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Masculinity Viewed as a Societal Issue

Discussion in 'Mature Discussion' started by A Link In Time, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. A Link In Time

    A Link In Time Break the Ice! ZD Champion

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    Something that's become prominent in recent years, especially with the Me Too Movement is more and more people saying that masculinity promotes bad behavior in men. The latest short film from Gilette has garnered some controversy on YouTube regarding this issue.


    I'm tired of people and ads like this stereotyping men as sex animals who only think with their penises and need to be reprimanded to get a hold of their senses. The vast majority of men only engage in sexual intercourse after receiving consent.

    The bigger issue here is the implication that there is something wrong with manhood as it stands. That's exactly the opposite of the truth. Men from single mother households are more likely to commit acts of violence.

    https://www.fatherhood.org/fatherhood-data-statistics

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2001/apr/05/crime.penal

    I want to see less talk about why masculinity is such a problem in our society and more talk about how to keep families together. That's the major issue at hand.

    What are your thoughts on all this?
     
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  2. Dizzi

    Dizzi magical internet cat.... ZD Champion

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    men be men women be women kids be kids everybody stop being stupid!!
     
  3. Spiritual Mask Salesman Online

    Spiritual Mask Salesman ~ Deus' Pug Smuggler ~ ZD Champion

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    When you see men in high positions doing bad things, that is a minority, they don't represent every man. Like you said, we aren't all sex crazed, we don't all force ourselves onto women.
     
  4. beste-spellen

    beste-spellen ZD Champion

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    Cannot agree more. Although the #metoo hype seems to be less than it was a couple of months ago, it escalated from addressing a valid issue to something being misused to draw attention and mock on almost anything masculine.
    Men and women are different and not everyone seems to want to acknowledge this. Men have the right to drink beer and watch sports, women have the right to do make-up and chitchat a lot with other women. In fact, everyone has the right to do anything* they want, even if it does not fit the stereotypes. But I really hate how people keep on saying that
    Because it is not.

    * Anything that is not illegal, prosecutable, violent, misuse, etc.
     
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  5. Castle

    Castle Ch!ld0fV!si0n

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    This nonsense came about as a result of the uninhibited rise of so-called "progressives" otherwise known as "social justice warriors" and the like who fancy themselves "liberal" and are anything but that.

    The simple thing is, these people are just another brand of punk who act all counter-culture and disruptive, disseminating new "ideas" that they try to make out as clever but are really just meant to tick people off and cause problems. Sure, if these twits had their way, they would have masculinity suppressed in society and completely dominate culture themselves...

    ...but getting their way is exactly what every other punk before them could have ended up doing as well, but nobody ever lets them. These punks never get their way because their way is stupid and the vast majority of humankind just has too much sense to go along with it.

    But that doesn't mean that these punks should be dismissed. There are real concentrated efforts to enforce rules and procedures in society to suppress masculinity. Just recently the American Psychiatric Association "officially" labeled "traditional" masculinity as "harmful."

    So think twice if your parents are sending you to a shrink or if you're a parent thinking about sending your kid to a shrink.

    Sadly, there are plenty of other examples.

    At the end of every day, there is always some punk trying to get one over on everyone just minding their own business. Whether you're a woman being told to shut up and get back in the kitchen, or a black being told you're not welcome, or whatever your particular case may be, you - whoever you are - are going to have to put up with this sort of thing from somebody.

    Guys are no exception.

    And we're getting this treatment that others have been subjected to for ages because we have ceded our cultural dominance over society. It was always going to come to pass that by granting others more share of society's influence and decision making, guys were going to end up rendering themselves vulnerable to the whims of disruptive punks. No one bossed us around when guys were the only ones running things (except other guys), but other people rightfully demanded their fair share of their society, and sharing the world means having to put up with bothersome pests.

    We all gotta deal, and this is just more to have to deal with. In the end, putting up with this sort of harassment and attempts to undermine only makes us stronger.

    I do fear, however, that if governments ever do decide to wage a serious social war on masculinity, western society will find itself reversing all the gains it has made in the last century as soon as enough guys have finally had it and decide it's time to take back control of society by force.

    We've already experienced the gentle pushback by way of the election of President Trump. And yeah, no matter how stricken you are by it, this is gentle compared to what could happen...

    Then women and everyone else can be reminded what real oppression is like. It would be a shame if it comes to that. It would be the fault of a few of society's rejects and everyone else who stood by and did nothing to stop them to set human progress back so far.
     
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  6. Lilith2

    Lilith2

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    This happened recently, what are you dears opinions on this supposedly "woke" video? It sure seems to be a sign of the times.
     
  7. Jimmu

    Jimmu Administrator Staff Member ZD Champion Administrator

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    I honestly can’t see the issue with this commercial. A friend posted on Facebook that “Gilette isn’t great for people with sensitive skin after all” and I’d have to agree.

    I think the issue isn’t masculinity itself, it’s some negative/toxic behaviors that many people consider to be part of masculinity. I think the message is that men can still be masculine while rejecting those behaviors.

    Obviously things such as expectations of men to not show their emotions, and attitudes of some men that believe it’s appropriate to do things like cat call random women plus normalize harassment and assault are harmful and I doubt any reasonable person would argue against that. These kinds of things are the actions that society should be disassociating from masculinity, and I think that’s the main message. Not that masculinity as a whole is a bad thing. People should be able to express themselves as they like so long as they’re not harming others.
     
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  8. Castle

    Castle Ch!ld0fV!si0n

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    I think Gillette is desperate for attention, hence the gross virtue signaling.

    Nobody is going to shame a real man into behaving a certain way.

    The exception I take to it is to the "you're bad and you should feel bad" approach that these punks I mentioned previously routinely employ. Guilt tripping is grossly manipulative, and only chumps fall for it.

    There is nothing wrong with urging others to be respectful. A real man is respectful. A decent person is respectful, period.

    But portraying an entire gender as cartoonishly misogynistic dunderheads and mindlessly robotic nitwits parroting a cliche phrase nobody ever used unironically isn't something that anyone with any shred of self respect is going to receive well.

    It's the same as a certain failed two-time presidential candidate's use of the term "deplorables" to refer to her arch rival's constituents. "... a basket of deplorables." She says, with the implication being, "You don't want to be a deplorable, do you?" That separates everyone in to one of two camps. Deplorable. Or With HER.

    Intriguing how those same constituents refer to themselves affectionately as "deplorables" now.

    Of course, let us go ahead and take a look at the hypocrisy inherent to this issue now. Close your eyes with me and imagine if the commercial was made for another gender.

    *ahem*

    [Commercial shows women being weak. Clueless. Ineffectual. Cue footage of women struggling to open jars, burning the pot roast, unable to figure out which cable plug goes where, lost and confused in the middle of a hardware store isle until being condescendingly rescued assisted by the strong attractive salesman, and having an emotional cry while sitting on the toilet...]

    [Then the commercial goes on to imply that women don't have to be like that, by showing a woman taking charge in an office meeting by condescendingly telling her male coworkers "I'm strong!" and strolling confidently down the hardware isle and effortlessly picking out the exact tool she needs while proceeding to then use that tool to single handedly fix a toilet.]

    The message, of course, being the same, but instead of it saying "You don't want to be one of those dumb jerkass misogynistic pricks do you? Here, let us show you how to be a 'real' man," it's "You don't want to be one of those stupid, weak, helpless women do you? Here, let us show you how to be a 'real' woman."

    Does that sound sexist to anyone else?
     
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  9. Spirit

    Spirit ZD Legend

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    Honestly... that whole ad could be a work of genius.

    Exec 1: Hey everyone, we need to get people talking about the brand again, we need an ad to push us into focus. Ideas?

    Exec 2: Well, that woke stuff is pretty popular at the moment... why don't we ride that wave?

    Exec 1: Brilliant!

    That's how this whole thing feels to me. It feels like clever marketing and the current social climate is working EXACTLY how they wanted through social media etc.

    I can honestly see the side of clever marketing more than Gillette getting 'woke'.

    It also kind of reminds me of an ad I saw a year or so ago reminding people that it isn't okay to rape people.

    What a fantastic time to be alive...
     
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  10. beste-spellen

    beste-spellen ZD Champion

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    Except when it backfires. Gillette is a brand aimed at men, men buy Gillette because of it being a manly brand and accept the surplus on the selling price of those razors. if they disagree with the contents of this message - which is quite likely - they may not buy those razors anymore.

    [women-unfriendly]However, most women may do grocery shopping for their men, maybe women agree with the message from the ad and buy more Gillette razors instead[/women-unfriendly]

    ^Me uses a shaver instead of razors.
     
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  11. Deus Online

    Deus ~ ZD's Pug Dealer ~ ZD Champion

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    There is a train advert which plays at the station in Japan of a guy in John Lennon glasses in the carriage trying to grope some women and they all gang up on him and beat him up. Also I saw a club there with a 'No Molester' sign. Also had to sign a form saying I wouldn't molest the animals at the petting Zoo too.


    Anyway. I think this advert is designed to annoy people and get them talking about the brand. A similar tactic was used with Nike when they hired that afro haired athlete who's name I can't remember. It was the man who knelt during the National Anthem. They used him as the face for a campaign. It was a smart move and it also spawned a ton of memes and worked to increase Nike sales. I am sure even without the memes raising extra awareness that many respect the athlete for doing what he did regardless and would have chosen to support Nike because of it. People are not all patriotic afteral and many consider America to be going down the ****ter right now, not a place to be proud of especially with the mainstream media and their negative spin on anything relating to the President.

    With Gillette on the other hand I think they are directly insulting and being patronising towards a lot of their only market (men) and I doubt this tactic will work in the same way that Nike's did.

    I'm not going to go and buy Gillette because of it nor will I refuse to buy their products because I don't use them anyway. I'll stick with a straight razor or safety razor because it gives a closer shave. For my shaving cream I will continue to use Bulldog which is a cruelty free brand with natural ingredients.

    I do think they should maybe stop with banging on about toxic masculinity and come up with a better name for the associated problems which point less to a particular group. Seriously most people don't actually know what is meant by the term toxic masculinity, and see it as just an attack on men in general rather than just particular traits associated with masculinity. Which considering the current climate is not tactful or very helpful.

    The thing is those harmful behaviours which are more common in men than women such as bottling up emotions and not seeking help for their mental health are still not exclusive to men and everyone could benefit from being reassured it is ok to seek help for mental health.

    Just like committing crimes is more commonly done by black people doesn't mean that it is a problem exclusively for blacks. Do they do an advert saying about toxic blackness? No. And why not? Because that would be considered racist. Men though seem to be fair game at the moment.

    Also in regards to the 'boys will be boys' thing in that advert. Children, not just boys, need to engage in rough and tumble play as it lets them learn the limits of their own bodies. They should not be coddled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  12. M107

    M107

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    The quote from Terry Crews is telling in that ad, and was literally the main point of the message. "Men need to hold other men accountable."

    Gillette basically came to the conclusion to disassociate men who exhibit or defend (i.e. not hold accountable) toxic masculine behaviors. That is, they'd rather keep the market of men who'd break up a fight (as well as those who understand that this is healthy behavior) rather than the market of men who turn a blind eye and says "boys will be boys" that perpetuate toxic behavior.
     
  13. Deus Online

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    This video popped up for me so I gave it a watch. It proves that Gillette actually sneakily altered their original video whilst being able to keep all their views.

    The original actually contained another short scene of a man dancing with two ladies and giving their butts a squeeze.

    I think it's clear why they decided to do that sneaky edit. It's because the guy in the deleted scene was black and they couldn't possibly paint a black man as the bad guy.

    It ruins their narrative of the black men being cock blocking saviours of women, saving them from the horrors of even being approached by a white man. Because God forbid if a white man was actually allowed to approach a woman he was attracted to in order to introduce himself. Unless Gillette would have us believe he was going to rape her there in the street.
     
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  14. A Link In Time

    A Link In Time Break the Ice! ZD Champion

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    This is a very good response video to the original Gilette ad:

     
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