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Link Raised Volvagia.

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
*Skims*

*Holds up hands*

All you folks arguing now, don't you understand the concept of divergent canons?

It happens *all the time* with anime and manga... this is something I've learned as a fan of those two media. Very, very often, someone will create and publish a manga which will be made into an anime. The anime often has to do things a little bit differently from the manga - sometimes with or without the manga creator's permission, and sometimes, an ongoing manga series will get a short anime series. In the end, though the two things will diverge story-wise, fans must come to the conclusion that "both are the canon, but are alternate universe of each other/two different takes on the story."

This happened bigtime with my favorite: Trigun. The creator of Trigun published up to a certain point in the manga before his manga publisher went belly-up. Someone at Studio Madhouse liked his story and said "Hey, let's create an anime." The mangaka was invited to be involved in the process and to approve everything - and he said "The anime is the anime, you folks do what you want with it." As the anime team created the anime and worked out thier own ideas to end the series, a new publisher picked the mangaka up and he decided to do more with the manga story - he did a lot of expansion, lots of things the anime did not do, including a little bit of ret-con and the introduction of characters that did not exist in the anime. (Yet, you can tell that the mangka enjoyed the anime because latter chapters of the manga involved characters and things that had, up until that point, only been in the anime with no way to fit them into the manga). Now, among Trigun's fans, you had people who only considered the manga the "true canon" because it's what the creator directly worked on, while ignoring the fact that, yes, the creator did, indeed, work with the anime team and approved of what went on there. In short, they are both canon, just divergent canons on *roughly* the same story.

And that is often how things are between adaptations. One "canon" really only becomes non-canon if you get a situation like what happened with Hellsing. There was a manga, then an anime. The manga was ongoing, the anime team for that did weird things that the creator apparently did not like. The anime has been since ret-conned by another anime that follows more closely to the manga (I have yet to see it, myself as I'm never really got deep into Hellsing and don't really care, I just had some Hellsing-loving friends for a while and am aware of this stuff). It's like, the manga creator for Hellsing said "Dude, the anime sucks. MAKE IT AGAIN."

Personally, with Ocarina of Time game and manga canons - I view it in the same way I view Trigun: Divergent canons *both* approved by the creators. One story works better for gameplay, the other works better for reading. They are both equally valid, but differring.
Therefore, I don't see the reason for fighting between fans of the two.

I'm also rather twitterpated that dear Link's personality in the OoT manga is considered canonical - because I like it. It's like, when I'm writing OoT fic and I'm basing my ideas on his general personality on what I've read in the manga, I'm "getting it right" (for a character who, in the game, isn't show with much of a personality). It's like "It's okay for me to base my ideas on his personality on this manga that I liked."


................

Looks above:

Oh, do you know how freakin' jazzed I'd be if Nintendo folks read my fan fiction and came to me and said "Zelda Western. Awesome." (and gave me and my co-writer some credit and royatlies?) I'd probably drop dead from pure happiness to see such a game...
 

ChargewithSword

Zelda Dungeon's Critic
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Oh, do you know how freakin' jazzed I'd be if Nintendo folks read my fan fiction and came to me and said "Zelda Western. Awesome." (and gave me and my co-writer some credit and royatlies?) I'd probably drop dead from pure happiness to see such a game...

If Miyamoto liked the Mario movie then there is a chance he'd like your Zelda fic.
 

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
But my fic is... writing... and in English... and I don't know of anyone who'd want to translate it to Japanese.

Though I did get a request recently from a fellow Zelda fan to translate one of my other, more close-to-universe stories into Spanish. I said "Cool, go ahead, just give me credit and make sure you disclaimer it so people don't wrongly accuse you of plagerism."

I'm not sure "The Great Desert" would be a good candidate to be made directly into a Zelda game unless it was a non-canon fangame because... frankly, Lilith and I screwed with Hyrule's mythology a lot. As in, stuff that if put forth by Nintendo would drastically change the series/make it into something very different than what it has been so far and generate a lot of protests. If the most unlikely thing in the world were to happen and it were to become a "real" game, I'd request that a lot of the TGD "fic canon" be left by the wayside in order to fit more into the canon Zelda universe...

General themes of a spreading desert, the Triforce of Power going out of whack, Wisdom and Courage fading, widespread skepticism among the populace (a world where people dont' believe in faires and practical magic anymore and Link has to discover these things), gunslinging... I can see that all done. However, I don't think Nintendo wants to ret-con the Three Goddesses into once-human lost spacefarers who created Hyrule in terraforming project.


Wow, off-topic getting, yes.
 
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I'm confused. I thought the manga was it's own canon, and not canon with the games. If the manga is part of the same canon as the games, then we have a lot of storyline problems.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the manga's, but I think they should be separate from the games.
I hope they don't decide to say that the Minish Cap manga is canon with the games, because then there will be even more timeline problems.
 

Retro Ganon

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Based on what some people are saying, I think for fan's sanity's sake if we are to speculate storyline correlations, keep the magna world separate from the in-game script world. Otherwise interrelating the two for certain elements, and not others, really isn't sound theorizing or ethical in my opinion.

But maybe that's me. I know I won't mix in-game canon with magna to make theories unless my homework leads me to do otherwise (which I doubt for now).
 

Zeruda

Mother Hyrule
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on a crumbling throne
I'm confused. I thought the manga was it's own canon, and not canon with the games. If the manga is part of the same canon as the games, then we have a lot of storyline problems.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the manga's, but I think they should be separate from the games.
I hope they don't decide to say that the Minish Cap manga is canon with the games, because then there will be even more timeline problems.
Well, according to Aonuma himself, the manga fills in gaps precisely. Just because it's a different form of story-telling, it doesn't mean that it has to be separate from the in-game story. I mean, "precisely" is a pretty strong word. I may not like much of what's been changed, but this fan isn't going to argue with the word of the Aonuma and the rest of the Zelda team, despite the holes and changes and yadda yadda yadda, y'know?

I don't know what they'll say about TMC manga or any other.... I don't know if Aonuma gave Himekawa any direction with those, so it's hard to say for now.

If you reread what I posted, it says that Himekawa actually wanted to make the manga EXACTLY the way the game played out. Aonuma said NO to that, because there were changes that needed to be made to the story. Gaps filled in, personalities developed. If he and the rest of the Zelda team wanted the in-game story to be the final canon, they wouldn't have changed it. Remember, "precisely".


I mean, I don't necessarily LIKE the changes, but maybe the way fans refuse to accept change is a large part of why the team doesn't bother giving us answers to all the questions we have.
 

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
Uh...

I'm sorry, but I can't see any way around this, personally, but to see them as *divergent canons* - I think if the game were to be ret-conned, the Nintendo team would have been clearer about and would have done so with say... Master Quest or something. The manga fills in the gaps as far as little things like character personalities, but otherwise, there is a lot of difference! Say, Link fighting Dark Link in Kakariko rather than in the Water Temple. You may read the manga and see that, but if you turn on the game and play the game, your experience is going to be different. Perhaps they are technical differences, but they are still differences.

I have yet to see Nintendo outright say "The game events are not canon anymore." The manga is a neat suppliment, and a neat fill-in, but it doesn't change the fact that the game exists in its own right. The only way I can see this resolved is the "seperate" "slight alternate universe" or "divergent" canons - at least until a new OoT retconned game is made, I guess.

Then again, there are folks in my other fandom fandom that I mentioned (Trigun) who consider the Trigun Maximum manga "more canon" than the anime - for me, it still didn't negate the fact that the anime story existed.

For me, the OoT game and Manga are divergent canons. I'm not about to call one less canon or less valid than the other unless the folks at Nintendo tell me that I'm supposed to, *and maybe not even then.*

Heh. After all, there are times I've based a few of fan works on *clearly* non-canon elements of the Zelda universe (such as the 1990s Valiant comcs series for LoZ and AoL) and I'll make a note saying "based upon the canon of a non-canonical source" ... in other words "I don't care that this is non-canon by Nintendo, but I enjoy it, so nya!"
 
L

Linkmsg92

Guest
zeldas-universe.piczo.com/?g=45592675 . This might be the right one.

This is in no way related to the game stroy itself but it was in one of the comics.

It is said that Link raised Volvagia as a baby in the begining of his journey. He agve Link company and Link loved him. He eventually got old enough to go on his own way so Link let him go. he was then found by gannondorf who changed him into an evil monster, and distorted his thoughts.

This is not part of the game but I wanted to see what you thought about it. The comics were written by the writter of the game and comics so it should be accurate. This could be why Link seemed upset when Volvagia's skull landed in front of him. It is also the only boss who left something behind. that is an assumption I don't knowbut thoughts?


I'd also like to point out that King Dodongo left his entire body. So it's not the ONLY one that left something behind.
 

Retro Ganon

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Well, according to Aonuma himself, the manga fills in gaps precisely. Just because it's a different form of story-telling, it doesn't mean that it has to be separate from the in-game story. I mean, "precisely" is a pretty strong word. I may not like much of what's been changed, but this fan isn't going to argue with the word of the Aonuma and the rest of the Zelda team, despite the holes and changes and yadda yadda yadda, y'know?

I don't mean to be rude... but... are you serious?

I don't think Miyamoto and the Zelda Team would expect the gaming crowd to purchase the magna just to get a better understanding of the games plots. Miyamoto has always stood by that storyline is meant to ease the player through the game play process, and that it should not confuse fans (storyline should not be complicated - essentially flexible, etc). Now, The magna on the other hand is an authors personal account for what he or she thinks happens in-between the 'gaps' of the core storyline progression of the games. I find it contradictory to Miyamoto's and Aonuma's beliefs, that anyone in their right mind would look at the magna as the final absolute 'gap' filler for what all the in-game content could not show the fans.

It's not a fair statement to imply/say that the magna interpretation should restrict the players interpretation beyond what the in-game scripts have to offer alone - ESPECIALLY when their will be obvious contradictions like we have seen in this thread.

Some people are blowing the magna way out of proportion just to sound like they've broken canon as theorists have known it for years. Now thinking about it, I wish I hadn't made that wry remark about everyone's theories being disproven a page back in this thread... but now I know.

Edit

So I guess I essentially support Shadsie.
 
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Pinecove

Last Chance
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Toronto Ontario
I'm going to agree with Shadsle here.

"Fill in the gaps" could have multiple meanings in Japanese. It could mean that they WANTED to develop the game the way of the manga, but due to...well...obvious reasons, it wasn't developed like that. And the manga just expresses those ideas.
 

Shadsie

Sage of Tales
Hold on, hold on.

I don't want to draw up battle-lines here. I'm just giving my take on things partly based upon experiences with another fandom. I don't even care of one considers one form of the story to be "more valid" than the other.

As said before, sometimes I even like clearly non-canonical sources and will say "They exist. I like them. I have the right to enjoy them" without even caring whether or not they are the "real" story according to the originators.

I dealt with this kind of junk extensively in my last fandom... it got to the point where fans of one medium (the manga, mostly) would actually look down on fans of the other medium (the anime) as less intelligent, less sophisticated, overly soft-hearted, blah, blah, blah... And in the end, what did it come down to for me? Same thing it will here between Game canon fans and Manga canon fans --- "I enjoy both and if you need me, I'll be in my cave."
 
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Retro Ganon

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I dealt with this kind of junk extensively in my last fandom... it got to the point where fans of one medium (the manga, mostly) would actually look down on fans of the other medium (the anime) as less intelligent, less sophisticated, overly soft-hearted, blah, blah, blah... And in the end, what did it come down to for me? Same thing it will here between Game canon fans and Manga canon fans --- "I enjoy both and if you need me, I'll be in my cave."

Its going to happen in any fandom. I've had similar experiences in the past also.

People are always looking for the easy way out towards things that confuse them. If one side provides more answers to that person's intellect, naturally these fans will be self satisfied and content with the truth being laid before them. Does this make those who support magna canon over in-game canon lazy and less intelligent? No. But perhaps less intellectual from the perspective of theorists that like to dissect game plot and come up with their own interpretations.

With that all said, its pretty obvious where I stand. I say if people want to use the magna canon as absolute, they shouldn't bother theorizing against those that support in-game canon. Magna canon supporters are accepting the plot hole/gap fillers for what they are. This in itself leaves less room to think about the things games left ambiguous.

I think deep down inside we all want things at face value and clear as day. How we reach completeness in knowing the absolute truth we seek is a matter of what length a person will go to obtain it for his or her self. As stated before, this varies between different intellects, and there is nothing wrong with that. However interrelating the two canonical viewpoints is always going to create controversy as you said. That's why I suggested earlier, the best thing to do is theorize and speculate within the universe of that canon (magna or game). Neither can override the other unless the developer says explicitly for all elements of a particular canon universe over another.

Edit

And for those that still want to create theories with canon from both the magna and game universes, you're really creating your own hell for later. It doesn't matter what the developer's interview says, because in the end, you'll only make it out to what you want to hear. I've seen this happen before. To frantically pull certain elements from one universe to support a claim in the other, and ignoring other existing contradictions between how the two universes fundamentally play out plot-wise, you're basically using straw man to make your claims look stronger than what they really are... when in reality it has logical flaws beyond comprehension. BEYOND comprehension of what the developer(s) didn't even sweat about.
 
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Shadsie

Sage of Tales
Over in Trigun fandom... my fiance' wrote, partly as a creative outlet and partly as a *gift to me* a rather lengthy fan fiction. I enjoyed it very much at the time. It was based upon the anime-universe only as he had not read any of the manga (and he'd started the story before the manga had been translated for the American market and only the "elite" fans knew it, anyway). So, after the manga became known while he was writing the novel-length fanfic, he purposefully kept the story in the "based on the anime" vein.

A online friend of mine in the fandom-turned-enemy (partly over shipping arguments, but mostly because she was a manipulative person in general whom I recognized as becoming inceasingly ruinious to my sanity and wound up, unwisely, telling her so) decided that, since she wasn't in a position to attack me, that she'd attack my fiance over his fanfic. I remember, clearly, one of the reasons why she lambasted it on public boards (and in private emails, believe it or not) was because "Tesla isn't in your fic!" Tesla is a character that appears breifly in the Trigun Maximum manga ONLY. She's fairly important to the manga story, but is of no importance to the anime story because the circumstances were completely different.

Maybe this ex-acquaintence is completely different, now... this was 4-5 years ago, but I wouldn't know. After people scream all over the place about your beloved being a bad, bad writer and a horrible person (she accused him of being racist for some reason), you tend not to want to touch them at all. My point, however is, is that one of this person's arguments for my guy being supposedly a horrible fanfic writer was that he didn't use a *manga only* character in an *anime only* based fic!

And some of this jazz over in Trigun fandom (the fandom I was in right before I was hit full-on with my current Zelda obession) is probably why I'm sort of "broken" on the whole serious theorizing stuff, or even *caring* about one thing being "more canon" than the other. Trigun broke me in ship wars (I do have pet ships in Zelda, but I'm fairly free-and-easy about them and don't argue with other shippers), I don't like to delve too deeply into arguing character psychology (hey, I think Link is a nice guy, but if you want to characterize him as a sociopath, knock yourself out!), and whenever I do any theorizing, I kinda of step back and say "but other people's ideas are okay, too."

Zelda has different issues than my last fandom, but it remains that... I just can't get up the "oomph" to feel too strongly over my own ideas for it, at least not strongly enough not to hold up my hand in a peace sign and say "to each their own."

I stay out of the Timeline forum for a reason.

Sometimes, fandom can be like arguing religion or politics (something else I don't do anymore here. I went to the admins and had them put me on a ban because I found the Mature Disscussion forum overwhelmingly tempting and, when I argued there, I stopped having fun. Decided I'd rather be at this board to have fun...) - except that fandom isn't exactly about real life issues, so it comes across as sillier to me, in the end.

All I can say about this particuular issue is that the manga being "total, definitive ret-con" doesn't personally make sense to me. The only way I can wrap my head around both its existance and the game's existance is the divergent canons thing - or "one canon compliments the other but neither negates the other."

Apologies for being long-winded. (And for bringing up old scars that nobody cares about).
 
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