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My Thoughts on the Official Timeline

Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Location
Idaho
That sounds reasonable, but what do you think triggered this particular split? I mean, we know how how the MM/TP timeline branched off from the WW/PH/ST timeline. Zelda sent Link back to the past to prevent Ganondorf's rise to power. If LttP is yet another timeline, it must have branched off at some time. But when and why?
Ganondorf successfully escaping his seal.
Hey! So you gave up on the linear timeline? This is a pretty good timeline. Like you, I believe that ALttP/LA go on the AT. But what is your explanation for FS/FSA being on a different place than TP? How did that split occur?
To explain my placement of FS/A, it takes place if Vaati escapes his seal from the Four Sword, eventually leading to Ganon being imprisoned in the Four Sword, which would prevent the events of TP, but I don't remember much about FSA. This would probably also depend on whether Ganondorf invades Hyrule or steals the Trident.
 
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Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
Ganondorf successfully escaping his seal.
Either he escapes his seal... or he doesn't. But to have both things happening in a split timeline, you need an event that creates this split. Something like time travel. If Ganon is freed by someone from the timeline in which he isn't freed, or if he is only staying in the seal because someone from a timeline in which he escapes prevents him from doing so, then you have a split. But nothing in the games so far suggests an event like that.

Ocarina of Time showed us how the Link who defeated a Ganondorf that had taken over the world got sent back in time to prevent him from taking over the world. On screen. An interview with Miyamoto and Aonuma confirmed that this is what split the timeline.

Until we get proof like that for your theory, there's no reason to assume that there are three timelines.
 
Joined
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Location
Idaho
Either he escapes his seal... or he doesn't. But to have both things happening in a split timeline, you need an event that creates this split. Something like time travel. If Ganon is freed by someone from the timeline in which he isn't freed, or if he is only staying in the seal because someone from a timeline in which he escapes prevents him from doing so, then you have a split. But nothing in the games so far suggests an event like that.

Ocarina of Time showed us how the Link who defeated a Ganondorf that had taken over the world got sent back in time to prevent him from taking over the world. On screen. An interview with Miyamoto and Aonuma confirmed that this is what split the timeline.

Until we get proof like that for your theory, there's no reason to assume that there are three timelines.
Yeah, no reason to assume, besides the fact that it is confirmed by overwhelming amounts of in-game evidence and developer quotes, not to mention Ocarina of Time is identical to the backstory of A Link to the Past. The same can not be said for Four Swords Adventures.
I don't understand why you need more proof than I have given you anyway. He was obviously trying to escape his seal, or else they would not have needed a seal. Any event could have caused him to succeed or fail at breaking his seal. It does not need any explanations.
 

Steve

5/19/13
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Location
Florida
This still leaves the Four Swords and Oracle games to add. One could consider them official parts of the timeline, or separate games. If I were to add them to the timeline, I would do it like this:

-----------__/WW/PH-ST
----------/--\ALttP/
OoS/OoA/LA-LoZ/AoL
MC-SS-OoT|
----------\----/FS/FSA

-----------
\MM|
---------------\TP


What does everybody think of this timeline? As far as I can tell, no developer quotes or in-game evidence are contradicted. Any comments, questions, or constructive criticisms are welcome.
Yes, I would love to know what evidence you have that supports the branching from Majora's Mask, and The Wind Waker/A Link to the Past.
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
Yeah, no reason to assume, besides the fact that it is confirmed by overwhelming amounts of in-game evidence...
Do you have examples?
...and developer quotes,...
Any links? Because in interviews with Aonuma (back when TP came out, which was after FSA), he was speaking of two timelines. Not three.
not to mention Ocarina of Time is identical to the backstory of A Link to the Past. The same can not be said for Four Swords Adventures.
But there is nothing where FSA contradicts LttP or OoT.
I don't understand why you need more proof than I have given you anyway.
Because I have yet to see any proof.
He was obviously trying to escape his seal, or else they would not have needed a seal.
Well, yeah. That part is obvious.
Any event could have caused him to succeed or fail at breaking his seal. It does not need any explanations.
It does when you're trying to use that as evidence for a split timeline.

Look. I don't want to seem negative for negativity's sake. But you don't understand what my problem with your theory is. For a timeline to split, you need an event that splits it. Either on screen in one of the games or in an interview with the producers. In the case of the Young Link/Adult Link timeline split after OoT, we had both. In your case, all we have is you saying that FSA doesn't fit with LttP.

And that's just not enough to convince me of a third timeline.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Location
Idaho
Do you have examples?
Read the entire backstory of A Link to the Past.
Any links? Because in interviews with Aonuma (back when TP came out, which was after FSA), he was speaking of two timelines. Not three.
He never mentions any number of timelines, or even a split timeline. All he says is that WW takes place after the adult ending of OoT while TP takes place after the child ending, and that they are parallels. It seems to me that you are the one who needs to provide proof, since none of the developers said anything about WW replacing ALttP as a distant sequel to OoT's adult ending, although a quote like that would not disprove my theory. I am also pretty sure that Anouma stated that FSA was originally going to be the seal war, but that was changed. So, if you go by developer quotes, you have to place the entire Seal War between FSA and AlLttP.
But there is nothing where FSA contradicts LttP or OoT.
And there is nowhere where ALttP contradicts OoT. Besides, putting ALttP after FSA requires a whole lot of speculation.
Because I have yet to see any proof.
OoT was an establishe prequel to ALttP. the only time people started questioning that was when WW was released.
It does when you're trying to use that as evidence for a split timeline.
What do you want me to do, make something up? There is an infinite number of possibilites for the outcome of any given event. Quantum theory proves deciding to do something even as small as saying "tuh-maw-toh" instead of "tuh-may-toh" can change the course of the universe.

Look. I don't want to seem negative for negativity's sake. But you don't understand what my problem with your theory is. For a timeline to split, you need an event that splits it. Either on screen in one of the games or in an interview with the producers. In the case of the Young Link/Adult Link timeline split after OoT, we had both. In your case, all we have is you saying that FSA doesn't fit with LttP.

And that's just not enough to convince me of a third timeline.
Are you claiming that my timeline requires too much speculation, when putting FSA before ALttP requires Ganon to escape the Four Sword seal and get sealed in the Dark World, all of which does not take place in any game? With this reasoning, I would need evidence of what caused him to escape the seal in WW.
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
Read the entire backstory of A Link to the Past.
That backstory says nothing about a split timeline. Neither does it say anything about games that came out after Link to the Past, which is what this is all about. "Overwhelming amounts of in-game information" this isn't.

He never mentions any number of timelines, or even a split timeline. All he says is that WW takes place after the adult ending of OoT while TP takes place after the child ending, and that they are parallels.

Two parallels, one leading to WW, one leading to TP? How is that not a split timeline?

It seems to me that you are the one who needs to provide proof, since none of the developers said anything about WW replacing ALttP as a distant sequel to OoT's adult ending, although a quote like that would not disprove my theory.
Wait, what? WW replacing ALttP? Distant sequel? What are you talking about? WW replacing ALttP has nothing to do with anything, least of all a split timeline. You confuse me. ALttP (and LoZ, and AoL, and most likely LA) happens somewhere after Twilight Princess.

I am also pretty sure that Anouma stated that FSA was originally going to be the seal war, but that was changed. So, if you go by developer quotes, you have to place the entire Seal War between FSA and AlLttP.
Which, again, has nothing to do with an ominous third timeline.

And there is nowhere where ALttP contradicts OoT. Besides, putting ALttP after FSA requires a whole lot of speculation.
Less speculation than pulling a third timeline out of thin air?

What do you want me to do, make something up? There is an infinite number of possibilites for the outcome of any given event. Quantum theory proves deciding to do something even as small as saying "tuh-maw-toh" instead of "tuh-may-toh" can change the course of the universe.
Then show me where Link said tuh-maw-toh. Show me what exactly led to Ganon's escape changing the course of the universe. That's all I ask for. And that's what you still fail to deliver.

Are you claiming that my timeline requires too much speculation, when putting FSA before ALttP requires Ganon to escape the Four Sword seal and get sealed in the Dark World, all of which does not take place in any game? With this reasoning, I would need evidence of what caused him to escape the seal in WW.
Look, I never said that FSA happens immediately before ALttP. I'm just saying that there are two timelines after OoT. I'm not sure if FSA happens on the WW string of events, in the TP dimension or even before OoT. I'm just saying that for me to buy into a "third timeline" theory, you need to produce more proof. Because as of right now, yes it does require too much speculation.
 

DuckNoises

Gone (Wind) Fishin'
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
Montreal, QC, Canada
What do you want me to do, make something up? There is an infinite number of possibilites for the outcome of any given event. Quantum theory proves deciding to do something even as small as saying "tuh-maw-toh" instead of "tuh-may-toh" can change the course of the universe.
So far, the only reason that there have been splits in any timeline is due to the fact that there was time travel involved, shown to alter the space-time continuum, entirely in-game. I'm afraid the notion that anything and everything could cause a split doesn't work, because that would be horrendously impractical for any timeline, and then splits would occur everywhere and anywhere. If that were the case, there would be no convincing evidence for whether or not a split occurred anywhere, because they would occur an infinite number of times. The point being that splits have only occurred when they have been relevant and necessary to the timeline. Sure, there are gaps in every timeline, but that's only because not every game meshes together perfectly, and that's something that has to be accepted as a theorist. That's what theorizing is all about -- finding where games go.

Are you claiming that my timeline requires too much speculation, when putting FSA before ALttP requires Ganon to escape the Four Sword seal and get sealed in the Dark World, all of which does not take place in any game? With this reasoning, I would need evidence of what caused him to escape the seal in WW.
We don't need reasoning to explain how Ganondorf broke the Seal of the Seven Sages in between OoT and TWW because it's not relevant to any argument; we know that it happens, and it's stated in-game. That's sufficient.
And there is nowhere where ALttP contradicts OoT. Besides, putting ALttP after FSA requires a whole lot of speculation.
I'll grant you that; FSA makes very little sense. However, there have been numerous things in ALttP that have been retconned. I highly suggest you read this article by Mosley, as it might shed some light on why there's been such disagreement:
http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?7315-The-Seal-War-and-the-Zelda-Timeline&highlight=Seal
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
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Location
Redmond, Washington
Wait, what? WW replacing ALttP? Distant sequel? What are you talking about? WW replacing ALttP has nothing to do with anything, least of all a split timeline. You confuse me. ALttP (and LoZ, and AoL, and most likely LA) happens somewhere after Twilight Princess.
The timeline before WW was OoT-LttP-etc. After WW came out, it became OoT-WW. WW took the place of OoT as its distant sequel. Some people moved LttP to the CT at this point in an attempt to place it somewhere. Its CT placement is not fact. It could be on the AT, it could even still be tied to OoT as Bradley suggests for all we know.

I don't know if this is what bradley is getting at, but I see those additional splits not as in-[multi/uni]verse splits as OoTs was, but as arbitrary alternate events outside the story created by the devs. There's no in-game action to create those splits, there's no 'what ifs' involved. It's just "WW goes after OoT. LttP goes after OoT too. WW and LttP are incompatible but oh well."
I really liked bradley's method and what he said in his first post. Maybe if you ignore that final overarching timeline he posted at the end and instead focus on the many timelines ("OoT-LttP" "OoT-WW" "OoT-TP" etc) you won't get the false impression that those are actual splits in the timeline and see that they're actually separate timelines altogether.
However, I don't like what bradley's saying now about what-ifs. I don't think a timeline can split in-game by saying "if Ganon escapes the seal this timeline happens, if Ganon doesn't this one happens." Rather, the opposite is true. "If you look at this timeline, Ganon escapes. If you look at the other timeline, Ganon doesn't escape."


Sorry, reading DN's ninja-post (yes, it took me 13+ minutes to post this...) combined what I posted above made me want to do this:
[troll]
.............../-WW/PH-ST
............../-LttP/[OoX-like story in which Zelda already knows Link]/LA
............./-[LttP-like story in which Zelda never meets Link]/OoX/LA
............/-[LttP-like story in which Ganon is not killed]-LoZ/AoL
SS-OoT<
............\MM-TP
..................\[TP-like story in which Ganondorf is not killed]-FS/FSA (not sure where MC would go)
Here we go, let's use 'what-ifs' to explain away every inconsistency in the timeline!
[/troll]
Obviously this is not what you intended, since your splits are just from developer retcons.
 
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Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Location
Idaho
That backstory says nothing about a split timeline. Neither does it say anything about games that came out after Link to the Past, which is what this is all about. "Overwhelming amounts of in-game information" this isn't.
It is simply a different approach he takes to escaping. Perhaps he was somehow thwarted when he tried to escape the first time, so ALttP was a later attempt. It could have been anything that thwarted his attempt and does not need to be made up. Developer quotes confirm that OoT is a prequel to ALttP. There is nothing to suggest it was somehow changed.

Two parallels, one leading to WW, one leading to TP? How is that not a split timeline?
I never said it wasn't a split timeline. I said Anouma never mentioned a 'split timeline' by name. He also never said there was only one parallel to TP.

Wait, what? WW replacing ALttP? Distant sequel? What are you talking about? WW replacing ALttP has nothing to do with anything, least of all a split timeline. You confuse me. ALttP (and LoZ, and AoL, and most likely LA) happens somewhere after Twilight Princess.
WW replacing ALttP has everything to do with everything, since you are arguing against the alternate timeline. Also, you are providing no evidence that ALttP goes anytime after TP.
Which, again, has nothing to do with an ominous third timeline.
It does when you're trying to argue that placing the entire Seal War between FSA and ALttP requires less speculation than one event leading into a different set of games.
Less speculation than pulling a third timeline out of thin air?
Many times less. The timeline itself requires no speculation at all, only the small event that caused it. By the way, its not out of thin air.
Then show me where Link said tuh-maw-toh. Show me what exactly led to Ganon's escape changing the course of the universe. That's all I ask for. And that's what you still fail to deliver.
This is where I do not need to deliver, and why does Link have to be the one that changes the future?
Look, I never said that FSA happens immediately before ALttP. I'm just saying that there are two timelines after OoT. I'm not sure if FSA happens on the WW string of events, in the TP dimension or even before OoT. I'm just saying that for me to buy into a "third timeline" theory, you need to produce more proof. Because as of right now, yes it does require too much speculation.
I am not trying to brag, but I've never seen another timeline theory that requires less speculation than this one. Whenever I defeat the arguments that you use. You basically say "whatever but you're still wrong." Please try to provide some counterarguments of your own. I do not need to prove my timeline; you just need to disprove it.
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
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Location
Cologne, Germany
It is simply a different approach he takes to escaping. Perhaps he was somehow thwarted when he tried to escape the first time, so ALttP was a later attempt. It could have been anything that thwarted his attempt and does not need to be made up.
Emphasis mine, to highlight that you're still presenting speculation and try to pass it off as facts.

Developer quotes confirm that OoT is a prequel to ALttP. There is nothing to suggest it was somehow changed.
And I never doubted that OoT is a prequel to ALttP. But that doesn't mean that ALttP is the immediate successor. There could be 30 games in-betwen, and OoT would still be a Prequel.

I never said it wasn't a split timeline. I said Anouma never mentioned a 'split timeline' by name. He also never said there was only one parallel to TP.
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Split_Timeline_Theory
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
AND
Interviewer: When does Twilight Princess take place? Eiji Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later. Interviewer: And The Wind Waker? Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...
WW replacing ALttP has everything to do with everything, since you are arguing against the alternate timeline. Also, you are providing no evidence that ALttP goes anytime after TP.
We both agree on ALttP happening after OoT. Aonuma said that there were two endings and two parallel (timelines) after that. So LttP is either on the Wind Waker or the Twilight Princess timeline. But it can't be Wind Waker. Hyrule was destroyed in that timeline. Later, the Hero of Wind and Tetra together discover a new continent, with the Tower of Spirits in the middle. It is clearly a different continent than the Hyrule of OoT, TP, LttP and LoZ.

It does when you're trying to argue that placing the entire Seal War between FSA and ALttP requires less speculation than one event leading into a different set of games.
We have yet to see the Seal War in an actual game. Until that happens, we can't say for sure when and how that went down.

Many times less. The timeline itself requires no speculation at all, only the small event that caused it. By the way, its not out of thin air.
If it isn't then you shouldn't have a problem with presenting actual evidence.

This is where I do not need to deliver, and why does Link have to be the one that changes the future?
Link doesn't have to. But someone has to change the future to make another, third timeline to branch off from one of the other ones.

I am not trying to brag, but I've never seen another timeline theory that requires less speculation than this one. Whenever I defeat the arguments that you use. You basically say "whatever but you're still wrong." Please try to provide some counterarguments of your own. I do not need to prove my timeline; you just need to disprove it.
You are the one who invented the "third timeline" theory that clashes with official interviews and the timeline models fans and pros alike agree on.

My counterarguments are:
Aonuma speaks of two endings to OoT and both WW and TP being sequels, but parallel to each other. He never mentions a third timeline, and no game yet has shown any events that could have created a third timeline.
 
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Hylian Knight

Green Armored Menace
Joined
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Location
Florida
How can OoT be before AlttP when Navi says that Legendary Blade refering to the Master Sword when the Master Sword to my knowledge isn't referred in any LoZ game until AlttP.
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
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Location
Cologne, Germany
You're confusing internal chronology of the games and the order in which they were released. The origin of the Master Sword is explained in SWS, which hasn't even come out yet. It is then used in various games, until we eventually reach A Link to the Past, which came out before the others, but takes place after them.
 

Hylian Knight

Green Armored Menace
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Location
Florida
In case if it was unclear this part of one of your post is what confused me.

"We both agree on ALttP happening after OoT."
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
I fail to see what confuses you. OoT happens before ALttP. ALttP happens after OoT. Sure OoT was released a couple of years later, but they outright said in interviews that OoT happens before ALttP. Just like they are now saying that SWS will be the first game in the timeline.

Also, think of movies like Star Wars. Episode IV was relases in 1977. Episode III was released in 2005. And yet III clearly happens before IV.
 

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