• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Link As The Hero Shade

C

Chicksdigmee

Guest
In TP the hidden move teacher Shade looks similar to Link at the end of MM. I'm talking gear wise like what hes wearing not like flesh and bone look. He has the mirror shield which is what you get at the end of MM and he has the Guilded Sword which is the sword at the end of MM. He looks similar to a Stalfo and it's said that any Hylian that enters the Lost Woods and dies there will become one of these monsters. His last words to Link are go and do not falter my child.... He could be refering to Link as his son. That could be true because one of the only girls Link meets in OoT it Malon who is a rancher. And it ends up being in TP Link is a rancher.

I'm not saying this is all real, but it seems likely. This also has to do with the split timeline theory so I'm just putting all this stuff out there.... Please don't try to flame me to hard if you disagree with what I'm saying.

Thanks:)

normal_stalfos.jpg



http://www.zeldainformer.com/images/articles/Spirit1.jpg
 
Z

Zora X

Guest
Nintendo has no official timelime for the series. But that is a common belief among people who make their own timelines. I'd say you have a good argument and I don't really bother with timelines but what ever floats your boat!
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
I'm not sure where you got the notion that his gear at all resembles that of MM Link.
sheildcomparison.png
MM_Mirror_Shield.png

swordcomparison.png
Gildedsword.png


I do agree with your conclusion, but there's better evidence out there. I've posted much of my theories regarding the hero's shade here.

Nintendo has no official timelime for the series. But that is a common belief among people who make their own timelines. I'd say you have a good argument and I don't really bother with timelines but what ever floats your boat!
Dunno how that is relevant, but just take one look at the developer quotes page and you'll find several statements proclaiming the existence of a master timeline document and claims that attempts are being/have been made to connect all the games.
 

bbevington90

The Mask Salesman
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Location
Happy Mask Shop
I don't know how much evidence there really is to support the Hero's Shade being a specific Link, but I think it's decently fair to assume that it is a Link. I don't know who else from the past would be seeking out TP Link in that way to help him learn moves. Locke is right though, the weapons used by the Hero's Shade have no resemblance to any weapon we have seen Link use, and the link he gave saying that it's possible the Hero of Time came back to Hyrule and did something else that was heroic seems very plausible.
I also don't understand the notion that the Hero's Shade has to be a stalfos from being in the Lost Woods. He could be, but he could also very well just be an armored skeleton, just to show that the figure's body is dead.
 
A

An Hero of Time

Guest
Personally, I firmly don't believe that it's the Hero of Time in particular, though he's definitely a "Link;" most likely SS Link or some unknown hero that we haven't seen yet who lived between MM and TP's era. First of all, the Hero of Time's title is never directly mentioned in TP. Instead, the NPCs only recognize this elusive Link as "the Hero," "The Ancient Hero," or "The Messenger of The Heavens." If they wanted to reference the Hero of Time and his deeds, then they would've already done so, which is exactly what they did in WW, (The Hero of Time is obviously mentioned many times throughout the game.)

Secondly, TP takes place in the child timeline - the side of the split in which Link was sent back to his childhood; before he defeated Ganondorf and saved Hyrule from his tyrannical reign. So in a sense, his deeds and title as the Hero of Time were "erased" by Zelda on this end of the timeline, but everyone in this thread is already aware of this.

Also, it's very likely that Link did not return to Hyrule after MM. If so, then he most definitely did not do anything exceedingly heroic in order for him to re-earn his title for a second time. There is a possibility that he might've told Zelda about Ganondorf's evil plans in-secret before departing Hyrule in his search for Navi, but even then, the dialogue and character interaction for some cutscenes in TP suggests that this is also very unlikely. The sages in TP clearly state that Ganondorf did eventually invade Hyrule in hopes of establishing dominion over the sacred realm, further proving that Link and Zelda's plan did NOT work in the long run or that Ganondorf caught note of this and disappeared for a very, very long period of time before attempting to invade Hyrule once again. Then there's Ganondorf's reaction when confronting Link for the first time in TP, which is extremely unusual. You would think that the guy would at least make some remark or statement towards Link, his clothes or his blade, if he had fought such a hero in his past (he certainly did in WW - he mentions the Hero of Time on several occasions,) but in TP, the exact same Ganondorf says nothing... Heavily suggesting that he was not totally defeated or sealed by a Hero in this timeline; much less the Hero of Time himself.

As for the Shade's armor and weaponry - true - they do not resemble anything that The Hero of Time wore or carried. However, symbol on his shield and helmet is a prominent clue - these are the same symbols that can be found throughout the City of the Sky, The Temple of Time and on Oocca technology, such as the Dominion rod and Dominion statues. In addition, although TP doesn't mention the Hero of Time in particular, it does mention a Messenger of the Heavens, whom, as Impaz says - acted as the "ambassador" between Hyrule and the Oocca as they exchanged technology and magic with each other between MM-TP's era. Then there are the Hidden Skills - which is something that OoT/MM never learned throughout his adventures. However, watch a demo for SS, and you'll notice that SS Link shares many of the same moves so far. Oh, and his outfit bares an uncanny resemblance to TP Link's.... unlike OoT Link's, which is radically different.

Now, I'm not suggesting that SS Link appeared between MM and TP; that would be impossible, as Miyamoto and Aonuma have already stated that the game takes place well before OoT. It is likely that the the Hylians had forgotten about SS Link's heroic title and accomplishments for a period of time until the Oocca reappeared to them between MM and TP, reminding them of the "Ancient Hero" that helped establish and form Hyrule many centuries ago. Or perhaps Link can time-travel to different time periods in SS and managed to appear between MM-TP - though this is a little too ridiculous to believe, but who knows?

Really, the only evidence that supports this theory are they Howling Stone songs - most of which are from OoT/MM... But even then, we hear The Wind Waker theme, as well as two other songs whose themes are completely new and original.

Well, that's all I'm posting tonight; I'm too tired to continue. I'll try posting more of my assumptions later...
 

Ronin

There you are! You monsters!
Forum Volunteer
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Location
Alrest
I find this to be utterly possible. I consider myself an expert of both TP and MM, so I can find no contradictions to sever this bridge.
 

DuckNoises

Gone (Wind) Fishin'
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
Montreal, QC, Canada
There are already numerous threads like this one; please try and use the search function before posting a topic to see if there is already a pre-existing thread.
 
D

derkcloud

Guest
You guys are forgetting that even though the Hero of Time exists in the AT, that Link himself went back to the CT at the end of Oot. Even though this timeline didn't know him as The Hero of Time, he was still The Hero of Time in the flesh. So its plausible that he could be the Hero's Shade. As for his sword and shield, I think any resemblances or non resemblances are simply artistic license.
 

squirrelguys

Hero of Slimes
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Location
Louisville KY
It would be hard to say yes or no to this one. As for the fact that Link never talks we have no clue how he would talk or how his personality is. All we know is that he is courageous. He could have the same personality as the Heroes Shade making it extremely possible. OR he could act nothing like him when he was alive making in impossible.
 

DuckNoises

Gone (Wind) Fishin'
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
Montreal, QC, Canada
Personally, I firmly don't believe that it's the Hero of Time in particular, though he's definitely a "Link;" most likely SS Link or some unknown hero that we haven't seen yet who lived between MM and TP's era. First of all, the Hero of Time's title is never directly mentioned in TP. Instead, the NPCs only recognize this elusive Link as "the Hero," "The Ancient Hero," or "The Messenger of The Heavens." If they wanted to reference the Hero of Time and his deeds, then they would've already done so, which is exactly what they did in WW, (The Hero of Time is obviously mentioned many times throughout the game.)

Secondly, TP takes place in the child timeline - the side of the split in which Link was sent back to his childhood; before he defeated Ganondorf and saved Hyrule from his tyrannical reign. So in a sense, his deeds and title as the Hero of Time were "erased" by Zelda on this end of the timeline, but everyone in this thread is already aware of this.

Also, it's very likely that Link did not return to Hyrule after MM. If so, then he most definitely did not do anything exceedingly heroic in order for him to re-earn his title for a second time. There is a possibility that he might've told Zelda about Ganondorf's evil plans in-secret before departing Hyrule in his search for Navi, but even then, the dialogue and character interaction for some cutscenes in TP suggests that this is also very unlikely. The sages in TP clearly state that Ganondorf did eventually invade Hyrule in hopes of establishing dominion over the sacred realm, further proving that Link and Zelda's plan did NOT work in the long run or that Ganondorf caught note of this and disappeared for a very, very long period of time before attempting to invade Hyrule once again. Then there's Ganondorf's reaction when confronting Link for the first time in TP, which is extremely unusual. You would think that the guy would at least make some remark or statement towards Link, his clothes or his blade, if he had fought such a hero in his past (he certainly did in WW - he mentions the Hero of Time on several occasions,) but in TP, the exact same Ganondorf says nothing... Heavily suggesting that he was not totally defeated or sealed by a Hero in this timeline; much less the Hero of Time himself.

As for the Shade's armor and weaponry - true - they do not resemble anything that The Hero of Time wore or carried. However, symbol on his shield and helmet is a prominent clue - these are the same symbols that can be found throughout the City of the Sky, The Temple of Time and on Oocca technology, such as the Dominion rod and Dominion statues. In addition, although TP doesn't mention the Hero of Time in particular, it does mention a Messenger of the Heavens, whom, as Impaz says - acted as the "ambassador" between Hyrule and the Oocca as they exchanged technology and magic with each other between MM-TP's era. Then there are the Hidden Skills - which is something that OoT/MM never learned throughout his adventures. However, watch a demo for SS, and you'll notice that SS Link shares many of the same moves so far. Oh, and his outfit bares an uncanny resemblance to TP Link's.... unlike OoT Link's, which is radically different.

Now, I'm not suggesting that SS Link appeared between MM and TP; that would be impossible, as Miyamoto and Aonuma have already stated that the game takes place well before OoT. It is likely that the the Hylians had forgotten about SS Link's heroic title and accomplishments for a period of time until the Oocca reappeared to them between MM and TP, reminding them of the "Ancient Hero" that helped establish and form Hyrule many centuries ago. Or perhaps Link can time-travel to different time periods in SS and managed to appear between MM-TP - though this is a little too ridiculous to believe, but who knows?

Really, the only evidence that supports this theory are they Howling Stone songs - most of which are from OoT/MM... But even then, we hear The Wind Waker theme, as well as two other songs whose themes are completely new and original.

Well, that's all I'm posting tonight; I'm too tired to continue. I'll try posting more of my assumptions later...

Also, it's very likely that Link did not return to Hyrule after MM.
What is your justification for this?

There is a possibility that he might've told Zelda about Ganondorf's evil plans in-secret before departing Hyrule in his search for Navi, but even then, the dialogue and character interaction for some cutscenes in TP suggests that this is also very unlikely.
I don't see this being unlikely at all. The fact that OoT ends with the Hero of Time in the courtyard scene right where Link meets Zelda cannot be a coincidence; this is the moment where Zelda is spying on Ganondorf, who is proposing a peace treaty to lull Hyrule into a sense of complacency so they won't suspect attack. Why wouldn't Link tell Zelda? That seems very conflicting with his character. Zelda is already suspicious of Ganondorf, as she has clairvoyant dreams (as did Link, in OoT's opening cinematic). This is why Ganondorf is being tried by the Sages on top of Arbiter's Grounds in the flashback in TP, because Castle Town knew that his attack was coming, hence the trial and attempted execution. The cutscene shows that the execution attempt goes awry, because of the "divine prank" where Ganondorf obtains the ToP on the CT, rendering the Sages unable to kill him, and he charges and kills the Sage of Water (note that these are not the OoT Sages, as they were never awakened on the CT). As an improvised plan, the Sages activate the Mirror of Twilight to banish him to the Twilight Realm, where he spreads his influence and entices Zant.

The sages in TP clearly state that Ganondorf did eventually invade Hyrule in hopes of establishing dominion over the sacred realm, further proving that Link and Zelda's plan did NOT work in the long run or that Ganondorf caught note of this and disappeared for a very, very long period of time before attempting to invade Hyrule once again.
This did not happen on the AT; the quotation you are referring to is this:
He was the leader of a band of
thieves who invaded Hyrule in the
hopes of establishing dominion
over the Sacred Realm.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_______________________________________
He was known as a demon thief, an
evil-magic wielder renowned for
his ruthlessness...
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_______________________________________
But he was blind...
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

_______________________________________
In all of his fury and might, he was
blind to any danger, and thus was
he exposed, subdued, and brought
to justice.
Notice the use of the phrase "hopes of establishing dominion," as it never explicitly says that Ganondorf had come close to securing dominion of the Sacred Realm; instead, he was "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" which fits in line very well with the notion that Link informed Zelda of Ganondorf's plans. Why wouldn't he? Link knew precisely what would happen, as he had experienced it all before; he retains his memories from the AT.

You would think that the guy would at least make some remark or statement towards Link, his clothes or his blade, if he had fought such a hero in his past (he certainly did in WW - he mentions the Hero of Time on several occasions,) but in TP, the exact same Ganondorf says nothing... Heavily suggesting that he was not totally defeated or sealed by a Hero in this timeline; much less the Hero of Time himself.
To an extent, you are correct; the primary reason that he does not recognize Link very well is because Ganondorf had not yet encountered the Hero of Time before the courtyard scene in OoT, and all their future encounters did not happen. The Hero of Time, however, remembers these encounters, whereas the CT Ganondorf has yet to experience them, and never does, because he is "brought to justice." Technically, the Hero of Time's heroics on the CT are mostly indirect, as he is not strong enough to confront Ganondorf without the Master Sword; neither is anyone else, hence why the execution failed and they had to banish him to the Twilight Realm. So, no, Ganondorf was not "defeated" per se, but merely set back.

Then there are the Hidden Skills - which is something that OoT/MM never learned throughout his adventures. However, watch a demo for SS, and you'll notice that SS Link shares many of the same moves so far. Oh, and his outfit bares an uncanny resemblance to TP Link's.... unlike OoT Link's, which is radically different.
This is of no relevance to theory; this is strictly gameplay mechanics. The Hidden Skills are not made of the stuff to constitute a pivotal argument, as they were merely things added in to the game to spice up combat. As for the tunic, that's just laziness in art style. OoT Link and OoX Link have similar tunics, yet they have no connection; I don't see how such a steadfast connection between the ancient Hero of SS and TP can be made with so little information about SS out there.
Really, the only evidence that supports this theory are they Howling Stone songs - most of which are from OoT/MM... But even then, we hear The Wind Waker theme, as well as two other songs whose themes are completely new and original.
Again, the melodies themselves are mostly gameplay-based, with little roots in theory; most of the melodies are just there as Easter eggs or cameo appearances of songs.

In closing, here is an excerpt from a post I made that expresses my thoughts on the matter fairly well:

DuckNoises said:
Her original request was only for Link to close the Door of Time so that Ganondorf could not break the Triforce, and Zelda's continued emphasis on him returning to "the way he was supposed to be" implies that she wants him to return to before he became the Hero of Time, and before he truly got started on his quest to gather the Spiritual Stones. This implies that Zelda originally intended for Link to return to his childhood, to live his life as if they had never met, but it sounds like Link went above and beyond Zelda's demands and saved Castle Town by warning them of the attack. To me, this sounds what the Hero's Shade is referring to when he says he "chose to be the Hero." It implies a strong sense of nobility in Link that he would choose to save Hyrule and then Castle Town, even after he was no longer obliged to do so. This would explain all the reverence that exists for the Hero of Time on the Child Timeline, or it could merely be the fact that the exploits of the Hero of Time when he was on the Adult Timeline were shared when he returned to the Child Timeline. This does not necessarily preclude the notion that the Hero of Time went on to have further adventures on the Child Timeline after saving Termina, but it doesn't have to be necessary. At this point, by extension of Occam's Razor, there isn't a necessity to assume that there were heroics other than those already stated, as it doesn't look like further events are eluded to on the timeline after TP.

Locke said:
He couldn't have been referring to his journey in Termina because he didn't know the hidden skills at that point. It was during his "life as a hero" when he learned the lessons. So this life must have happened after he returned to Hyrule. This leads to the second bolded phrase of the section of my article I posted. He became the hero the people of TP remember sometime after both of the previous games.


The Hero's Shade could very well be referring to his time on the Adult Timeline; remember that he is still the Hero of Time in spirit (accidentally profound phrasing), and he possesses all the memories and experiences of the Adult Timeline. He remembers every thing that he used to defeat Ganondorf (as is suggested by him remembering/re-learning many OoT melodies in MM), and the same is true for sword techniques. He doesn't necessarily have to develop "hidden sword techniques" in name by going on another adventure -- they can just be named alternatives of things he learned when he saved Hyrule on the Adult Timeline (named exclusively for gameplay purposes in TP). Again, this brings us back to the notion of "choosing to be the Hero"; rather than abandon his past (well, technically, his future :xd: -- the stuff he did on the Adult Timeline) he chose to relive the life of a Hero rather than go back to his humble beginnings in Kokiri Forest after closing the Door of Time.

The notion of revisiting his past is perhaps why OoT ends with Link returning to the courtyard where he first meets Zelda rather than in Kokiri Forest, the place of his childhood; this has a fair number of implications, the most important of which being the implication that he returned to the place where he first legitimately set out on his journey as a hero, which implies that he would make that choice again in saving Castle Town. Had he returned to Kokiri Forest rather than Hyrule Castle Courtyard, we would almost definitely assume that he chose to resume his childhood. But that notion is not entirely thrown away, as suggested by the ending of Majora's Mask, which has him returning to (what appears to be) Kokiri Forest with Skull Kid and the wood carving on the tree, which implies that he got to have some of his childhood, but still, not as he would have originally had it. Alternatively, it could be interpreted that all these events seem to separate him from his childhood, seemingly implying that he was chosen by fate to remain a hero upon making the decision to save Castle Town; perhaps his fate was sealed as the Hero because he returned with the Triforce of Courage. Its significance is often skimmed over, so perhaps this could be its true intention, that the ToC keeps him noble and heroic, and influenced his decisions to save Hyrule once again.

Now, the bit about the bloodline; another implication of the Castle Courtyard ending with Zelda is perhaps a resolution to the romantic subplot in OoT. By choosing to revisit the path of the Hero, that subsequently meant that he would have to work closer with Zelda to prevent Ganondorf's attack to come to fruition. Now, I won't go into details about what this implies, but maybe this resolves the whole "Hero's bloodline" issue as suggested by Locke's Japanese TP quotation. (How did rabid fangirlism work its way into my post? Curse you, interwebs! :lol:) On the other hand, the phrase "My child" is very likely just the Hero's Shade addressing TP Link with a sense of seniority; regardless, the utterance of such a phrase doesn't preclude either notion one way or the other. Anyway, this ties in nicely with the whole Hero's bloodline and the choice of being the Hero again.

Now, why is it necessary that the Hero of Time dies in the second "bout" of heroism? Could he not have died merely of old age? One doesn't have to die young to remain a revered Hero in the sense that the Hero of Time was -- he could have merely aged and died an old swordsman, having been a hero in youth. In fact, that's often been the case in recent Zelda games with Sword Techniques. I see the fact that he appears as a Stalfos as merely symbolic, both in the sense that they need a physical manifestation of him to demonstrate the sword techniques, in addition to the notion that the Hero would need a "deceased" form to provide a greater, more ominous presence, similar to how Hamlet's father appears as a ghost in Hamlet; to see him physically is not entirely necessary, but it furthers the intrigue.

At any rate, I think that the "choice" is merely a reference to his achievement in preventing Ganondorf's attack; we can't be so certain yet that he was involved in any war between MM and TP.
 
K

kupo?!

Guest
Apart of the items having no resembles to MM link,

It's not his son because if Hero's shade WAS Oot link. He died 100 years ago (because TP is 100 years after Oot). if Oot link had TP link as a son, Then TP link would be about 80 years old.

I do believe that hero's shade has some connection to one of the past links. Just don't believe that he is the father of the link in twilight princess.
 
K

kimahri

Guest
Honestly, I don't think the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time, but he is a Link, my guess on who he is is proboly the Skyward Sword link or just a well known "Hero" in general, but im sticking to the Hero's Shade being Skyward Sword Link. And for Hero Shade's gear looking identical to the HoT's MM gear, I disagree except for the sheild, it looks a little like the MM mirror sheild, but still barely.

And with his infamous line when he calls Link his "child" is just like...it's like, i don't know how to put it...it's like elderly speach, there we go, elderly speach, i don't think Hero's Shade was literaly reffering to link as his child, just as like his deciple or aprentice or some bs word like that(haha).
 

DuckNoises

Gone (Wind) Fishin'
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Location
Montreal, QC, Canada
I didn't intend to imply that TP Link was the Hero of Time's son with the use of the phrase "child," but rather that it was an indication of blood relation (and not necessarily an immediate one). Again, it's more likely that the speech mannerisms of the Hero's Shade are just there to indicate a sense of authority or seniority.
 

LinkLover

You Mean, Green Thing
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Location
Amsterdam, NY
I think that the hero's shade is related to Link by blood, but it is not immidiate. In TP, he references Link as his child, and also uses the term we instead of you when talking about saving Hyrule. Also, both the shade and Link have two forms: wolf and human. This to me symbolizes not only their similar paths of heros, but their blood relation. I do not think they are related directly because there is no evidence to suggest that theory. Of course, this is my opinion. I admit I may be wrong.:)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom