Link and Zelda's Relationship in Skyward Sword

[Dio]

People don't get that we're supposed to be Link, if Link falls in love with someone, it wouldn't be our choice, which would completely ruin the point of him being called Link.

I know that I didn't like Ilia in Twilight Princess, and I didn't give a fudge about what happened to her. I would choose Malo over Ilia in a Twilight Princess relationship, but nooooo, I have to care more about Ilia.

(As you can probably see from my two last post in this thread, I am extremely against a Link and Zelda relationship. I don't mind that saving damsels in distress thing, I just want to choose Nintendo!)

I understand where you are coming from in Twilight princess about Ilia but perhaps if Nintendo gave you a reason to care about her you would have felt differently. Aryll's character in the wind waker was handled really well and I found that I really wanted to go and save her because of how nice she came across in the beginning of the game. Obviously no romance there as they are siblings but perhaps if zelda's character is handled the right way so that it makes you care for her then could you then be happy with a romantic relationship?

 

[Locke]

I don't understand this viewpoint. It's not like we're really given choices in Zelda to begin with... In all Zelda titles that I can think of, you pretty much just play the game and follow the storyline. And if you choose not to do this, you don't progress in the game! I suppose we have the choice of whether we want to pursue side quests and pieces of heart, but that's pretty inconsequential to the outcome of the game.

We may not be able to choose what we do, but we should be able to control how we feel about it, and to some extent how we react to it personally (unrelated to game progression).

With the graphics and gameplay becoming more deeper, why should Link be that shallow and have his motive be filled by the player.

Because Link is a barrier between the player and the world (including graphics and gameplay). If that barrier is "shallow" or "thin," it's much easier to imagine yourself breaking through it and becoming a part of the experience. The void of Link's personality and motive pulls on your own to get you more involved. This concept has been explained countless times by the developers as why Zelda is so successful. Take this recent interview for example. Never is the word "Link" used. Players say "Wow." Players live in a "miniature garden." Players gain a sense of pride and confidence. Players become impressed by their own actions. The Player has a lot of abilities.

No, I do get it. What you're saying is that Zelda should be an impersonal experience.

That's the opposite of what he's saying. If Link has his own relationships, then they're his, not the player's - impersonal. If the player fills Link's character, then the player has a very personal experience with the game world and characters. Impersonal entertainment like movies have the audience saying "I hope character x has a great relationship with character y because they really seem to love each other." The audience has very little involvement with this situation, aside from simply shadowing the events with their own hopes. Video games, specifically Zelda games, are interactive experiences at their core. The player isn't watching the story unfold; the player is a part of the story, which leads me to my next point.

I understand where you are coming from in Twilight princess about Ilia but perhaps if Nintendo gave you a reason to care about her you would have felt differently. Aryll's character in the wind waker was handled really well and I found that I really wanted to go and save her because of how nice she came across in the beginning of the game. Obviously no romance there as they are siblings but perhaps if zelda's character is handled the right way so that it makes you care for her then could you then be happy with a romantic relationship?

I can agree with this. If Link's story is to draw us in to fill it, then it would be best for us to want to fill it, to make the decisions the writers 'force' (too strong... more like 'suggest') on us really seem like our own. I'm supposed to save Zelda, so I'd better want to save her. If it's just for the moral duty of helping others and fighting for values, that works fine. If there's a more specific reason, all the better. Yes, I hope that Zelda is a likable character like Aryll. I wouldn't mind her being very close to Link, as long as - not to sound weird - any feeling he displays toward her seem like my own. I don't want to watch Link go around discovering things, interacting with characters, and fighting evil; I want to go around discovering things, interacting with characters, and fighting evil.

 

[Cuju]

Thank you Locke, you have really helped me make my point. Making Link impersonal to a certain extent has always worked perfectly, it let's you, as Locke has said, "break the barrier". If Link has his own personality, were he talks, shows love to specific people, the Link in the game has a personality, but that would defeat the point of him. Link has always been nice, and helping, and also caring. These traits are enough for an engrosing experience, and they justify saving Zelda, and helping the people of your choosing. If Link were to fall in love with someone, or have a thing for them, then it would be Link's relationship, and not ours.

I also have an other point I'd like to disscuss. Aonuma has said that Zelda has another side to her, a persona that can face the tremendous fate on her shoulders. Love doesn't really have a place in a setting in which this personal trait is exposed, which would be somber and mature. Link and Zelda would be both faced with adversity and have to concentrate on it, feelings for each other would be like two people making out in the middle of a battle field, i.e. it would just be stupid.

You might say "why can't they be together after the somber event has transpired?" Well, I don't think Zelda is going to remain as care free as she seems in the footage released after her ordeal, she will be matured and more of a grown-up. I think after the event she'll want her life to remain normal, and a relationship with Link wouldn't be.

And my final point is that hooking up with your childhood friend is super akward, how do I know? I been there, and it sucks afterwards.

 

[Azure Sage]

I don't mind them being in a relationship. I don't think Nintendo could ever do it in good faith, though. There are those who are ultimate "Link x insertnamehere" fanboys/girls, and an outright "Link x Zelda" relationship would enrage them. The last thing Nintendo needs is rabid fanboys sending them vulgar emails. Although, I would be fine with it. Just as long as it doesn't escelate to this level:

Spoiler

 

[Forlong]

You know, I have a bit of a problem with the "but Link is supposed to be the player" argument. I just don't get it because I don't feel that way. So him having more personality would alienate players and keep them from relating to him. But being a lefty never alienate right-handed people, being blond never alienated brown-haired people, and being a man has yet to alienate the female players. In truth, Link only represents about 1% of the population, so how can a little more personality or a personal relationship hurt?

 

[Kaynil]

It is because the 'connection' is not your physical but more so that as you interact in the game your form your own concepts in what characters you like and why, you make bond with them and feel compelled to help them. It doesn't matter if your alter-ego to get there, Link is different than you physically. People speak of Link's answers but leave sup to you to imagine the tone and words used. It has worked for me for the meeting-zelda conversation, it is not just a long monologue unless you are so into reading what she says next that you didn't stop. I am sure my head went "why didn't you advice the King?" when she was talking bout how great she was with dreams and how worrying was her last just to have her saying "yes... I told my father." and continue the conversation. I think this is what they mean about not giving him a given personality, you only imagine his words and manners, but I personally don't buy the whole make Link an empty sack without feelings so we feel connected.

I feel it is an illusion this sense of Link being empty and that his lack of emotions is what make him good, sure this works in sandbox make your character and take decisions and choose your own path. Link's path is already chosen, he will fulfil his destiny saving and helping whoever must be in order for the story to unfold. We don't have much choice aside "yes, I'll buy that" "No, please do not repeat what you said again" and "No. Not at this time". Many times in conversation you won't progress unless you have the conversation again to choose the option one.

Take the Illia example, it doesn't matter what you feel for her you know Link cares for her, because she is his childhood friend. You may not stand her but link does as we can see in the cinema of how he gets affected when she doesn't recognize him and... I liked that! Link has showed emotions since ocarina of Time and his infamous 'Le gasps'. Giving more depth-ness to the characters to understand better where they come from and why the choose to do what they do is not a bad thing nor something that will take from us the ability to feel immersed. We don't need a complete void, we need a geniusly played story so we can relate to the protagonist feelings to the point we feel them like our own. That make great books protagonist and I think it is what made great zelda games. That ability to make you care. In Termina I wanted to saved them all, because the way they immersed us inside their lives made us care.

So back into the thread, I wouldn't mind some cleverly put relationship between them being romantic or not. I care more for it to be credible, not something over-cheesy that seems forced.

 

[Cuju]

You know, I have a bit of a problem with the "but Link is supposed to be the player" argument. I just don't get it because I don't feel that way. So him having more personality would alienate players and keep them from relating to him. But being a lefty never alienate right-handed people, being blond never alienated brown-haired people, and being a man has yet to alienate the female players. In truth, Link only represents about 1% of the population, so how can a little more personality or a personal relationship hurt?

I'm not even going to try anymore, Link is a "Link" between the player and the game, if your "Link" had his own personality, then it wouldn't be a "Link". If you don't like how the developers made him a Link, than that's your problem.

For all people who want a Zelda game with a Link with some persona, go play the CD-i games...

 

[Forlong]

I'm not even going to try anymore, Link is a "Link" between the player and the game, if your "Link" had his own personality, then it wouldn't be a "Link". If you don't like how the developers made him a Link, than that's your problem.

For all people who want a Zelda game with a Link with some persona, go play the CD-i games...

The CDi games don't suck because Link has a personality. They suck because the controls are horrible, the plot is broken, and the graphics are terrible. Link's personality in those games is actually pretty good, or it would be if not for the childish dialog.

Link being the "link" to the players is a stupid pun I'm getting sick of. I don't feel any more connected to Link than I do to Master Chief or Cloud Strife. If you want a game where the main character really does feel like he's you, go play one of the Persona games. Those do exactly what you're describing. Zelda does not.

Also, I started a thread to see if I could disprove this "you give Link your own personality" argument and proved it to be a complete load of hogwash. I defined Link's personality as such: brave, noble, loyal, determined, and shy. The only one of these people disagreed with in general was the shyness. Only two people said they disagreed entirely, but only repeated exactly what you said. The fact that they didn't prove their statement by showing that they had a very different opinion of Link's personality then I did and the constant repeating of the same phrase over and over tells me that you really don't know if you have a good point or not.

Most everyone has an agreement on Link's personality in general. They have no problem with it. Link is an admirable person. The kind of person we would like to be. That's why we have fun playing as him. The point of video games is an escape from the problems in our real lives, and Link helps us do that. His personality doesn't have to be interchangeable with different players. It never had to be. If you asked Metroid fans if they had a problem with Samus being given more personality, you'd get a big fat "NO". The more personality a character has, the better.

 

[Cuju]

The CDi games don't suck because Link has a personality. They suck because the controls are horrible, the plot is broken, and the graphics are terrible. Link's personality in those games is actually pretty good, or it would be if not for the childish dialog.

Link being the "link" to the players is a stupid pun I'm getting sick of. I don't feel any more connected to Link than I do to Master Chief or Cloud Strife. If you want a game where the main character really does feel like he's you, go play one of the Persona games. Those do exactly what you're describing. Zelda does not.

Also, I started a thread to see if I could disprove this "you give Link your own personality" argument and proved it to be a complete load of hogwash. I defined Link's personality as such: brave, noble, loyal, determined, and shy. The only one of these people disagreed with in general was the shyness. Only two people said they disagreed entirely, but only repeated exactly what you said. The fact that they didn't prove their statement by showing that they had a very different opinion of Link's personality then I did and the constant repeating of the same phrase over and over tells me that you really don't know if you have a good point or not.

Most everyone has an agreement on Link's personality in general. They have no problem with it. Link is an admirable person. The kind of person we would like to be. That's why we have fun playing as him. The point of video games is an escape from the problems in our real lives, and Link helps us do that. His personality doesn't have to be interchangeable with different players. It never had to be. If you asked Metroid fans if they had a problem with Samus being given more personality, you'd get a big fat "NO". The more personality a character has, the better.

I completely agree with you that Link has the personal traits of being noble, brave, loyal, and always helping, but having him in a relationship would ruin (pardon me for saying this) Link. As Locke has said before, we choose how we feel about things in the game, and that's what makes it a link. We have no choice to save Hyrule in the games, but we can choose how we feel about the people in the game, so if Link was in a relationship that started during the game, and not before, than that wouldn't be our feelings.

So, are we cool?

 

[monkeyguy3]

The CDi games don't suck because Link has a personality. They suck because the controls are horrible, the plot is broken, and the graphics are terrible. Link's personality in those games is actually pretty good, or it would be if not for the childish dialog.

Link being the "link" to the players is a stupid pun I'm getting sick of. I don't feel any more connected to Link than I do to Master Chief or Cloud Strife. If you want a game where the main character really does feel like he's you, go play one of the Persona games. Those do exactly what you're describing. Zelda does not.

Also, I started a thread to see if I could disprove this "you give Link your own personality" argument and proved it to be a complete load of hogwash. I defined Link's personality as such: brave, noble, loyal, determined, and shy. The only one of these people disagreed with in general was the shyness. Only two people said they disagreed entirely, but only repeated exactly what you said. The fact that they didn't prove their statement by showing that they had a very different opinion of Link's personality then I did and the constant repeating of the same phrase over and over tells me that you really don't know if you have a good point or not.

Most everyone has an agreement on Link's personality in general. They have no problem with it. Link is an admirable person. The kind of person we would like to be. That's why we have fun playing as him. The point of video games is an escape from the problems in our real lives, and Link helps us do that. His personality doesn't have to be interchangeable with different players. It never had to be. If you asked Metroid fans if they had a problem with Samus being given more personality, you'd get a big fat "NO". The more personality a character has, the better.

I agree with this so much. Some well said points in this. In my opinion, the whole "link to the player" thing hasn't been relevant to the series for quite some time.

When you can enter the life of a character, and feel a little of what they're feeling, really get to know them... that's just good storytelling. I don't buy the whole argument that forms of storytelling such as movies are a more shallow medium. I can't help but think those people must have a pretty narrow catalog of movie experiences. I think one of the keys to telling a great story in movies and videogames is creating diverse and personable characters that the audience can have different opinions of. I'd much rather see characters (even main characters like Link and Ganon) have complex morals that tread into gray areas rather than the black and white "Link is good, Ganon is evil" approach.

I realize that the format for Zelda games has historically been heavily themed with "light vs dark, good vs evil" sorts of plot lines... but hey, they said that they wanted to change up the format of Skyward Sword a bit, didn't they? I think change is good and it's about that time to make some changes, though that may not be the aspect of the game that they were referring to when they said they were going to switch it up.

In the end, I think different people may just value different things about the game. I really do value the exchanges that Link has with the diverse range of NPCs. It's one of my favorite aspects of the game, exploring the worlds and meeting new characters. I just think it could be handled in a deeper way if these exchanges weren't such a one way street. I'll also say that I like the fact that Link doesn't speak... but on the other hand I don't think giving him a voice would be a bad thing. it really just would depend on how the developers want to communicate his personality.

I'm not trying to step on any feet here, just saying how I feel about the game. I think it's a little goofy that we have this "reputation" thing and people rate you down just for having a different opinion.

 

[Cuju]

I think Link should have his few basic traits, he should always be a kind helping boy, I just don't know how a Link and Zelda relationship would work. If someone makes a good argument about it I'll shut up.

I just don't think that Link would have a relationship with someone after what Nintendo did with Twilight Princess with Link just leaving Ilia behind.

 

[Fig]

In the Nintendo Power Magazine, the staff said after you beat the bird race twice, Zelda jumps into Link's lap! I think that's very cute of Zelda.

Heroes of Nintendo*!!!!!!!!



*Add me/Join the group for more info!!

 

[JuicieJ]

In the Nintendo Power Magazine, the staff said after you beat the bird race twice, Zelda jumps into Link's lap! I think that's very cute of Zelda.

Heroes of Nintendo*!!!!!!!!



*Add me/Join the group for more info!!

Part of the story is her jumping down with her harp in her hands and Link catching her. It was nothing romantic, though.