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Midna and Zant's Relationship

PapilioTempesta

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Hyrule Historia: Their leader is granted particularly strong powers, and it’s possible for someone "outside" of the royal family to be recognized as a royal heir.

Maaah... I didn't see this bit in HH... Thanks, Justac00l, I'll look better next time.

all right, the siblings bit of my theory is out, but I still there is something between them (or at least from him towards her). Even if he's not royalty himself he had to be close to the royal family, either as a servant or counselor, or whatever -I don't thing the Twili had anything like a Parliment and an opposition party (can you imagine a LoZ with politics?). But again, i have nothing to prove any of this, I just imagine along until I find -or I'm told- some evidence that says otherwise.

Dragoncat, I like your childhood issue theory, but I believe that if Zant really thinks he ought to be the King is either because he has done something to earn it (and so he should be good at ruling, and certainly not a born loser) or because he things has the right to inherit the title (and being the son of a noble wouldn't suffice, he'd need to be royalty -which we have seen, he probably isn't).

On another matter i saw before, the change of the Twili into monsters is caused both by Ganondorf's presence in the Twilight Realm (I remember reading that in HH, I'd put the quote if I had the book here) and by Zant directly transforming them into his minions. The Sols capture/abduction isn't a cause of the change in the Twilis, but a consequence of Zant/Ganondorf's invasion: they knew it was an energy that could be a match for their magic, and so they sealed the Sols away.
 

Locke

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Maaah... I didn't see this bit in HH... Thanks, Justac00l, I'll look better next time.
Because it's not there. That is Snow's translation posted on Glitterberri before we got the official Dark Horse translation. The Dark Horse version was posted in the OP, and directly contradicts this fan-translation. I spent some time trying to dig into the original Japanese meaning but it was a bit beyond me. I gathered that the Royal Family has a power similar to that of the original interlopers, and it is this power which this sentence explains can be acquired, not necessarily leadership of the tribe as either of those translations state. I could be wrong though... these are professional translators and I have only one year of experience with the language. I was unable to determine if the one who can acquire the power must be within the royal family or merely recognized by the royal family.

Original Japanese said:
とくに強い力を持った王族の中でも、一族に認められた者が長としての力を手にすることができる。
Dark Horse's translation said:
Members of the powerful royal family choose one from among themselves to inherit the position of leader.
Snow's translation said:
Their leader is granted particularly strong powers, and it’s possible for someone "outside" of the royal family to be recognized as a royal heir.

I do think Dark Horse's is more accurate than Snow's. idk where Snow got "outside" from. JC, get yourself a copy of HH and stop confusing people with fan translations. =P
 

Justac00lguy

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Locke said:
Because it's not there. That is Snow's translation posted on Glitterberri before we got the official Dark Horse translation. The Dark Horse version was posted in the OP, and directly contradicts this fan-translation. I spent some time trying to dig into the original Japanese meaning but it was a bit beyond me. I gathered that the Royal Family has a power similar to that of the original interlopers, and it is this power which this sentence explains can be acquired, not necessarily leadership of the tribe as either of those translations state. I could be wrong though... these are professional translators and I have only one year of experience with the language. I was unable to determine if the one who can acquire the power must be within the royal family or merely recognized by the royal family.
In my opinion anyway, I feel the latter translation works, or in a way, fits better. Zant seems to outside of the Royal Family, the way he refers to them seems to be like he is someone external and looking in on events. He even quotes himself as a servant.

Now Zant may have been trying to gain entry from outside by devoting his time and life to serve the Royal Family, in a hope that he would one day gain that prestigious role. I find it odd that Zant would get get his hopes up but be denied, amongst most Royal Families, it's usually predetermined on who gets that role -- if Zant was a part of the Royal Family the surly it would be established that Midna would be getting the role, therefore his dissapointment wouldn't have been as drastic.

Now what intrigues me further is just what are the "Royal Family"? From what we gather, it seems the tribe is generally small, but we only visit a section of the Realm. There appears to be other rock formations(islands) off into the distance, so maybe there's more than meets the eye.
 

Dragoncat

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Dragoncat, I like your childhood issue theory, but I believe that if Zant really thinks he ought to be the King is either because he has done something to earn it (and so he should be good at ruling, and certainly not a born loser) or because he things has the right to inherit the title (and being the son of a noble wouldn't suffice, he'd need to be royalty -which we have seen, he probably isn't).
Idk about him thinking he should be king before. I think that's more of Ganondorf saying something like "I gave you magic power that's better than everyone else's, now you can easily take the throne for yourself and nobody can do a thing about it. Not royal? Who gives a rat's butt, you're better than them now."

So I think he only got that idea after he got his powers, but he wanted to rebel before. Not necessarily take the throne, but earn himself a higher rank.
 

Doc

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So I think he only got that idea after he got his powers, but he wanted to rebel before. Not necessarily take the throne, but earn himself a higher rank.

Like you just said, I don't think Zant was trying to be the leader at first. As we saw in a cutscene, he was humiliated and unrespected. I think his main intent was revenge, thus turning Midna into an imp, instead of killing her, and then making his later attempt to kill her extremely painful and torturous.
 

PapilioTempesta

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In the cutscene before fighting Zant, he says he had served the royal Family for long, feeling humiliated by that (by which I understand he sees this position denigrating, as a nobleman would do, instead of seeing it as an honour, as a commoner would do), and that he only endured it because he actually expected to be the next ruler.

So, if he really expected he could be king instead of Midna is probably because he had good chances to be heir -he was a member of the royal family, not the son of the King, but a relative, a part of the royal court that had spent his youth as a page, serving the previous king.

After defeating him, Midna says he wasn't chosen because everyone saw the greed of his eyes, not because he was socially unworthy of the throne.
 
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sorry to bring up a discussion again from 9 years ago, but one fact may clarify this, Zant dresses like, acts and represents the image of an Onmyoji, a type of priest/mage/counselor from ancient fudal Japan who held the role of a shaman , magician and chancellor or adviser to royalty, which made him very close to royalty to the point that if the shogun or in the case of china the emperor died without leaving male or worthy heirs, the kingdom's Onmyoji would assume the throne and be the new shogun or emperor in his place, they were frequent in ancient china and almost every emperor had his onmyoji outside the royal family, and associate zant's design with direct reference to how onmyoji dressed to midna's costume in his design of its royal form also makes reference to a Chinese noble, and this discussion is clear, zant was not of the royal family but it was his "onmyoji" who should receive the throne because the kingdom did not have a male heir, but midna was chosen by subplanting The tradition and so he thought he was entitled to the throne
 
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Zant is definitely not Midna's brother, and I don't think he's her first or second cousin either, otherwise that would've been a thing in the game that they talk about. She'd be like "brother, stop being bad" or like "cousin, stop being bad." Zant probably had a little crushy-crush on Midna and she rejected him and he's like "ur an imp now, but also i still like you" which is why he says he needs her.

Also maybe Zant snaps Ganondorf's neck at the end because he "killed" Midna, I've always liked that theory because it works whether they were related or whether he loved her: he's avenging her.
 
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Vanessa28

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I don't think Zant had a crush on Midna. Zant was rejected by the royals yes, but this rejection only fuelled his hatred he already had towards the royals. The hatred was already there. Remember when Midna said that it was the greed in his eyes, the same greed they lost their king to. So it was already there. Zant didn't need Midna for himself but her powers. Midna, as the true leader, was very powerful and with all the gathered pieces of the forbidden power she would be many times more powerful. Midna didn't care about anything but herself and her world for the first half of the game. Zant might have thought he could persuade her to serve big G or to share her powers with him. Possibly to overthrow big G when all was done. When she refused Zant he knew she was changing and wasn't any useful to him anymore.
And when he broke big G's neck it wasn't out of love for Midna but out of hate. He knew he was betrayed by big G.
 

Dio

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I have suspected for a long time that Zant and Midna were relatives from the fact that Zant believed he would be chosen to be king. It could have been like when you get people who think they are the reincarnation of Jesus and simply he was an insane man with no chance of being picked. However Midna tells him the reason he wasn't picked was the madness in his eyes which confirms he was definitely a legit candidate for the throne. As only royalty are usually selected for thrones both Zant and Midna must be members of the same royal family.

Their relationship if I were to speculate would be probably distant cousins. I do not suspect brother and sister, uncle and niece or even auntie and nephew as if they were close relatives this relationship would have been brought up.

I do not believe the pair were lovers nor that there was even a one sided love. Zant whispers 'I need you' in Midnas ear but his getting close like that appeared to simply be an intimidation technique in order to creep her out rather than affection.
 

Pokémaniac13

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Because it's not there. That is Snow's translation posted on Glitterberri before we got the official Dark Horse translation. The Dark Horse version was posted in the OP, and directly contradicts this fan-translation. I spent some time trying to dig into the original Japanese meaning but it was a bit beyond me. I gathered that the Royal Family has a power similar to that of the original interlopers, and it is this power which this sentence explains can be acquired, not necessarily leadership of the tribe as either of those translations state. I could be wrong though... these are professional translators and I have only one year of experience with the language. I was unable to determine if the one who can acquire the power must be within the royal family or merely recognized by the royal family.





I do think Dark Horse's is more accurate than Snow's. idk where Snow got "outside" from. JC, get yourself a copy of HH and stop confusing people with fan translations. =P
The google translation is:
Among the royal families with particularly strong power, those who are recognized by the family can have the power of the head.
”Those who are recognized by the family can have the power of the head,” in my mind, implies that the royal family grants their powers unto anyone they see fit.
 
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I don't think 'crush' is a really fitting word.

Zant is a thoroughly toxic personality, sociopathic at least, likely borderline personality disorder.
What is possibly likely is that he desired Midna, perhaps as little more than as a display of control, or as an idealised conquest, possibly as others have said as a legitimising aspect for a usurper. It's doubtful than anybody like Zant could actually love anyone beyond his idealised image of them.

I can't see the neck snap as being related to Midna. A personality like Zant would more likely be resentful of being abandoned by Ganondorf rather than anything he might have done to Midna.
 

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