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Linear Timeline expanded

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Really great stuff. I made an account after reading this thread because this really speaks to the quality here. Thanks for all your effort!
Thank you, and welcome to the dungeon!
I have a question, I guess this applies to both linear and multiverse but why does Link revert back into a child after he travels back in time? It doesn't really make sense for that to happen, especially with how we see time travel done in SS. It's weird in general but it makes the linear timeline even more confusing to me...
But if it's his mind does that mean at the end of Ocarina of time Link's adult body remains in Hyrule but in a comatose state?
From what I understand, the time travel in Ocarina of Time can reverse the body's aging. In Avengers: Endgame (another piece of time travel media), Hulk kinda off-handedly says that "you can flow through time or time can flow through you" or something, and in Ocarina of Time, because we see that the time travel (both from the Master Sword and from Zelda's Lullaby at the end) reverses aging and alters the entire world, it would make sense that it is Link's same body that travels back and forth, not just the mind.

This reading supports the Linear Timeline as it means that when Zelda sends Link back in time at the end, she is just de-aging adult Link back to child Link, not erasing the other Link that was in Kokiri Forest. Therefore, there should be two Links, both children, in the "Child Timeline," but there isn't. Because the Multiverse timeline is wrong.

To make the reverse-aging make sense in a Multiverse timeline, you'd have to accept the possibility of spacial travel as well as time travel. The body from Kokiri Forest would have to be teleported from the forest to the Temple of Time for Link's mind to arrive in it from the future and the mind itself would have to have the capacity to possess the Triforce so Link could bring it from the future, but the Triforce dissipates upon death, meaning that "souls," in the immortal sense of the word, cannot possess the Triforce. All of this doesn't make much sense.
 
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Thank you, and welcome to the dungeon!


From what I understand, the time travel in Ocarina of Time can reverse the body's aging. In Avengers: Endgame (another piece of time travel media), Hulk kinda off-handedly says that "you can flow through time or time can flow through you" or something, and in Ocarina of Time, because we see that the time travel (both from the Master Sword and from Zelda's Lullaby at the end) reverses aging and alters the entire world, it would make sense that it is Link's same body that travels back and forth, not just the mind.

This reading supports the Linear Timeline as it means that when Zelda sends Link back in time at the end, she is just de-aging adult Link back to child Link, not erasing the other Link that was in Kokiri Forest. Therefore, there should be two Links, both children, in the "Child Timeline," but there isn't. Because the Multiverse timeline is wrong.

To make the reverse-aging make sense in a Multiverse timeline, you'd have to accept the possibility of spacial travel as well as time travel. The body from Kokiri Forest would have to be teleported from the forest to the Temple of Time for Link's mind to arrive in it from the future and the mind itself would have to have the capacity to possess the Triforce so Link could bring it from the future, but the Triforce dissipates upon death, meaning that "souls," in the immortal sense of the word, cannot possess the Triforce. All of this doesn't make much sense.
This makes a lot of sense, thanks for helping me figure this stuff out. I really enjoy fantasy more when it is consistent and coherent.

One thing I have always hated about the multiverse theory for the games is that it basically makes the main conflict meaningless, as infinite conflicts are constantly occurring in multiple Hyrules so why should we care about this specific one? What do my actions as the protagonist actually solve in that world? Also, the people I meet in my home universe are not the same versions that are saved by my actions in the end..

Plus, multiverse implies or at least supports free will and I don't believe in that, but that's an entirely different conversation!
Anyway, thanks for the welcome, really enjoying your thoughts on this.
 

Mikey the Moblin

sushi is a suspicious hello
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This reading supports the Linear Timeline as it means that when Zelda sends Link back in time at the end, she is just de-aging adult Link back to child Link,
auuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
NO, because she didn't use the master sword! The master sword's time travel is completely different than zelda's time travel, that's why using the master sword in the first place doesn't cause a timeline split
 
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The Problem of the Master Sword

NO, because she didn't use the master sword! The master sword's time travel is completely different than zelda's time travel, that's why using the master sword in the first place doesn't cause a timeline split
I mean, if the theory is that the Zelda universe exists as one of an infinite possible multiverses, then every time travel moment does create a new branch. Inherently. And the Master Sword has no special properties of time travel that would prevent that.

I think I'm going to track the Master Sword in this post.

In the split timeline, it is forged in Skyward Sword where it ends up resting in the Sealed Temple, disappears in Minish Cap and Four Swords, and is found resting in the Temple of Time in OoT.

DT: After Link's death, it is laid to rest in the Lost Woods both at the beginning and end of ALttP, a variant is found in Holodrum/Labrynna (I think canonically, we should put the Holodrum Master Sword as the true Master Sword of those games, for a couple of reasons I'll dive into later), then in ALBW, it's in the Lost Woods at beginning and end, and then in BotW (which we assume is DT), the Master Sword is still in the Lost Woods.

CT: After Link lays the sword to rest in the Temple of Time at the end of OoT, it remains there for MM and the beginning and end of TP, and it is absent from FSA.

AT: This is the confusing one. At the end of OoT, Zelda says that Link will "lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time," breaking the link of time travel. The best reading of this, in my estimation, is that Link leaves the Master Sword he has on his back with Zelda, who then lays it to rest in Hyrule Castle to be found in Wind Waker and shoved in Ganondorf's skull, and then put at the bottom of the sea.

I have a problem with the Adult Timeline part of this. If Link is laying the Master Sword to rest, how does it remain in the supposed Adult Timeline? The theories to explain this are equally as convoluted as the ones to explain the two Ocarina of Times. Either there are two Master Swords. No. Or Zelda sent Link back in time without the Master Sword she explicitly said she was sending him back in time with so that he could lay it to rest.

Ok, let's track the Master Sword in the Linear Timeline. It starts in Skyward Sword, where it is forged and put in the Sealed Temple, which becomes the Temple of Time by Ocarina of Time. Then, Future Link is sent back, lays the Master Sword to rest, closes the failsafe Door of Time, Past Link opens the Door of Time, uses the Master Sword, and then becomes Future Link, laying the Master Sword to rest and closing the loop. This Temple of Time, after the destruction of Hyrule Castle, becomes Hyrule Castle (as it seems like the Master Sword can't be moved? idk, if the Master Sword can be moved by other people then this isn't a problem.) Then they find it in Wind Waker, seal it in Ganondorf's skull. Then, before Four Sword Adventures, after the draining of the Great Sea, the sword is removed from Ganondorf's head and he is unsealed, where it then remains until the Sages in the backstory of A Link to the Past need to find it (read the manual for A Link to the Past; in it, they talk about the people of Hyrule "forging the Master Sword," which totally breaks canon). At the end of ALttP, the Master Sword is laid to rest again where it was found.

In Oracle of Agees and Seasons, the Master Sword is found one of seven ways. In Oracle of Ages, it is either given by an Old Woman in South Lynna, it is forged at the Restoration Wall by Patch after the Broken version is given by the Old Zora, or the Noble Sword is upgraded by Farore after she is given the necessary secret. In Oracle of Seasons, it is given by the man in the Clock Shop, the Noble Sword is upgraded by Farore, a Zora in Hero's Cave upgrades the Noble Sword and gives it to Link, or it is found in the Lost Woods. The version of these that allows the Noble Sword (White Sword) to remain as the same one found in Zelda 1 and matches the most evident canon is the Oracle of Seasons Master Sword being found in the Lost Woods. The Lost Woods is known to have portals to other realms (Termina, Zora's Domain, Death Mountain, the Temple of Time) and so having this Lost Woods connect to the ALttP Lost Woods means that there is no Master Sword duplication and that this sword can be the same sword found in ALBW after it is laid to rest at the end of Oracle of Seasons (Link doesn't have this sword in Link's Awakening). This is just the best option. So next is ALBW, where the Master Sword is found in the Lost Woods and ends in the Lost Woods. Then is Twilight Princess, where we learn that the Lost Woods location is actually where the old Temple of Time was located, and then in Breath of the Wild it is also in the Lost Woods.

Problems? The biggest problem is Ganondorf's unsealing, which we will go into deeper in a later post (the unsealing before Four Sword Adventures and before A Link to the Past). Other than that, this seems like a good way to explain the Master Sword in a Zelda non-multiverse. It doesn't have the age-old problem of the Master Sword in Wind Waker and there is kind of an explanation for why the Master Sword is missing in Minish Cap, Four Sword, and Four Sword Adventures that isn't there in the Split Timeline. Cool and fun and cool.
 
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You can drive yourself up the wall thinking about the inconsistencies in the timeline of this series.

I think it's just the result of poor planning and plot holes by the series creators.

They put very little thought into this compared to you and others.

One good thing about Breath of the Wild's story is that there are really only a couple of known events that happened for sure and one that we believe happened based on legend.

We have the events from 100 years ago, and the events of the game, but also the events we have some evidence happened 10,000 years ago based on the shrines and guardians and the calamity all returning.

Everything else, the events of all the other games we as people in the real world played, are all just now "legends" that might have or might not have happened at all.

Legends that were told down through the generations so that the inconsistencies can easily be explained as folklore. Tall tales. Floods, time travel, cities in the sky, tiny civilizations in the grass and in the woodwork of our lives, strange portals in the forest that lead to Alice in Wonderland like worlds with parallels to our own, dark magicians banished to different realms of existence.

It's all legend now.

All the games still exist to us in the real world and we can argue over where they stand in the confusing timeline and possible metaverses.

But Nintendo has washed their hands of it and gave us a chance to too.

The thing we know maybe for sure is there's always been a hero, and spiritual maiden, and a malicious entity threatening the world.

All else is fantasy fiction. Come back to earth.
 

Skunk

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If we're talking alternate timeline models, I'll toss my hat into the ring! Behold, the Cluster Timeline Model :bear:

Looking at the development of the games, it's clear that there are little chunks the games are developed in. You could choose to put them all in a single line, or make branching lines, but I think this isn't the best way to interpret them. Instead, it's better to take them as groups which have interior linearity, but may or may not have linearity across groups. The reason why I think this model is more useful than either a single- or multi-branch one is that it takes thematic similarity as the primary point of continuity. It gets around a lot of the discussion about how the time travel in the series affects timeline placement by situating time travel within specific narrative contexts as a narrative device. As well, it makes for a more enjoyable experience when actually playing the games; not only are there thematic through lines within the narratives of games in a cluster, but there's also through lines with the evolution of gameplay. The major limitation I have with proposing this model is that I haven't played every major game in the series. But I still think it's worth adding to the discussion.

My clusters, named as they are because I think it's fun, would be roughly like this:

The Legends of Ruin: The War
The first four games in the series fit into this cluster, as well as the Oracle games(though not in the way they typically are grouped with these games) and A Link Between Worlds. While the actual in-game narrative of the first two games is rather light, the instruction manuals do give them some more weight. The Imprisoning War is set as a cataclysm which Hyrule never truly recovers from; Ganon is always there in the background, waiting to break free. And even though he's defeated in the Sacred Realm, the delayed end of the kingdom of Hyrule still plays out. Hyrule becomes a title for a wider region, and the kingdom itself becomes an obscure relic of a bygone age. Zelda is just from an obscure kingdom in Hyrule. When Ganon returns, there's not even really much of a way to resist him; Link is just some kid Impa finds to help her who then decides to go on a very dangerous quest alone. After the Triforces of Power and Wisdom are recovered, there does seem to be an effort to look back into the history of Hyrule, as well as the seemingly forgotten Triforce of Courage. But this cluster ends with that kind of backward-looking feel. Hyrule's best days are behind it, but there's not nothing left to take out of the ashes. Link's Awakening is kind of a microcosm of the cluster; a peaceful land steadily can't maintain the problems it suppresses until they break out and bring about the end of that land, but its legacy still survives in part(Marin, the Wind Fish). The Oracle games, then, serve as an epilogue; the Triforce was able to be kept together, there's lots of places where people live good lives, and Ganon can be effectively defeated to prevent another cataclysm like the Imprisoning War. It's a a post- and post-post-apocalypse kind of thing. When it gets to A Link Between Worlds, Lorule acts as a kind of testing ground; Lorule is similar to the Hyrule which failed, and the experience of recovering has created a Link who can help prevent history from repeating itself somewhere else.

The Legends of Understanding
This cluster contains Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Since time travel is the aspect that usually causes problems, I think it's important to look at why time travel is used at all in the story as opposed to finding a very literal way to understand its mechanics. Both of these games are focused on understanding people better. In Ocarina of Time, time travel is a way to convey the different kinds of access to problems and their solutions children and adults have. While seven years have passed, Hyrule is still Hyrule; Ganondorf taking over can't be the only thing that brought everything to ruin in such a short time. As a child, Link handles smaller problems that adults should probably be able to take care of, but don't because they're too mired in the flaws of their institutions. As an adult, Link has to help people recover from the failures of those institutions to protect against Ganondorf because he's come to be experienced enough to do so. But Link, even if it wasn't in his control, still left a lot of people he'd made connections with alone for almost a decade. It's possible to reconnect to a point, but things have changed, and it can't be the same as it was. That itself is a problem of growing up that can be hard to deal with. Majora's Mask's time travel is much more straightforward as a narrative device: it serves to contain the scope of the game. It creates a framework for the stories of the characters to play out on while also limiting progression in such a way that the story doesn't get lost in its own details. But putting time travel aside, both games are very focused on seeing how people's relationships develop given different circumstances, I just think people don't realize it as much with Ocarina since it's the major driving force of Majora.

The Legends of Cooperation
Minish Cap and the Four Swords games are in this cluster. Admittedly, I've only played one game(the first Four Swords) from this cluster extensively. But the idea is that even in Minish Cap, cooperation between Link and someone else is required to progress the story. Ezlo is important both in the narrative and gameplay in a way that characters like Navi and Tatl aren't. And of course, in the Four Swords games, Link has to cooperate with himself and the player has to potentially cooperate with other players. I could probably come up with more for this if I knew more, but the Four Sword itself is at least a through line.

The Legends of Ruin: The Flood
Broadly speaking, this cluster is really similar thematically to the other Legends of Ruin(hence the name). The three games in it(Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks) cover a generally similar progression as The War, except without an analog to A Link to the Past which gives an idea of what Hyrule used to be like. Yes, I know that game is Ocarina of Time, I'll get to fitting clusters together more later. It suffices to say for now that Ocarina doesn't really fit in as an intentional prequel in the same way that A Link to the Past does. Regardless, these three games are kind of a more developed version of the story from The War; Hyrule is destroyed and lost to time, uncovered in a quest to reunite the Triforce, there's a meditation on the end and survival past it, and then a resurgence. There may be other important through lines, but I haven't played any of Wind Waker, and haven't played the DS games recently enough to remember well.

That leaves a few clusterless games. I could probably put Twilight Princess in somewhere, the problem is that I haven't played it enough to know where :cucco: Skyward Sword doesn't lend itself well to the cluster structure intentionally; it's the earliest point and predates everything else in the series. Breath of the Wild is also unclear. However, it seems like a Legends of Ruin-type story we've yet to see the result of.

When it comes to aligning the clusters into something more unified, I think that sort of misses the point. It doesn't really matter which cluster comes before or after which; knowing Ocarina of Time's Hyrule is the one in Wind Waker doesn't really add much to that game. It's nice as a callback, perhaps, but seeing the party at the end of Ocarina and saying "Oh, this will all be underwater in a century" doesn't really mean much within the context of that game. You could try to place the clusters together, which is what I think the official timeline attempts to do, but they ultimately work better as co-existing clusters rather than a unified progression. At least, I think they do. :kikwi::bear::cucco:
 
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If we're talking alternate timeline models, I'll toss my hat into the ring! Behold, the Cluster Timeline Model :bear:

Looking at the development of the games, it's clear that there are little chunks the games are developed in. You could choose to put them all in a single line, or make branching lines, but I think this isn't the best way to interpret them. Instead, it's better to take them as groups which have interior linearity, but may or may not have linearity across groups. The reason why I think this model is more useful than either a single- or multi-branch one is that it takes thematic similarity as the primary point of continuity. It gets around a lot of the discussion about how the time travel in the series affects timeline placement by situating time travel within specific narrative contexts as a narrative device. As well, it makes for a more enjoyable experience when actually playing the games; not only are there thematic through lines within the narratives of games in a cluster, but there's also through lines with the evolution of gameplay. The major limitation I have with proposing this model is that I haven't played every major game in the series. But I still think it's worth adding to the discussion.

My clusters, named as they are because I think it's fun, would be roughly like this:

The Legends of Ruin: The War
The first four games in the series fit into this cluster, as well as the Oracle games(though not in the way they typically are grouped with these games) and A Link Between Worlds. While the actual in-game narrative of the first two games is rather light, the instruction manuals do give them some more weight. The Imprisoning War is set as a cataclysm which Hyrule never truly recovers from; Ganon is always there in the background, waiting to break free. And even though he's defeated in the Sacred Realm, the delayed end of the kingdom of Hyrule still plays out. Hyrule becomes a title for a wider region, and the kingdom itself becomes an obscure relic of a bygone age. Zelda is just from an obscure kingdom in Hyrule. When Ganon returns, there's not even really much of a way to resist him; Link is just some kid Impa finds to help her who then decides to go on a very dangerous quest alone. After the Triforces of Power and Wisdom are recovered, there does seem to be an effort to look back into the history of Hyrule, as well as the seemingly forgotten Triforce of Courage. But this cluster ends with that kind of backward-looking feel. Hyrule's best days are behind it, but there's not nothing left to take out of the ashes. Link's Awakening is kind of a microcosm of the cluster; a peaceful land steadily can't maintain the problems it suppresses until they break out and bring about the end of that land, but its legacy still survives in part(Marin, the Wind Fish). The Oracle games, then, serve as an epilogue; the Triforce was able to be kept together, there's lots of places where people live good lives, and Ganon can be effectively defeated to prevent another cataclysm like the Imprisoning War. It's a a post- and post-post-apocalypse kind of thing. When it gets to A Link Between Worlds, Lorule acts as a kind of testing ground; Lorule is similar to the Hyrule which failed, and the experience of recovering has created a Link who can help prevent history from repeating itself somewhere else.

The Legends of Understanding
This cluster contains Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Since time travel is the aspect that usually causes problems, I think it's important to look at why time travel is used at all in the story as opposed to finding a very literal way to understand its mechanics. Both of these games are focused on understanding people better. In Ocarina of Time, time travel is a way to convey the different kinds of access to problems and their solutions children and adults have. While seven years have passed, Hyrule is still Hyrule; Ganondorf taking over can't be the only thing that brought everything to ruin in such a short time. As a child, Link handles smaller problems that adults should probably be able to take care of, but don't because they're too mired in the flaws of their institutions. As an adult, Link has to help people recover from the failures of those institutions to protect against Ganondorf because he's come to be experienced enough to do so. But Link, even if it wasn't in his control, still left a lot of people he'd made connections with alone for almost a decade. It's possible to reconnect to a point, but things have changed, and it can't be the same as it was. That itself is a problem of growing up that can be hard to deal with. Majora's Mask's time travel is much more straightforward as a narrative device: it serves to contain the scope of the game. It creates a framework for the stories of the characters to play out on while also limiting progression in such a way that the story doesn't get lost in its own details. But putting time travel aside, both games are very focused on seeing how people's relationships develop given different circumstances, I just think people don't realize it as much with Ocarina since it's the major driving force of Majora.

The Legends of Cooperation
Minish Cap and the Four Swords games are in this cluster. Admittedly, I've only played one game(the first Four Swords) from this cluster extensively. But the idea is that even in Minish Cap, cooperation between Link and someone else is required to progress the story. Ezlo is important both in the narrative and gameplay in a way that characters like Navi and Tatl aren't. And of course, in the Four Swords games, Link has to cooperate with himself and the player has to potentially cooperate with other players. I could probably come up with more for this if I knew more, but the Four Sword itself is at least a through line.

The Legends of Ruin: The Flood
Broadly speaking, this cluster is really similar thematically to the other Legends of Ruin(hence the name). The three games in it(Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks) cover a generally similar progression as The War, except without an analog to A Link to the Past which gives an idea of what Hyrule used to be like. Yes, I know that game is Ocarina of Time, I'll get to fitting clusters together more later. It suffices to say for now that Ocarina doesn't really fit in as an intentional prequel in the same way that A Link to the Past does. Regardless, these three games are kind of a more developed version of the story from The War; Hyrule is destroyed and lost to time, uncovered in a quest to reunite the Triforce, there's a meditation on the end and survival past it, and then a resurgence. There may be other important through lines, but I haven't played any of Wind Waker, and haven't played the DS games recently enough to remember well.

That leaves a few clusterless games. I could probably put Twilight Princess in somewhere, the problem is that I haven't played it enough to know where :cucco: Skyward Sword doesn't lend itself well to the cluster structure intentionally; it's the earliest point and predates everything else in the series. Breath of the Wild is also unclear. However, it seems like a Legends of Ruin-type story we've yet to see the result of.

When it comes to aligning the clusters into something more unified, I think that sort of misses the point. It doesn't really matter which cluster comes before or after which; knowing Ocarina of Time's Hyrule is the one in Wind Waker doesn't really add much to that game. It's nice as a callback, perhaps, but seeing the party at the end of Ocarina and saying "Oh, this will all be underwater in a century" doesn't really mean much within the context of that game. You could try to place the clusters together, which is what I think the official timeline attempts to do, but they ultimately work better as co-existing clusters rather than a unified progression. At least, I think they do. :kikwi::bear::cucco:
I don't know why I've never even considered this but it really does make sense and makes everything a lot more coherent. So are you suggesting thinking of the prologue to WW as a legend the is similar to OoT thematically but ultimately different?
 

Skunk

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I don't know why I've never even considered this but it really does make sense and makes everything a lot more coherent. So are you suggesting thinking of the prologue to WW as a legend the is similar to OoT thematically but ultimately different?
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to play Wind Waker yet, but probably! Again, I don't think it's super important whether it's a direct followup since it seems thematically different to Ocarina of Time in relation to Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. If I played and replayed each game, and maybe did a little other research, I could probably amend it to be a more comprehensive model.
 
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An Explanation of the Timeline Givens

Legends that were told down through the generations so that the inconsistencies can easily be explained as folklore. Tall tales. Floods, time travel, cities in the sky, tiny civilizations in the grass and in the woodwork of our lives, strange portals in the forest that lead to Alice in Wonderland like worlds with parallels to our own, dark magicians banished to different realms of existence.
I love the Living Legend theory, however, it doesn't help us figure out lore aspects, which is why I prefer the Linear Timeline. I look to other series for mythopoeic analysis; I prefer using Zelda as an exploration of story via game design and scientific conceptions of multiverse and determinism: not many other series use time travel and alternate dimension as a focal point of their gameplay and narrative as frequently as Zelda (maybe Kang?)

Looking at the development of the games, it's clear that there are little chunks the games are developed in. You could choose to put them all in a single line, or make branching lines, but I think this isn't the best way to interpret them. Instead, it's better to take them as groups which have interior linearity, but may or may not have linearity across groups. The reason why I think this model is more useful than either a single- or multi-branch one is that it takes thematic similarity as the primary point of continuity. It gets around a lot of the discussion about how the time travel in the series affects timeline placement by situating time travel within specific narrative contexts as a narrative device. As well, it makes for a more enjoyable experience when actually playing the games; not only are there thematic through lines within the narratives of games in a cluster, but there's also through lines with the evolution of gameplay. The major limitation I have with proposing this model is that I haven't played every major game in the series. But I still think it's worth adding to the discussion.
This is a great way to think about the timeline.

For my linear timeline, I chunk games into a set of givens (that align decently with your clusters), which I will expand upon below:

First, we can start with the games that DIRECTLY reference the events of previous games, not through Easter Eggs, but with shared characters
1. Z1 and Z2 share the same Link.
2. ALttP and LA share the same LInk.
3. OoT and MM share the same Link.
4. OoA and OoS share the same Link.
5. ALBW and TFH share the same Link.
6. BotW and TotK share the same Link.
7. MC, FS and FSA share the same Vaati.
8. WW, PH and ST share the same Niko.
9/10. TP and SS have no recurring characters.

OoT/MM goes before WW/PH/ST as the opening of WW references OoT; ALttP/LA goes before ALBW/TFH as ALBW is in the same world as ALttP; MC/FS/FSA comes before ALttP, explaining how Ganon gets the Four Sword in ALttP+FS; Z1/Z2 come after ALttP/LA/ALBW/TFH for SS comes at the beginning; TP comes several hundred years after OoT/MM, explaining the ruined and moved Temple of Time (even more ruined and moved than in BotW); OoA/OoS go between ALttP/LA (they are all adventures of the Hero of Legend); OoT was the first appearance of Ganondorf after Demise's curse, putting SS right before OoT.

Givens after some merging:
1. SS/OoT/MM/WW/PH/ST
3. TP
4. MC/FS/FSA/ALttP/OoA/OoS/LA/ALBW/TFH/Z1/Z2
5. BotW/TotK

Where does TP go? Well, BotW/TotK come at the end of the timeline presumably after Z1/Z2, and TotK has a Gerudo-Ganondorf either from WW or TP (I'm going with TP Ganondorf) and thus TP comes either before or after Z1/Z2 (I'm going with TP before Z1) meaning TP comes sometime before or after ALttP-TFH (I'm going with TP after TFH).

Givens at the end of the merging:
1. SS/OoT/MM/WW/PH/ST
2. MC/FS/FSA/ALttP/OoA/OoS/LA/ALBW/TFH/TP/Z1/Z2/BotW/TotK


All that's left is to assume the Deku Tree Success Theory is correct, permit a gradual unflooding of the land of Hyrule, and we have our full linear timeline.

Or it's all a legend with recycled characters and themes in new locations and time periods being told out of order and entirely disconnectedly.
 
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The Problem of the Oracle Games

This is going to be controversial, I assume, considering the number of empassioned conversations I've had about this topic.

In the Hyrule Historia Zelda timeline, Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages, grouped together, take place before Link's Awakening, meaning that the Hero of Legend begins in A Link to the Past, goes on adventures in Holodrum and Labrynna, defeats Ganon and sails back to Hyrule, only to get stranded in Koholint before finally escaping and making it back to Hyrule.

In the Zelda Encyclopedia timeline, Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages, still grouped together, take place after Link's Awakening. This is the only change made to the timeline (besides ALBW and TFH being added), and it means that the Link from the Oracle games is a different Link than the one from Link's Awakening.

Let's begin with Zelda Encyclopedia's timeline: Where's the evidence?
- Zelda does not recognize Link in the Linked Oracle Games: "Thank you for rescuing me. My name is Zelda. You are Link right? I knew it at first glance."
- Link does not have a Triforce mark in Link's Awakening.
- Link is proclaimed a true hero by Zelda at the end of the game: "Now, hope and peace can return to the hearts of the people. Thank you! You are a true hero!...The guidance of the Triforce has made you into this legendary hero! Thank you Link!"
- Zelda would have sent Link, not Impa, to Holodrum and Labrynna.

Hyrule Historia evidence?
- In the Link's Awakening manual, it reads, "You fulfilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the Land of Hyrule enjoyed a precarious peace. "Who knows what threats may arise from Ganon's ashes!" the restless people murmured as they knitted their brows and shook their heads. Ever vigilant, you journey away from Hyrule on a quest for enlightenment, in search of wisdom that would make you better able to withstand the next threat to your homeland. Years of difficult travel passed. After a long and fruitful voyage, you breathed deeply the sea spray from the deck of the ship that carried you home to Hyrule."
- At the end of the Linked Oracle games, Link gets on a boat and sails, presumably, back to Hyrule, leading directly into the opening of Link's Awakening.
- Many of the Nightmares in Link's Awakening were found in the lands of Holodrum and Labrynna, not Hyrule. Either the Nightmares are manifestations of what the Wind Fish has seen, meaning Ganon would not be a Nightmare, or the Nightmares are manifestations of what Link has seen, meaning Facade would not be a Nightmare. Also, the Zelda sprite is the Marin sprite, just with a crown.
- Link is allowed into the Triforce room to come face-to-face with the Triforce and the Royal Family doesn't consider this a problem, suggesting he was already familiar with them from A Link to the Past.
- The Triforce also recognizes Link as the hero, something it began doing at the end of ALttP.

If there is more evidence for either of these sides, please let me know.

Now, which of these is most convincing? Some say that Zelda not recognizing Link in the Oracle games is immediately damning and means that this is a different Link and a different Zelda. Others say that the boat is damning and means that this is the same Link from A Link to the Past.

For the Linear Timeline, ALttP, OoA, OoS and LA all share the same Link. At the beginning of the game, Link is permitted into Hyrule Castle to see the Triforce because he saved all of Hyrule. At the end of the game, Link sets sail for Hyrule, only to crash in Koholint.
The reason Zelda introduced herself to Link was because she just got kidnapped and it was dark and she was flustered and it had been a couple years. Link doesn't have a mark in Link's Awakening because it was a dream. Link was proclaimed a hero at the beginning of the game, so Zelda doing it at the end is that special. And Ralph said that there were multiple messengers being sent from Hyrule, Link and Impa both.


Let's be charitable and poke holes in the positive evidence for these games sharing the same Link. The adventures mentioned in the LA manual are different adventures. The boat at the end of OoX and the beginning of LA are different boats. The Nightmares are generated from the Wind Fish only. Link snuck in to see the Triforce. The Triforce recognizes Link as a hero because it knows that he will save Holodrum and Labrynna, not because he is already a hero.

These just aren't as convincing, and it requires extra steps. I know it's dangerous territory to use developer intention to justify explanations, but why would they add Link leaving on a boat at the end of OoX, and then publish this as canon, if not because he was going to LA? Same thing with FSA before ALttP (which we have not talked about enough): why would the same team working on both games so deliberately make them the same world if not to suggest a connection? It just makes more sense that Zelda was confused then that two different Links went on two different adventures and came home on two different boats right after each other.

Now, to order OoA and OoS. This isn't that important, either can be played in either order, and no timeline differentiates, but let's do it anyway. Also SPOILERS, but you already knew that.

Let's look at what happens in each game when they are linked:
If Oracle of Ages is played after Oracle of Seasons, as is suggested by the manga timeline, three things change.
1. Impa is found outside the Black Tower with Zelda trapped inside, and Link goes into save her, allowing access to the Black Tower in the present. This is where Zelda introduces herself to Link.
2. Rosa appears on Crescent Island in the past and she and her fellow Subrosians dance at Rolling Ridge.
3. The Piratians appear in the present and allow access to the Sea of Storms in the present.
If Oracle of Seasons is played after Oracle of Ages, as is suggested by the Linear Timeline, two things change.
1. Zelda is attacked by Moblins and Link saves her. This is where Zelda introduces herself to Link.
2. Queen Ambi shows up to Holodrum and is going on her own adventure before reuniting with her husband the Piratian captain.

Another important note is the sword progression. I talked about this in the Master Sword post, but the Noble Sword/Master Sword is found in Oracle of Ages either from the Old Zora with the broken sword being repaired by Patch or from King Zora sharpening the lower-tier sword or from Farore. In Oracle of Seasons, the Noble Sword/Master Sword is found in the Lost Woods or from the Old Man behind the Clock Shop sharpening the lower-tier sword or from Farore.

This is really about what makes the best story, and canonically reuniting Ambi and the Piratian Captain is more important than Rosa meeting the Tokay and the Gorons, or accessing the Black Tower and the Sea of Storms in the present. Similarly, the most poetic combo for these is the Noble Sword being the Broken Sword in Labrynna and the Master Sword being in the Lost Woods in Holodrum. You wouldn't want to go through the entire Lost Woods just to find the Noble Sword; the story isn't as good. Finally, at the beginning of a Linked Oracle of Ages playthrough, Veran does not reference the events of OoS at ALL, whereas Onox does address the defeat of Veran at the beginning of a Linked OoS. This is also more poetic.

For these reasons, the Oracle games take place before Link's Awakening and after A Link to the Past, and Oracle of Ages comes before Oracle of Seasons.
 
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The Problem of Recurring Links:

This is a niche problem, and also probably deserves a separate thread, but we are here and we're doing it.

How many Links are shared between games?

Confirmed Links (Unconfirmed Links):
Hylia's Chosen Hero - (Skyward Sword)
The Hero of the Sky - Skyward Sword
The Hero of Time - OoT, MM, WW (drawing), (Twilight Princess)
The Hero of Winds - WW, PH, ST (drawing)
The Hero of Spirits - ST
The Hero of Men - (Minish Cap)
The Hero of the Minish - MC
The First Hero of the Four Sword - FS (mentioned), FSA (mentioned)
The Second Hero of the Four Sword - FS, FSA (mentioned)
The Hero of Light - FSA
The Hero of Twilight - TP
The Hero of Legend - ALttP, OoA, OoS, LA, (A Link Between Worlds)
The New Hero of Legend - ALBW, TFH
The Hero of Hyrule - Z1, Z2
The Ancient Hero - (Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom)
The Hero of the Wilds - BotW, ToTK

Most of these are straightforward, I could end the post without diving into much. BUT! Hylia's Chosen Hero, The Hero of Time in Twilight Princess, The Hero of Men in Minish Cap, and the Hero of Legend in A Link Between Worlds are all theorized by some, and by me, and by my timeline, to have been seen in game, wow CRAAAAZY. Ok calm down.

We've talked about this previously, but Hylia's Chosen Hero is likely the Hero of the Sky, the one we play as in Skyward Sword. Because the Hero defeats Demise in the past, the legend of Demise being defeated in the present matches up to when Hylia (Zelda) and Link did that very thing in the past. This is a good theory, and I like it.

The Hero of Time in Twilight Princess is also pretty well-set. The Hero's Shade, who teaches Link the sword scrolls and takes the form of a golden wolf, is likely (and confirmed by the books) to be the Hero of Time. Super nifty, the only change made for the Linear Timeline is that his death occurred in the Lost Woods after he lost Epona, and he was stuck there for years, waiting for a human Ganondorf and hero to re-emerge so that he could actually pass on his sword skills to the next hero.

The Hero of Men in the Minish Cap is probably Swiftblade the First, master swordsman. There aren't many other people in early un-flooded Hyrule's history who would be able to be called "Master Swordsman," and Swiftblade I matches the characteristics of a Link.

The Hero of Legend in A Link Between Worlds is probably Gramps, wielder of the Master Sword and 80-year-old super-gymnast. Gramps wields a Level 3 Master Sword and can summon Shadow Links; he wears the green garb and can do one-finger handstands. So either he's a wizard or he's ALttP Link.

That wasn't so bad; most of these are counted for in the Linear Timeline. The only one that may feel a little less satisfying is Twilight Princess, and I have been tempted many times over the last year and a half to just allow for the CT and AT branch split to make the Hero of Time being the Hero's Shade not have to take over 1000 years, but rules are rules and the multiverse is a lie, so the work continues.
 
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The Problem of Tears of the Kingdom and Twilight Princess:

TL;DR

The Ganondorf order for linear is:
- SS as Demise, stuck in Master Sword
- OoT as the First Ganondorf, sealed in Sacred Realm
- WW as the unsealed First Ganondorf, Master Sword through head
- Calamity 1: TotK as either the Unsealed First Ganondorf/Second Ganondorf, sealed in Depths
- Calamity 2: MC as the Demon King's Army, Bound Chest then defeated
- Calamity 3: FSA as loner-thief Second Ganondorf turned Pig Ganon, sealed in Four Sword
- Calamity 4: TP as thief-leader twilight Second Ganondorf, sealed in Twilight Realm
- Calamity 5: TP as thief-leader twilight Second Ganondorf unsealed
- Cataclysm 6: ALttP as FS unsealed loner-thief Second Ganondorf Imprisoning War
- Cataclysm 7: ALttP as SR unsealed loner-thief Second Ganondorf
- Calamity 8: OoX as resurrected loner-thief Second Ganondorf
- Calamity 9: ALBW as resurrected loner-thief Second Ganondorf
- Calamity 10: Z1 as resurrected loner-thief Second Ganondorf
- Calamity 11: Botw Ancient Hero's Sheikah battle against malice Second Ganondorf
- Calamity 12: BotW battle against resurrecting malice Second Ganondorf
- Upheaval 13: Second Ganondorf destroyed


So obviously this is a massive topic and I'm only going to dip my toe into it in this post, but everyone's already super skeptical about any of the evidence provided for linear, so I'm not going to dig too deep into it.

The present story of Tears of the Kingdom takes place after Breath of the Wild which takes place tens of thousands of years after Z2 and Z1, which takes place hundreds of years after ALttP-OoA-OoS-LA-ALBW-TFH. This is agreed upon by most people I think. Now, I place MC-FS-FSA before ALttP, like Nintendo Black Crisis and Lorulean Historian do. I place MC-FS-FSA after the unflooding of Hyrule (WW-PH-ST) I place OoT AT ending and CT ending on the same timeline (which is where everyone gets super skeptical with me). This means OoT-MM before WW. And then SS is game 1. To recap, that's
SS-OoT-MM-WW-PH-ST-MC-FS-FSA-ALttP-OoA-OoS-LA-ALBW-TFH-Z1-Z2-BotW-TotK

You'll notice I'm missing Twilight Princess. This was because I thought Twilight Princess Ganondorf was going to be much more explicitly TotK's Ganondorf. I placed it as a resurrected ALttP Ganondorf who was sealed and became the Calamity. This was not the case.

First, where does TotK backstory go?

There are a few spots:
Pre-SS
Post-SS, pre-OoT
Post-ST, pre-MC
Post-Z2, pre-BotW

That's really it.

I think post-ST, pre-MC works best. Mainly because of the Rito, and the lack of Triforce relevancy. Shortly after the unflooding of Hyrule, the Master Sword (lodged in Ganondorf's head) and the Triforce (fluttered to the Sacred Realm at the end of WW) are not in play. And so TotK Ganondorf, either recently unsealed from the Master Sword by Koume and Kotake, or an entirely new Ganondorf, is born, attempts to conquer Hyrule, is sealed while seeping malice and gloom, and begins the cycle of the Calamity.

It is unlikely that this is Ganondorf is the same from OoT, but it is most satisfying to have this be Ganondorf, unsealed from the Master Sword post-flood: some evidence TotK Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf is that he uses all the same tricks as TotK Ganondorf (the throne room scene, Phantom Ganon), his comfortability with waiting thousands of years to execute his plan, him resonating with the name "Link"). I think it could be read either way on the linear model, though obviously him being a new Ganondorf is much more in keeping with Occam's Razor.

Ok, so the flood subsides, Ganondorf's magic servants unseal him from the Master Sword in the desert or he is born anew, he gets sealed and is seeping malice and gloom, there's a bunch of DT Calamities/Cataclysms until BotW and TotK.

But where does TP fit, now that the "he's TotK Ganondorf sealed" theory is incorrect?

There are a few spots:
Pre-flood: doesn't work for Wind Waker backstory
Post-flood, pre MC-FS-FSA
Post-flood, pre-FSA
Post-flood, pre-ALttP-OoA-OoS-LA-ALBW-TFH
Post-flood, pre-Z1-Z2
Post-flood, pre-BotW-TotK.

I'm going to be completely honest and say that all of these are terrible, and the Twilight Princess problem often makes me want to give up on the entire linear timeline theory. But then I remember all the cross-timeline references, the lack of in-game split evidence, and the laws of physics.

Pre-flood is off the table.
Pre-MC-FS-FSA doesn't really work
Pre-FSA is where it is in the official split timeline
Pre-ALttP keeps the Dark Mirror and the Mirror of Twilight as the same object
Pre-Z1 is where I had it before, but now it also feels kind of like a cop out
Pre-BotW is kind of a cop out

I'm going to rule out pre-flood, pre-MC-FS-FSA, and pre-BotW.

The main issue here is Triforce and Master Sword lore. In Twilight Princess, the Master Sword is found in the Temple of Time which is found in the Sacred Grove. In A Link to the Past and A Link Between Worlds, this is also where the Master Sword is found, presumably also in the ruins of the Temple of Time.

So when was the Master Sword taken from the desert and moved to the Sacred Grove in the Lost Woods? Is the Temple of Time in BotW and TotK the same as the one from OoT, and if so how did the Lost Woods move there and then move back? Before Four Swords Adventures? We know FSA Zelda knew about the Master Sword, she has dialogue to its effect, so we can assume deep within that northwestern Lost Woods, the same from ALttP, the Master Sword rests.

All the answers suck: I'm going to go with an adjusted official timeline placement where I put TP after FSA, as the second incarnation of the Calamity/Cataclysm. The Dark Mirror is the Mirror of Twilight, and it is because of FSA that it is now protected by the sages. That makes sense. More sense then there are two different unseen mirrors that both do the same thing.

It also needs to bridge the WW-ALttP Triforce gap: in TP, the Triforce is split. Just like in the ending of the Oracle games, the Triforce splits, we see the Triforce fly up up and away above the clouds and split at the end of WW. Wherever it went, it manifested itself as tri-partite in the following Link, Zelda and Ganondorf in TP, before ALttP Ganon went searching for the whole thing in the Imprisoning War.

Just for my own sake, very neurotic, you can skip or answer question mark:
TP can't go before SS because pre-Demise
TP can't go before OoT cuz not 1st Ganondorf
TP can't go before MM cuz sequel
TP can't go before WW cuz no new AT hero
TP can't go before PH cuz sequel
TP can't go before ST cuz sequel
TP can't go before TotK Backstory cuz no Hyrule
TP can't go before MC cuz no Triforce
TP can't go before FS cuz sequel
TP can't go before FSA cuz Dark Mirror is Mirror of Twilight
TP can't go before ALttP cuz...gap in Ganondorf's (loner-thief, to thief-leader, to loner-thief) ?
TP can't go before LA cuz sequel
TP can't go before OoA cuz sequel
TP can't go before OoS cuz sequel
TP can't go before ALBW cuz sequel
TP can't go before TFH cuz sequel
TP can't go before Z1 cuz Triforce
TP can't go before Z2 cuz sequel
TP can't go before BotW cuz...Hero's Shade trains first Master Sword wielding Hero post-flood.
TP can't go before TotK cuz sequel

And that's TP and TotK, I think they work surprisingly well, although TotK is clunky and bad all around.
 
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The Dark Mirror is the Mirror of Twilight, and it is because of FSA that it is now protected by the sages. That makes sense. More sense then there are two different unseen mirrors that both do the same thing.
What if it's an imperfect recreation of the Mirror of Twilight? It can't bridge the two worlds, but it can allow echoes from one, weak simulacra, into the other?

We are led to believe the Dark Mirror was once the Mirror of Twilight. But what if it's the broken Mirror of Twilight recreated? Not capable of what it once was as a bridge, but instead a way to let some of that darkness energy in.

My latest Skyward Sword theory uses the idea of Hylia's time gates having access to a "memory update" timeline that she can use to try new tactics against Demise. The Triforce on the Gates tells me that perhaps Hylia-as-Zelda wished in order to create them. It took a Triforce wish to create these gates. And what the wish REALLY did, what ALL Triforce wishes do are system updates to "World of Hyrule" in the sense of if it's a computer simulation in memory. Certainly, A Link To The Past reflects that concept. This is from the metaphorical (not literal) idea from the Famicom original concept of Link as an entity living in a computer chip (like Tron). The Zelda franchise has always paid homage to this. The way the metaphor works is that the "gods" of the very real and normal Hyrule, are similar to the same computer programmers programming the world. So it's not literal, but the (cue Japanese culture) feeling or impression of the programmer making Hyrule in the game is the same as the gods making Hyrule.

So what Hylia's gate does is grant access to a "memory update" timeline that will eventually replace the old timeline, in set of endless time loops until Demise is defeated. This second timeline is the product of a Triforce wish. A "try it again" timeline.

The Mirror of Twilight also bears the Triforce symbol. This leads me to think that it was created as a Triforce wish. That the Twilight Realm is a world that is part of whatever overall universe simulation Hyrule is within, but one which is NOT supposed to be accessible. It's said that the two worlds near at dusk and dawn, and whatever relationship they do have, it's expressed loosely in these moments. But otherwise the two realms are completely disconnected.

So a Triforce wish could rewrite the rules, and grant access to a world that shouldn't be accessible in the "simulation". Hence, the mirror of twilight. You would have to imagine the wish takes the form of, "I wish there was a world I could send powerful beings that was so far from ours, there was no way for them to return." And the Mirror of Twilight becomes the object which receives power from this wish.

Once destroyed, you cannot recreate the Mirror without the Triforce. But perhaps some of its power remains to a degree.
 

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