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General Zelda Late Villains

If there is one thing that rubs me the wrong way its the criticism TP Ganondorf gets for a 'late inclusion'.
In my mind both Demise and Bellum are much worse and deserving of more criticism than TP Ganondorf gets.

But, what are your opinions on 'late inclusions' as far as villains are concerned?
Is there a way to introduce an antagonist near the end of the game correctly and not make it feel jarring?
Should villains be revealed very near the beginning of the game's narrative?

How would you rectify the 'late inclusions' such as Demise and Bellum?
Would you give them more elaborate cutscenes and history?
Would you keep them mysterious until a grand reveal at the end?

two threads in on here really, have fun.
 

Ventus

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(This post is about Modern Zelda, not classic. Classic does /everything/ right thanks to tension in appropriate areas which is complemented by spectacular music)
But, what are your opinions on 'late inclusions' as far as villains are concerned?
My opinions on late inclusions are that they're not worth it unless the villain is a complete badass. That being said, none of Modern Zelda's late villains have been "complete" badasses - whether it's some fluke in their fight or a huge lack of tension regarding their reveal, it's simply not enough to make me feel awed by their presence. Yes, I'm talking about TP Ganondorf, Demise, Bellum, and what have you.

Is there a way to introduce an antagonist near the end of the game correctly and not make it feel jarring?
Like I said, the key is that there needs to be appropriate tension in the appropriate area. If the villain is going to be revealed at the end of the game, we need to feel awed by their presence and they need to DO something that justifies that awe. Yes, I'm saying that seeing some mystical figure before me with some backstory is not enough (Demise). So what if the legends tell of some demon who ripped the world apart? If they can't bring destruction, they're not worth my time. That's storywise. Gameplay wise, they just need to be tough. Zelda is in dire need of one hit KOs and other things. People call it "cheap difficulty" but honestly, this is the final boss. It's a test of all your skills. Do or die, nigge.

Should villains be revealed very near the beginning of the game's narrative?
Because this is Nintendo...no.

How would you rectify the 'late inclusions' such as Demise and Bellum?
Demise: I would have Ghirahim's death be more tragic - maybe make him regret his decisions - and have Demise transport himself to Skyloft and threaten to kill Gaepora or some other resident. This would create a LOT of tension. From there, I'd make SKYLOFT the battleground rather than mystical waterland (i don't care if it LOOKED cool). With the sky province ablaze, it would still be a one on one but this would give both Link and Demise more acrobatic capabilities and also provide a backdrop of Hylians running amuck without a clue in the world...which provides tension.

Bellum: IDK, Don't remember much of him except that his boss fight was COOL. There was SOME tension because it was Linebeck...but that's all really.

Would you give them more elaborate cutscenes and history?
Cutscenes - yes. After sucking up Hylia's soul, for example, I would have Demise cause a Schism on the Surface and deal severe damage to Skyloft.
History - no. Backstory means nothing if the physical entity before you does nothing.

Would you keep them mysterious until a grand reveal at the end?
In the words of Basilio, Hell No.
 

JuicieJ

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If there is one thing that rubs me the wrong way its the criticism TP Ganondorf gets for a 'late inclusion'.
In my mind both Demise and Bellum are much worse and deserving of more criticism than TP Ganondorf gets.

To be fair, it's not really that he was included late. It's that he was introduced halfway into the game, then completely disappeared until the very end. Both Bellum and Demise have a presence the entire time.
 

Unlucky Monkey

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To be fair, it's not really that he was included late. It's that he was introduced halfway into the game, then completely disappeared until the very end. Both Bellum and Demise have a presence the entire time.

That's right. Both villains were present the whole time in some ways. But there is a difference between Bellum and Demise. Demise have a far greater impact on the story. Bellum was, yeah, just the final boss. He was a sea creature. Nothing more to add here. For me, Bellum ist still the worst main villain in a Zelda Game.
 
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JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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That's right. Both villains were present the whole time in some ways. But there is a difference between Bellum and Demise. Demise have a far greater impact on the story. Bellum was, yeah, just the final boss. He was a sea creature. Nothing more to add here. For me, Bellum ist still the worst main villain in a Zelda Game.

Oh, yeah, definitely. I was just giving credit where credit is due.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
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Define being introduced at the end of the game. I mean the 2nd time Ghirahim sees us, he says he's trying to revive his master. He reminds us again the 4th time he sees us just to make sure we didn't forget. Every time we meet Zant face to face, Ganondorf isn't too far behind. First time we see him, he says quite openly he has a God. 2nd time we see him the sages say Ganondorf is that God. 3rd time we see him he reconfirms Ganondorf is that God and in the next cutscene he is talking about how Ganondorf will revive him. How people were surprised by Ganondorf's appearance at the end appalls me.

Also does Malladus count? We don't actually see him until near the end even though he's one of the first things introduced to us.
 

Mellow Ezlo

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I kind of disagree that all of the villains mentioned were just thrown in at all. Ganondorf definitely had buildup. Ever since the cutscene in the Mirror Chamber, the anticipation to see Ganondorf was constantly growing, especially with Zant's continued remarks of his so-called "god" (who else could it be??). Not to mention the fact that the barrier put up around Hyrule Castle was not one of Zant's.

Demise got tons of buildup. We actually fought him three times prior to the actual fight, and we knew somebody had to be controlling Ghirahim (he did continually mention his Master).

Bellum, though he didn't really seem important, he was the one causing all the mysterious rumbling on Mercay Island, which added some anticipation of what exactly it was.

Overall, I don't really think any of the villains are in there without making sense. Each one is expected, each one is built up, and each one is awesome anyway.
 
There's nothing wrong with introducing the primary villain midway through the adventure. The key is to vary it up between villains who make their presence felt from the start and those who hide behind ostensible pawns.

The criticism directed towards Twilight Princess's Ganondorf was at a new approach taken by Nintendo. ALttP's Agahnim as well as Onox and Veran were pawn villains but made clear from the start they were serving some higher entity. This wasn't as obvious with Zant. He exercised a commanding, haunting presence, an aura unlike any antagonist prior. I understand peoples' frustration when Zant was tossed away for the familiar Ganondorf. But the transition was handled wisely. Nintendo introduced Ganondorf through a lengthy cutscene bridging the events of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Aonuma and company cleverly concocted a method, a vessel, through which Ganondorf broke the sealing power of the sages.

Although they weren't physically seen until game's end, Bellum and Malladus were frequently alluded to during the events of the DS games. Although the shift was rough, a similar situation unfolded with Demise in Skyward Sword.




While I appreciate Nintendo's attempts at variation, the traditional single villain structure is my preferred formula. Ocarina of Time's Ganondorf left a very strong impression on me because his threat was omnipresent. He went from a bandit desiring greater power to a wielder of the Triforce with the entire kingdom of Hyrule under his belt. Link's interaction with Ganondorf-through his opening dream, Zelda's escape from Hyrule Castle, his battles with Phantom Ganon and Twinrova, and the final spire duel invoked a sense of cloture. The game highlighted the effects of seven years of tyranny on Link's acquaintances. What I desire from a videogame is a sense of change. Worlds shouldn't remain static. By focusing less on plot twists, greater attention is appropriated towards developing the environment showcasing the complex interactions between the realm's various personas.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
There's nothing wrong with introducing the primary villain midway through the adventure. The key is to vary it up between villains who make their presence felt from the start and those who hide behind ostensible pawns.

The criticism directed towards Twilight Princess's Ganondorf was at a new approach taken by Nintendo. ALttP's Agahnim as well as Onox and Veran were pawn villains but made clear from the start they were serving some higher entity. This wasn't as obvious with Zant.

I...really don't get this. You don't learn until the end of Oracle of Ages/Seasons that Veran/Onox are working for somebody. But Zant? Every time you meet, it's mentioned that he's working for someone else. First time he's working for someone and they gave him powers. 2nd time he says nothing, but 5 minutes later the sages remind you he has a master and explain that it's Ganondorf. Third time you meet him, the second thing he does--after explaining his motives--is remind us, once again, that he works for Ganondorf.
 

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