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Life or Choice? The Abortion Discussion

Life or choice?


  • Total voters
    36

Musicfan

the shadow mage
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I do view fetuses as psudoparasites until they are no longer attached. Would you be OK if the mother just had the cord cut out on life support at no cost to the mother (the life support). Would you consider that murder if the child dies on life support? Because you are not neglecting the child every thing is being done to make it live.
 

misskitten

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I do not believe that potential medical issues the baby might have justifies an abortion unless the medical condition is chronic, causes constant pain or depression, and is not treatable (an example of this would be Tay-Sahcs). If you are talking about the medical issues of the woman, I don't think that giving birth will cause any sudden medical complications that are too serious. If a woman has some kind of medical condition that can cause serious damage to herself when giving birth, it's important to use protection.

I never said that the baby's rights are more important than the rights of the woman getting an abortion, but they still have rights. One of the most basic rights of humans (or anything for that matter) is life. I also never mentioned anything about people being forced to donate organs upon death, though it is certainty their right to do so if they wish.
Apparently you don't consider severe blood loss, blood clots, post-partum depression, post-partum psychosis, or death to be "too serious" (and I'm just picking a couple of things from the list, really). Or have you just not looked into it and only assumed that nothing too serious could come from it because that fits your worldview? It's a farily straining thing on the body, you know, not to mention the 40-ish weeks leading up to it. A lot of things could go wrong, and sure many women do have successful pregnancies and uncomplicated births and even choose to go through it more than once. Doesn't mean the risks aren't there, and that we should force them upon an unwillingly pregnant woman.

It's fine to not like abortions. No one actually likes them, regardless of which side they fall on in the debate. But, you know the best thing to prevent abortions? To prevent the pregnancy to happen in the first place. Supporting better education about contraceptives, supporting better access to and more affordable contraception options. What also could help prevent abortions? Improving the societal circumstances that make some women feel like abortion is their only choice - like more affordable healthcare, financial support for low-income families, especially single mothers, better funding for the foster care system, affordable daycare. Or if the people who spend their time protesting, picketing women's clinics, harassing women going in - if instead of doing that they chose to foster/adopt a couple of kids. Put their money where their mouth is so to speak.

It might not stop all of them, but it would significantly reduce their occurence, which believe it or not, actually is the desired outcome for both sides. Pro-choice means wanting to eliminate the need for the service rather than the service itself.
 

Hero of Pizza Time

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Apparently you don't consider severe blood loss, blood clots, post-partum depression, post-partum psychosis, or death to be "too serious" (and I'm just picking a couple of things from the list, really). Or have you just not looked into it and only assumed that nothing too serious could come from it because that fits your worldview? It's a farily straining thing on the body, you know, not to mention the 40-ish weeks leading up to it. A lot of things could go wrong, and sure many women do have successful pregnancies and uncomplicated births and even choose to go through it more than once. Doesn't mean the risks aren't there, and that we should force them upon an unwillingly pregnant woman.

It's fine to not like abortions. No one actually likes them, regardless of which side they fall on in the debate. But, you know the best thing to prevent abortions? To prevent the pregnancy to happen in the first place. Supporting better education about contraceptives, supporting better access to and more affordable contraception options. What also could help prevent abortions? Improving the societal circumstances that make some women feel like abortion is their only choice - like more affordable healthcare, financial support for low-income families, especially single mothers, better funding for the foster care system, affordable daycare. Or if the people who spend their time protesting, picketing women's clinics, harassing women going in - if instead of doing that they chose to foster/adopt a couple of kids. Put their money where their mouth is so to speak.

It might not stop all of them, but it would significantly reduce their occurence, which believe it or not, actually is the desired outcome for both sides. Pro-choice means wanting to eliminate the need for the service rather than the service itself.
Nobody's arguing that giving birth doesn't have side effects. However, abortion can also cause serious side effects such as damage to organs, bleeding, depression (as mentioned above) and death. http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/abortion-side-effects/

Even after a successful abortion, pain, nausea, and abdominal swelling still might follow.

Most pro-lifers are not trying to "force (risks) upon an unwillingly pregnant woman." It has been stated multiple times above by other pro-lifers that a rape case should be acceptable grounds for an abortion. Other than that, the only other case in which an abortion would be alright would be if a pregnant woman has a sizable chance of dying after giving birth due to some medical issue.

You're absolutely right. Preventing pregnancies from happening in the first place is one of the best ways to prevent an abortion. The use of protection (i.e condoms) is a perfectly moral and safe method of birth control. I feel like affordable healthcare and welfare is a different issue so I'm just going to ignore that part.

"Pro-choice" is traditionally used in the context of supporting the idea of allowing the option to abort a baby, and I don't think it's right to allow that option to anyone who wants it. It is deeply immoral to permanently destroy the life of a human being simply for the individual's convenience. A lot of "pro-choicers" and people who get abortions really don't understand this so I don't condemn them, but parents are supposed to care for their children whether they are inside or outside of the womb.
 
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I feel like affordable healthcare and welfare is a different issue so I'm just going to ignore that part.
Not entirely. If you're going to be pro-life then you have to stand for affordable healthcare and financial support in general. Things that provide for the family and child outside the womb. Not saying that you necessarily don't support those things. However if you didn't, you'd be working against your own aims by ignoring structural violence against the family and child as a whole
 

Hero of Pizza Time

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Not entirely. If you're going to be pro-life then you have to stand for affordable healthcare and financial support in general. Things that provide for the family and child outside the womb. Not saying that you necessarily don't support those things. However if you didn't, you'd be working against your own aims by ignoring structural violence against the family and child as a whole
Then while we are on that subject, I do think that affordable healthcare needs to be a thing, but I think it would be much better if businesses were just required to pay for health insurance. However, welfare is really supposed to be for people who are disabled and actually can't work. I think that public works projects would work better for people who need to provide for their family but can't get a job.
 

Musicfan

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Then while we are on that subject, I do think that affordable healthcare needs to be a thing, but I think it would be much better if businesses were just required to pay for health insurance. However, welfare is really supposed to be for people who are disabled and actually can't work. I think that public works projects would work better for people who need to provide for their family but can't get a job.
It's really hard to get a job if your a single mother with an infant. Also that job probably won't allow the mother to afford child care.
 

Alita the Pun

Dmitri
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Not entirely. If you're going to be pro-life then you have to stand for affordable healthcare and financial support in general. Things that provide for the family and child outside the womb. Not saying that you necessarily don't support those things. However if you didn't, you'd be working against your own aims by ignoring structural violence against the family and child as a whole
I think the the thing is, we need to eliminate the chance of unplanned pregnancies. Personally, I believe that sex should not be experienced outside of marriage. I don't believe that condoms and contraceptives are the way we should deal with these issues. if people are having sex outside of marriage (or even in a marriage) they need to understand the consequences. this goes for the man and woman. If you are going to have sex you need to be mature enough to realize the consequences (namely, pregnancy) and you need to be able to support that child in the chance that a pregnancy occurs. thats my personal belief. now I am a pro life supporter but I don't believe that increasing the circulation of contraceptives is the best way to approach this issue. people should not be having sex if they are not ready to face the consequences. now in the case of rape, ive already stated that I think that there is a gray area there and im not really sure what to think, however, I am still researching it and deciding what I think about it
 

Stormageden747

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The chances of a condom breaking are very slim. Especially if you use lubricant and stuff. Also, I recently discovered a new way to not get pregnant that works 100% of the time! It's called not having sex. So if you don't want a child go to the dollar store and pick up a pack of condoms for $4 or something. If your condom ends up breaking, just suffer through the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption. You knew the risks when you had sex, so you shouldn't be murdering someone just because of your mistakes.
 

Mellow Ezlo

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"Mistakes". Having sex, even just for pleasure, is as natural as going for jogs, playing video games, and even eating breakfast. Might as well tell literally every other mammal in the world to stop having sex for pleasure.

There are too many variables surrounding sex and contraceptives to say they're even remotely foolproof. Even with lubricant, condoms can break, especially cheap ones. Birth control pills can be effective, but can also have really unfortunate side effects. Even consider, for example, the male partner pokes a hole in his condom without the female knowing. He then impregnates her through consensual sex, even though she took the necessary precautions in using a condom in the first place. Holes can be invisible to the naked eye, while still being big enough for sperm cells to pass through. Would this scenario be treated like rape, even though it was consensual?

With this being said, I am definitely not pro-abortion. I don't think women should get abortions if it's their own fault they got pregnant in the first place. But with too many unpredictable variables in place, I can't call myself completely anti-abortion either. That's why I think women deserve the right to choice concerning the matter. Nobody actually likes, or wants, to have abortions.
 
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Personally, I believe that sex should not be experienced outside of marriage.
That's perfectly fine to wait until you're legally bound to someone before having sex. My only concern is that you'd consider working to make that restriction apply to everyone else who don't necessary believe in sexual abstention before marriage.

I don't believe that condoms and contraceptives are the way we should deal with these issues.
Why not? Especially if they're effective. What are your apprehensions towards condoms and contraceptives?



@Tristan You're post number 69 :3
 

Alita the Pun

Dmitri
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That's perfectly fine to wait until you're legally bound to someone before having sex. My only concern is that you'd consider working to make that restriction apply to everyone else who don't necessary believe in sexual abstention before marriage.


Why not? Especially if they're effective. What are your apprehensions towards condoms and contraceptives?



@Tristan You're post number 69 :3
what I was saying was, people shouldn't be having sex if they don't understand and are not prepared for the consequences. so increasing the availability and access to these products will only encourage people to have sex casually and from that, comes the increased possibility of an accidental pregnancy. thats why we shouldn't go staring to just producing more easily accessible contraceptives and such because it encourage people to think before engaging in sexual activity. you see what im saying?
 

Deus

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what I was saying was, people shouldn't be having sex if they don't understand and are not prepared for the consequences. so increasing the availability and access to these products will only encourage people to have sex casually and from that, comes the increased possibility of an accidental pregnancy. thats why we shouldn't go staring to just producing more easily accessible contraceptives and such because it encourage people to think before engaging in sexual activity. you see what im saying?
No it wont. Making contraceptives more readily available will reduce the number of pregnancies. Just as in the UK we make it easy to obtain sterile needles for drug injectors and provide them free thus reducing the number of infections from HIV and Hepatitis. People are going do do these things whether there is risk or not we simply need to make it safer for them to do so.
 

Alita the Pun

Dmitri
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No it wont. Making contraceptives more readily available will reduce the number of pregnancies. Just as in the UK we make it easy to obtain sterile needles for drug injectors and provide them free thus reducing the number of infections from HIV and Hepatitis. People are going do do these things whether there is risk or not we simply need to make it safer for them to do so.
That's actually a fair point. I'll give you that. I guess its just more of my personal opinion. in a perfect world, I feel like my view could work better but then again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have this problem. to each his own I guess
 

misskitten

Hello Sweetie!
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I feel like affordable healthcare and welfare is a different issue so I'm just going to ignore that part.
But if you're ignoring that part, you're ignoring what could be a major contributing factor to why some women end up choosing abortion. American healthcare is already very expensive on the consumer, and a portion of the population can't even be approved for health insurance. If someone lives paycheck to paycheck or worse, struggle to find employment, they're not likely to afford the thousands of dollars even an uncomplicated birth costs (by no means am I any expert on your health care system, and I merely did some quick googling to get a gist of what the numbers are). No idea how much it costs with regular check-ups during the pregnancy, though a quick google search suggests a couple of thousand dollars for that as well.

That is of course only for the pregnancy/birth itself. Then comes the maternity leave, of which another quick google search tells me only four states offers any form of paid maternity leave (4-6 weeks from what I can tell), which really isn't much at all (in my country mothers get either 35 weeks with full pay, or 45 weeks with 80% pay). Of course, there might be some companies that are more generous, but again, the point I'm trying to make is how difficult things can be for a low-income people.

Then comes the matter of childcare if the woman even is going to be able to work (which kinda is important if she has to be the sole provider for her child), from what I can find from my quick google search, I just cannot get the math to go up. Not to mention all the other costs of raising a child.
 

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