is of Kokiri descent when the game begins with you meeting his adult Hylian parents. Gully is a Hylian, same as Irene, same as Osfala, same as Impa, same as Rosso, and same as Seres. In fact, Oren is the only sage who isn't a Hylian in A Link Between Worlds.

The issue seems to be figuring out who these Seven Sages are actually descended from in the first place. A Link Between Worlds tells us it's the sages who sealed Ganon during the Imprisoning War and it's important to remember that we have never been shown that event once in the entire series. They did say that Ocarina of Time depicted the events at the time of that game's release but it has since been retconned in the Hyrule Historia.

Hyrule Historia tells us that it took place on the Hero Defeated timeline after Ganon defeated Link. According to the Historia, Ganondorf took the Triforce of Courage from him and then took the Triforce of Wisdom from Princess Zelda, transforming into Ganon. The Seven Sages then sealed him away to protect Hyrule. However, several years later, Ganon returned with an army of monsters. The Imprisoning War was fought to stop him and this is when the Seven Sages from which A Link Between World's sages are descended came along to seal the Sacred Realm.

The canon includes two separate sealings: one directly following the events of Ocarina of Time and another that occured several years afterwards. These two sealings were performed by two different groups of Sages; in other words, the Ocarina of Time sages have nothing to do with the A Link Between Worlds sages. Nothing in-game ever indicates that they do, as all reference to the ancestral sages refer to the events of the Imprisoning War when Ganon was sealed in the Dark World which did not exist at the time of Ocarina.

From the information presented in A Link to the Past we can see that the sages who acted during the Imprisoning War were all Hylian males, which means their descendants--the maidens--all being Hylians, too, isn't a contradiction. Neither are the sages of A Link Between Worlds a contradiction because they are all Hylian as well, with the one exception of Oren.
I had an idea that most of the sages in ALBW actually descend from Rauru. I mean think about it. He was already ancient, even in OoT's time. infact it's ver well possible that he had descendants living in OoT's time but it's possible they didn't know of their heritage. I mean with the passing of time, one's descendants only increase. Maybe Seres is like a descant cousin of ALBW's Zelda and the rest(exempt Impa and Oren) descend from Rauru. It's possible Yuga needed 7 desendats of the sages but it didn't matter which sages, otherwise wouldn't be easier for him to kidnap an old man like Sahasrahla instead of Osfala? I think it's only incidental that found Osfala in the Eastern Palace.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Just want to say right away that I don't see how you can assume Gully is of Kokiri descent when the game begins with you meeting his adult Hylian parents. Gully is a Hylian, same as Irene, same as Osfala, same as Impa, same as Rosso, and same as Seres. In fact, Oren is the only sage who isn't a Hylian in A Link Between Worlds.

The issue seems to be figuring out who these Seven Sages are actually descended from in the first place. A Link Between Worlds tells us it's the sages who sealed Ganon during the Imprisoning War and it's important to remember that we have never been shown that event once in the entire series. They did say that Ocarina of Time depicted the events at the time of that game's release but it has since been retconned in the Hyrule Historia.

Hyrule Historia tells us that it took place on the Hero Defeated timeline after Ganon defeated Link. According to the Historia, Ganondorf took the Triforce of Courage from him and then took the Triforce of Wisdom from Princess Zelda, transforming into Ganon. The Seven Sages then sealed him away to protect Hyrule. However, several years later, Ganon returned with an army of monsters. The Imprisoning War was fought to stop him and this is when the Seven Sages from which A Link Between World's sages are descended came along to seal the Sacred Realm.

The canon includes two separate sealings: one directly following the events of Ocarina of Time and another that occured several years afterwards. These two sealings were performed by two different groups of Sages; in other words, the Ocarina of Time sages have nothing to do with the A Link Between Worlds sages. Nothing in-game ever indicates that they do, as all reference to the ancestral sages refer to the events of the Imprisoning War when Ganon was sealed in the Dark World which did not exist at the time of Ocarina.

From the information presented in A Link to the Past we can see that the sages who acted during the Imprisoning War were all Hylian males, which means their descendants--the maidens--all being Hylians, too, isn't a contradiction. Neither are the sages of A Link Between Worlds a contradiction because they are all Hylian as well, with the one exception of Oren.

How a Zora comes to be the descendant of a Hylian is unclear but Sroa Link mentioned the only piece of information we have that could shed some light on it. Princess Ruto is clearly infatuated with Link and she seems to be serious about the marriage proposal since she even refers to herself as his fiancée seven years later. It's possible that Hylians and Zoras can produce offspring seeing as how it isn't an issue for her. And remember that she's the only child of the current king; having children would not only be something she would want, but something that is expected of her.

It could be interesting to note that the River Zoras--the grumpy looking, fireball spitting variety--only show up on the Hero Defeated timeline (with the exception of Four Swords Adventures) while Sea Zoras--the friendly, always-getting-frozen variety--never appear in Hyrule on that timeline (they do show up in Labrynna, though). I don't have an explanation for why they would appear in Four Swords Adventures but what of the possibility that River Zoras are the result of a Hylian and a Sea Zora mating? It's pure speculation of course but it could help explain why the River variety go on to entirely replace the Sea variety in Hyrule on an entire branch of the timeline, as well as clearing up the apparent contradiction that a Zora queen could not be descended from a Hylian sage.

Nothing in the timeline needs to be retconned at all. A Link Between Worlds raises the question of how a Zora could be descended from a Hylain, but then what game in the series doesn't raise strange questions like that? Just because we don't have a concrete answer doesn't mean there isn't one. Everything else that is said about the sages in A Link Between Worlds fits in to the establihsed canon with no issues and so there does not need to be a retcon, nor is A Link Between Worlds a retcon in itself; it makes it abundantly clear that A Link to the Past was a separate and very real event in history.
This post here makes a lot of sense, and I believe answers the question. I meant to stay out of posts about ALBW, because I haven't gotten the chance to play it yet unfortunately, but it helps answer questions I had about ALttP. The topic about Zoras is pretty interesting as well. :D I hope Nintendo explores this in the future.
 

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