My Rebuttal to Nintendo's New Timeline...

[ZestanorLink]

Hey y'all. I haven't been here in a while, and I certainly have never made a thread here. However, the only area in the forums that I regularly lurked were the theories section. It was great fun for me to read all the debates between people here. When I first discovered the forums two summers ago, I went through basically every good timeline thread that had been written here. Much of my influence came from Caleb, of Asui's big ol' timeline discussion thread, where you all placed the games one by one into an order (a split timeline.) Whenever I talk about "my timeline," I'm really talking about that one, and some influence from others, like Mr. Mosley.
Without further ado, here's a good quote:

I don't think that the full explanation has reached the general Western Zelda comminity, however it seems like the "Downfall Timeline" is the events that take place if/when OoT Link is defeated by Ganondorf in the future.

It is possible to claim that the DT is a "what if"-story and that the Classics have been abandoned. It is also possible to argue that the AT and the CT are the "what ifs", for the Classic games existed prior to OoT. Another idea is that they are all equally "what if", for they are only fictional stories.

However, my view on this matter is like this:

These games exist in their own "superreality", i.e. the univsere where the stories of the Zeldaverse take place. They are not real, for they are only fiction. The games are, however, real to the in-game universe.

--------------------/---WW/PH---ST
SS---TMC/FS---OoT
--------------------\MM---TP---FSA

The DT exists in its own "hyperreality", i.e. they exist to themsemselves, but not to the general superreality of the normal games.

SS---TMC/FS---OoT---AlttP/OoX/LA---LoZ/AoL

tl;dr The DT is real to itself, but "less" real than the AT and the CT.

/Blue Window

This is basically how I feel about the new timeline. I applaud Nintendo for trying. It's a start. But I don't think the 2D games are getting the love they deserve. so we're strip Nintendo's timeline back down to what is generally accepted. (I'll put SS in there too, even though I'm not done playing through it.)

------/--WW/PH--ST
SS--OoT
------\MM--TP

Even Nintendo agrees with this. In my opinion, the AT is done, so in order to make this less messy, I'm gonna omit the AT until the very end.

SS--OoT/MM--TP

That's clean. Now back to the so-called "DT." I feel that any timeline can be explained away with "New Ganon/revived Ganon." Therefore, you could really put all the games in any which order, and still kinda be able to prove it. That's why I feel that an "alternate universe" situation can be avoided, if you allow a new Ganondorf. He died in TP, but he has a spiritual successor of sorts in FSA. Even Nintendo agrees with this. So FSA comes after TP, with a new Dorfy.

SS--OoT/MM--TP--FSA

I don't care what they say, FSA is a direct sequel to FS, and ages pass between MC and FS. In FSA's intro video, the term used is "Ages flowed by" between MC and FS. Then the intro tells that Zelda's childhood friend Link defeated Vaati, who had broken free. Rarely do they mention Link by name inside of a game. The next scene shows Zelda calling Link by name in a dream. Then the game begins. Also, I used to argue against putting MC at the beginning, since OoT had held that honor, but now that SS comes before, I don't have a problem with it. I would like to keep the CT as short as possible, based on Occam's Razor, so in the "Ages [that] flowed by," why couldn't other stories occur? Here we go:

SS--MC--OoT/MM--TP--FS/FSA

That's the first half of the CT, including relatively new games. In fact, you could almost consider the FSX games to be a reboot, since there is a new Ganondorf. He steals the Trident, but then is defeated and sealed inside the Four Sword. The fact that you fought him as "Ganon" the pig doesn't matter. I think it was kinda like in OoT when Ganondorf assumed the Pig Form as a last ditch effort. So Ganondorf is sealed within the Four Sword. Also, the Dark World from FSA is not the same as the one from ALttP, since FSA is not the Seal War.

The second half of the CT (in my book) consists of the "Downfall Timeline."

[SW]--ALttP/LA--[sleeping Zelda]--LoZ/AoL--OoX

First is the Seal War, which is neither OoT nor FSA. ALttP follows up on the Seal War, and Ganon dies. LA fits nicely right afterwards. Ganon (not Dorf) is somehow revived for LoZ, then he gets killed again. His minions attempt to revive him once more in AoL, but fail. There is another plot to revive Ganon in OoX, but it fails too. Now on the subject of the Sleeping Zelda Legend from AoL, I believe that this happens after ALttP. I know that the legend said this, "From then on, all princesses of Hyrule were to be named Zelda." One might think that that places the legend before every other game, but no. Maybe in every game before there was a princess Zelda, but doesn't mean that her mother or daughter was also named Zelda.

Now if we put the two halves together:

SS--MC--OoT/MM--TP--FS/FSA--[Oddity]/[SW]--ALttP/LA--[Sleeping Zelda]--LoZ/AoL--OoX

In development, FSA was to be the SW, but that fell through. Between the two halves of the CT, something has to happen. At the end of FSA, Ganondorf is sealed within the Four Sword. In the Seal War, he is a leader of thieves who wished on the Triforce but is then sealed within his corrupted Sacred Realm. Something Odd has to happen between these two. Ganon goes from the Four Sword to thief leader to Dark World. Here's a possibility, using ideas from the GBA remake of ALttP:

The Four Sword (with Ganondorf sealed) is moved to the Sacred Realm for safety. Ganondorf, fully conscious within the Four Sword, and still in control of the Trident, manages to control a remaining Shadow Link to appear within the Palace of the Four Sword and draw the blade (this Shadow Link splits into four and you can fight him on the GBA). He is now free! Kinda. He roams the Sacred Realm for ages, and eventually, he finally discovers an exit back to the real world. He settles in with a race of evil thieves, of which he becomes the leader. He hears about the Legend of the Triforce that is in the Sacred Realm, but out of complete chance, he finds the opening to the Sacred Realm again, and you can read the rest here: Clicky Clicky.

That's my little fan-fiction. It could have happened.

--------------/--WW/PH--ST
SS--TMC--OoT
--------------\MM--TP--FS/FSA--[?+SW]--ALttP/LA--[AoL BS]--LoZ/AoL--OoX

That's the timeline I've always believed in.


-------------------------------/--WW/PH--ST
SS--[AoL BS]--TMC/FS--OoT
----------------------------|--\MM--TP--FSA
----------------------------\[SW, OoT is the SW in this Timeline]--AlttP/OoX/LA--LoZ/AoL


And this is Nintedo's new official royal bow-down-to-me-or-be-shunned-by-my-blind-followers timeline of epic sauce, or something. Well, I don't accept it. Shun me! I acknowledge its presence, and I respect those that wish to be loyal to it. However, if I ever argue for the Zelda Timeline, it will not be the Tri-Split, it will be the single split.

Quick note, Link doesn't know Zelda in OoX, so it couldn't be a direct sequel to ALttP.
----

Alright, hack away! To be honest, there are a few games I haven't played, for example FSA, and a lot of my timeline linking is based on that. But please, no back-handed comments about how some ZeldaDungeoners are stupid for not accepting the official timeline. Also, keep in mind I haven't been part of this forum community in while.

Hack away! :yes:

 

[TheGermanLegend]

I totaly agree with you about accepting the so-called "official" timeline.

But there is one thing about your timeline that I realy disagree!

In development, FSA was to be the SW, but that fell through. Between the two halves of the CT, something has to happen. At the end of FSA, Ganondorf is sealed within the Four Sword. In the Seal War, he is a leader of thieves who wished on the Triforce but is then sealed within his corrupted Sacred Realm. Something Odd has to happen between these two. Ganon goes from the Four Sword to thief leader to Dark World. Here's a possibility, using ideas from the GBA remake of ALttP:

The Four Sword (with Ganondorf sealed) is moved to the Sacred Realm for safety. Ganondorf, fully conscious within the Four Sword, and still in control of the Trident, manages to control a remaining Shadow Link to appear within the Palace of the Four Sword and draw the blade (this Shadow Link splits into four and you can fight him on the GBA). He is now free! Kinda. He roams the Sacred Realm for ages, and eventually, he finally discovers an exit back to the real world. He settles in with a race of evil thieves, of which he becomes the leader. He hears about the Legend of the Triforce that is in the Sacred Realm, but out of complete chance, he finds the opening to the Sacred Realm again, and you can read the rest here: Clicky Clicky.

Placing FSA after TP means Ganon(dorf) already tried three times to conquer Hyrule. Two times he used the ToP. Why would they ever put the Four Sword with him sealed in the sacred land where the Trifoce is hidden. It's like putting a criminal in a gun store instead of a jail ;D

 

[ZestanorLink]

More like putting a criminal in jail where rumor has it that there is a gun hidden somewhere. And the criminal doesn't know about the gun. The only reason I said "The Four Sword (with Ganondorf sealed) is moved to the Sacred Realm for safety." is because that is where the Four Sword is in the ALttP remake, and ALttP chronologically comes next according to my timeline. I guess you could say that the Four Sword was moved after Ganondorf broke free. Maybe after sealing the now-turned Dark World, the sages wanted to further seal Ganon back within the Four Sword, so they moved it to the palace within the sacred realm, but I can write fan-fiction all day! Remember this is a different Ganondorf than TP, and he has no reason to know anything about the Triforce.

This is something I was meaning to post years ago, but I never felt like writing it out. I feel that most of the questions will be about my little made-up section, but that's okay with me!

 

[Shadao]

The problem with FSA Ganondorf is that he is still the power-hungry Gerudo thief with an unbalanced heart. Meaning that the Triforce would split again and Ganondorf has to find them again for Alttp, Ganon has the full triforce. If FSA Ganondorf had a balanced heart, then I believe he wouldn't have wished to rule the world.

 

[ZestanorLink]

I don't know why Ganon still has the whole Triforce in ALttP. Apparently his heart was balanced. If ALttP's Ganon' heart was balanced enough for the Triforce, why couldn't FSA's Ganon's be too? You do realize that he only touches the Triforce once in my timeline?

 

[TheGermanLegend]

You do realize that he only touches the Triforce once in my timeline?

How does he get it in LoZ?

 

[Shadao]

I don't know why Ganon still has the whole Triforce in ALttP. Apparently his heart was balanced. If ALttP's Ganon' heart was balanced enough for the Triforce, why couldn't FSA's Ganon's be too? You do realize that he only touches the Triforce once in my timeline?

The only way to obtain the whole Triforce without it spliting is to have a balance of courage, power, and wisdom. Ganon is not the type of person to have a balanced heart. The only way Ganon can obtain the Triforce whole is to find the other bearers and bring them together. Then he has to defeat them to summond the Triforce back to him, which now he can hold on for the rest of his life. Which is where the Downfall Timeline comes in. As the player, Link always wins. Ganondorf has no chance of obtaining the Triforce unless he wins the battle. The only other time Ganon was successful in uniting the Triforce is Wind Waker, where he knocks out Link and Zelda, but never made a wish.

 

[ZestanorLink]

In response to The German Legend:
I meant to say, "You do realize that this Ganon only touches the Triforce once between FSA and ALttP on my timeline?" Sorry, I should have clarified. It sounded like he was implying that Ganon touched it after FSA, and again before the SW.

The only way to obtain the whole Triforce without it spliting is to have a balance of courage, power, and wisdom. Ganon is not the type of person to have a balanced heart. The only way Ganon can obtain the Triforce whole is to find the other bearers and bring them together. Then he has to defeat them to summond the Triforce back to him, which now he can hold on for the rest of his life. Which is where the Downfall Timeline comes in. As the player, Link always wins. Ganondorf has no chance of obtaining the Triforce unless he wins the battle. The only other time Ganon was successful in uniting the Triforce is Wind Waker, where he knocks out Link and Zelda, but never made a wish.

That SHOULD be the case, but when ALttP was made and the Seal War story was written, the Triforce didn't split under those conditions. However, we've known that for years. I think you're trying to argue OoT as the Seal War of the 3rd split timeline, which it kinda works for. But I don't use the tri-split. For some reason, the Triforce didn't split when Ganon got it, and he was able to continue to use it. When OoT came out, they contradicted this, but that's just a plot hole that we generally overlook.

 

[Shadao]

If Ganon touched the Triforce only once between FSA and ALttP, then he would have only have the Triforce of Power unless he either has a balanced heart or search for the other pieces. FSA Ganon has no balanced heart as he raided a sacred pyramid for Trident that contains power. This would mean he would have find the other triforce pieces again before he starts the invasion and the Imprisoning War. In a sense, it basically OoT repeated except he gets the Triforce.

This is why Nintendo placed the old classic games in a timeline where OoT Link was defeated. The event that explains your timeline would be very similar to the original OoT and thus any games based on that event would be considered a rehash of OoT. Nintendo wanted a place to make games with new ideas with no burdens of the timeline. Originally Twlight Princess was going to connect ALttp, such as placing the Master Sword at the Sacred Grove. But it ended being its own game with its own direction which really is what Zelda games are like. If a new Zelda game were come out of 2D Child Timeline, it faces confusion and snarls of when this game takes place instead of sitting in comfort as sequel to TP or FSA.

Edit:

That SHOULD be the case, but when ALttP was made and the Seal War story was written, the Triforce didn't split under those conditions. However, we've known that for years. I think you're trying to argue OoT as the Seal War of the 3rd split timeline, which it kinda works for. But I don't use the tri-split. For some reason, the Triforce didn't split when Ganon got it, and he was able to continue to use it. When OoT came out, they contradicted this, but that's just a plot hole that we generally overlook.

Originally, ALttp doesn't established the rule that the Triforce splits when a man with an unbalanced heart makes a wish of it. Thus it is natural that Ganon would have the full Triforce in ALttp and proof of it is shown at the ending. But OoT is a prequel to ALttp and the Triforce was split into three and never reunited at the end. This is a massive plot-hole that has to be addressed. Ganon could not simply just have the Triforce of Power and then suddenly gained the other two pieces of the Triforce. There must have been an event where Ganon got the other two pieces. While one could argue that FSA Ganon got the whole Triforce, he doesn't have a balanced heart and thus would repeat the events of the adult timeline that OoT Link prevented from happening.

 

[ZestanorLink]

If Ganon touched the Triforce only once between FSA and ALttP,

Correct

then he would have only have the Triforce of Power

He SHOULD, but this rule wasn't invented until Nintendo made OoT.

unless he either has a balanced heart

Because he wasn't that,

or search for the other pieces.

Or that, and yet still was in control of the entire Triforce,

FSA Ganon has no balanced heart as he raided a sacred pyramid for Trident that contains power.

Even though he was unbalanced.

This would mean he would have find the other triforce pieces again before he starts the invasion and the Imprisoning War. In a sense, it basically OoT repeated except he gets the Triforce. This is why Nintendo placed the old classic games in a timeline where OoT Link was defeated. The event that explains your timeline would be very similar to the original OoT and thus any games based on that event would considered a rehash of OoT.

Makes sense, but you are trying to twist the Seal War too much so that it fits OoT. The people knew that the entire Triforce was in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf and his evil thieves accidentally stumbled upon the entrance to that Sacred Realm, and inside they found the entire Triforce. He uses it to do his bidding, even though his heart is unbalanced, and the Sacred Realm becomes a Dark World because of his evil intent. He doesn't lose control over it until you kill him. No where in there did he gather all the pieces separately. From the Seal War till the end of ALttP, Ganon uses the power of the Triforce. It's a plot hole. The Triforce's rules don't apply throughout the Seal War and ALttP. I can't do anything about it.

Nintendo wanted a place to make games with no burdens of the timeline.

In the process, they alienate the games that made the series popular. With a little extra mindpower, they could have solved it without so much fan outcry. I have some ideas of where to place games: after ST, between any of the other games as long as it doesn't involve Ganon, after the Oracle games. We're so used to Ganon being revived, it's not really a problem for him to do it again anyway.

Originally Twlight Princess was going to connect ALttp, such as placing the Master Sword at the Sacred Grove. But it ended being its own game with its own direction which really is what Zelda games are like.

I didn't know that TP and ALttP were supposed to connect more... Do you have a source?

Originally, ALttp doesn't established the rule that the Triforce splits when a man with an unbalanced heart makes a wish of it. Thus it is natural that Ganon would have the full Triforce in ALttp and proof of it is shown at the ending.

Exactly!

But OoT is a prequel to ALttp and the Triforce was split into three and never reunited at the end. This is a massive plot-hole that has to be addressed.

In my timeline OoT is barely related to ALttP, so it's not a plot-hole. In OoT, the split pieces remain split for TP. Maybe after TP, the Gods rejoined the entire Triforce, since one of its bearers died.

Ganon could not simply just have the Triforce of Power and then suddenly gained the other two pieces of the Triforce. There must have been an event where Ganon got the other two pieces. While one could argue that FSA Ganon got the whole Triforce, he doesn't have a balanced heart and thus would repeat the events of the adult timeline that OoT Link prevented from happening.

Do you accept the Seal War as translated and analyzed here? Pretend the only games published are LoZ, AoL, and ALttP. Then OoT comes out. Nintendo obviously had to acknowledge that they were making up rules for the Triforce in OoT, that retroactively didn't work for ALttP. But they did it anyway. Plot-hole, yes. But it's always been a plot-hole. The Tri-split doesn't just magically fix what has always been a plot-hole.

 

[Shadao]

The Triforce's rules don't apply throughout the Seal War and ALttP. I can't do anything about it.

The Triforce's rules didn't exist as ALttp came out before OoT, which introduced those rules. When a new Zelda game comes out and contridicts the old game's backstory, the new Zelda game is consider to be the canon version. The fine example is the Sleeping Zelda story. Originally it was the explaination of why it's called the Legend of Zelda. The Sleeping Zelda was considered to be the very first Zelda and that all Zeldas are named after her.
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Sleeping_Zelda

But that story was retcon by Alttp and OoT. Alttp established that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm and Ganon had it till Link killed him and obtains the Triforce. Naturally, this explains how the Triforce ended up in the Royal Family and many would assume that the first Zelda would in the Alttp Zelda. But OoT arrives a prequel with the Triforce still the Sacred Realm and also features a Zelda. The Sleeping Zelda as the first Zelda retconned as the Triforce of Courage is not hidden by the King of Hyrule. And then Skyward Sword comes with their origin of Zelda.

What I'm suggesting is that one cannot just overlook a plothole. The Triforce's rules plothole has to be explained in some way. It cannot be overlooked. So how Ganon managed to obtain the Triforce without loosing it?

 

[Locke]

Quick note, Link doesn't know Zelda in OoX, so it couldn't be a direct sequel to ALttP.

Link also apparently doesn't know Din during the linked ending, despite spending a whole game with her previously. Add to that the obvious reference to LA with the boat at the end and LA's intro describing faraway adventures, and Nintendo has a fairly good case for LttP/OoX/LA.

 

[ZestanorLink]

What I'm suggesting is that one cannot just overlook a plothole. The Triforce's rules plothole has to be explained in some way. It cannot be overlooked. So how Ganon managed to obtain the Triforce without loosing it? . . .

The Triforce's rules didn't exist as ALttp came out before OoT, which introduced those rules. When a new Zelda game comes out and contridicts the old game's backstory, the new Zelda game is consider to be the canon version.

If that's your philosophy... I guess your entitled to it, and I know I can't persuade you otherwise. The thing is, it's a plot-hole that's always been overlooked. Most theorists won't ignore the Seal War as a retcon. I'm sure if other's joined in, they'd back up the validity of the Seal War.

The fine example is the Sleeping Zelda story. Originally it was the explaination of why it's called the Legend of Zelda. The Sleeping Zelda was considered to be the very first Zelda and that all Zeldas are named after her. http://www.zeldawiki.org/Sleeping_Zelda But that story was retcon by Alttp and OoT. Alttp established that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm and Ganon had it till Link killed him and obtains the Triforce. Naturally, this explains how the Triforce ended up in the Royal Family and many would assume that the first Zelda would in the Alttp Zelda. But OoT arrives a prequel with the Triforce still the Sacred Realm and also features a Zelda. The Sleeping Zelda as the first Zelda retconned as the Triforce of Courage is not hidden by the King of Hyrule.

I actually explained my take on the Sleeping Zelda Legend within my first post. Imagine this is a genealogy of the female Hyrule royal line:

Not Zelda
NZ
NZ
Zelda (MC)
NZ
many more generations (not named Zelda)
NZ
NZ
(still not Zelda)
Zelda (OoT)
NZ
NZ
(Still not Zelda)
Zelda (TP)
NZ
NZ
(still not Zelda)
NZ
Zelda (FS/FSA)
NZ
NZ
Zelda (ALttP)
NZ
Zelda (AoL BS aka sleeping Zelda) Here is where the rule kicks in
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda (OoX)
Zelda
Zelda...

Link also apparently doesn't know Din during the linked ending, despite spending a whole game with her previously. Add to that the obvious reference to LA with the boat at the end and LA's intro describing faraway adventures, and Nintendo has a fairly good case for LttP/OoX/LA.

Wait what? Link didn't know Din in the linked ending? In the linked ending, the story shifts mainly to Ganon and Zelda, who had been mostly absent for unlinked stories. Then there are the credits over some non-scripted cutscenes. I think I would have noticed that before...
The boat thing, meh. I like OoX at the end because it exemplifies how Ganon still hasn't been revived after a previous attempt.

You decided to journey away from Hyrule on a quest for enlightenment, in search of wisdom that would make you better able to withstand the next threat to your homeland.

One day in Hyrule, a strange force drew Link deep within Hyrule castle, where he found the Triforce resting, glittering brilliantly as it awaited him. "Link... Link... Accept the quest of the Triforce!" Suddenly, Link was enveloped in a *shaft* of light, and the next moment, he vanished.

These are too different for me.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

I actually explained my take on the Sleeping Zelda Legend within my first post. Imagine this is a genealogy of the female Hyrule royal line:

Not Zelda
NZ
NZ
Zelda (MC)
NZ
many more generations (not named Zelda)
NZ
NZ
(still not Zelda)
Zelda (OoT)
NZ
NZ
(Still not Zelda)
Zelda (TP)
NZ
NZ
(still not Zelda)
NZ
Zelda (FS/FSA)
NZ
NZ
Zelda (ALttP)
NZ
Zelda (AoL BS aka sleeping Zelda) Here is where the rule kicks in
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda
Zelda (OoX)
Zelda
Zelda...

Yeah that's just how i thing about it. It's commo iin Hyrule to name people after their ancestors. Just think about Malon or Impa. The SZ doesn't have to take pace befor all the other games. It just has to take pace prior to the game that it effects.

But here is my problem. AoL isn't the only game to be affected by the SZ. Think about the scene in WW when Tetra finds out she's a decendant of king daphnes. he says to her "You are princess Zelda!" He doen't say "you are a princess of hyrule" or "you are part of the royla bloodline", he says "You are princess Zelda!" The only way to explain this is the SZ.

 

[ZestanorLink]

Imagine a world...

"You are Princess Winifred!"
"Wtf, this game is called the Legend of Zelda!"
"But your name is Winifred."
"No, it's actually Tetra."

Calling her Zelda doesn't have an In-Universe explanation. It's just that every time there is a Link, there is a Princess Zelda.
Some things don't have an In-Universe explanation, for example, why didn't the Triforce split when Ganondorf used it throughout the Seal War and ALttP?