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PapilioTempesta

Tots Som Pops
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Location
Barcelona
Cool theory! You have some valid points there. I'll be reading with interest whatever answer someone with more knowledge of this game have for you.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Location
NZ
Gender
Shewhale
Nice to see another one of your great theories, we really could use more ya know? *hint hint*

To be honest I have never delved deep into the whole idea of "The King of Red Lions", maybe it was me being naive or slightly overlooking of his name. So without taking in your points -- just so I can give my honest view first -- I would think that "Red Lions" essentially is symbolism for some kind of courage - a sense of pride perhaps? Him being the "King" would mean he is the leader or in another definition of a King; a head figure, so to say. Maybe that's a double meaning, being his only lion-like characteristic is his head (sounds a bit far fetched I know).

Anyway, that would be my initial thoughts before taking yours into account. The King resembling not a King in its primary meaning but the head figure - so the head figure of pride/courage/strength etc. Basically him being the true form of all those characteristics, not a companion as such but someone who could guide and help Link on his journey.



While I don't think Nintendo looked into this as much as you did, I think it's best to go with the state of mind that they did and they actually care about the lore and mythology and all that good stuff we like or hate to like ;p

I was following it quite well at the start, while I was intrigued, I didn't really get where you were going, but the mentioning of the Shiekah made it come together nicely. Their stance is very much defensive, maybe you were going too much into it with the whole shadow thing, but it definitely strengthened your argument and it all fitted together quite nicely - with the red eyes being a bonus reference.

Now with this information I would still lean by saying that the Red Lions could be symbolism for the noble "Knights of Hyrule" (Not to be confused with the Hylian Soldiers). These were very much well and respected knights, maybe enough to warrant that label of courage and pride etc. So with the Hero being in front - you have the Knights being the second in line as they should be. The "Lion" symbolising pride/courage etc. While the red makes reference to the Hylian Crest which is usually of a red colour (the Hylian Shield for example). However, after reading what you said about the coincidence that the King of Red Lions and Princess Zelda were in similar predicaments, it actually makes a lot of sense now.

Maybe this was, like you said, a similar move as to what Princess Zelda did prior to the Great Flood in Ocarina of Time. I don't see no flaws in this theory, it's well-thoughtout and delves into a lot of detail. However, I would lean more towards "Red Lions" being a reference to the Knights of Hyrule - as I mentioned above. A great read nonetheless.
 
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Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
I never questioned or put much thought into the Red Lion part of his name, to be honest...

It might be a title he himself had. Maybe he was also a warrior, leading his troops into battle, and he fought so fiercely that people compared him to a lion? In real world history, there was a Richard the Lionhearted. Same concept. And the red because he wore red...if I were to compare the sheikah to an animal it would be something more like a panther, stealthy, secretive, etc.

But overall great theory.
 

Kirito

I will never be a memory.
Joined
Jun 18, 2013
Location
Midgar
I never gave it much thought but now i see what you mean. Great theory
 
I agree with JC. The lion statue symbolism more likely refers to the Knights of Hyrule, rather than the Sheikah.

The latter is subtly alluded to in the Forsaken Fortress and on the Golden Mask, whereas the Knights of Hyrule are directly mentioned by Orca, the Fisherman, and even the King of Red Lions in reference to Ganon's Tower.

I think the "king" part of the King of Red Lions refers to the king typically being the honorific head of the army. Although experienced generals head the military, the king is dubbed leader in title. Daphnes is likely paying homage to the force that once served him through his alias' name.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
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Location
Redmond, Washington
He's not the "King of the Red Lions", he's the "King of Red Lions". "Red Lions" doesn't necessarily refer to a group like "the Red Lions" might. It's just symbolism that represents him as King. I'd say it's more related to this.
 
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Joined
Feb 23, 2011
He's not the "King of the Red Lions", he's the "King of Red Lions". "Red Lions" doesn't necessarily refer to a group like "the Red Lions" might. It's just symbolism that represents him as King. I'd say it's more related to this.
My train of thought derived from that very thing, and I've always believed that the form of the boat—a red lion—exemplified that point...
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
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NZ
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Shewhale
Locke said:
He's not the "King of the Red Lions", he's the "King of Red Lions". "Red Lions" doesn't necessarily refer to a group like "the Red Lions" might. It's just symbolism that represents him as King. I'd say it's more related to*this.
To be honest though, if a lion was meant to symbolise this sort of power, why would "Lions" be plural? Also why would he be the King of what essentially is a metaphor of what he is?

Looking more into it now, I see it simply as reference to a typical Viking Ship, as they would symbolise an animal or mythical creature as the ships head - example one and example two. It was said that the Vikings would use these to scare of any sea monsters/mythical creatures etc. Since The Wind Waker was like a voyage so to say and about discovery - you can probably draw many comparisons to the Vikings.

Now they didn't use a typical dragon head, but instead a lion (red lion). Now while the symbolism to a "lion" is typically pride courage etc. The symbolism of "Red" could be taken into account as well. Red can mean a whole host of things; however, I would say it's purpose was the fact that it has high visibility and it's association with danger. All this fits into why a Viking might use it to make a boat fitting to ride the oceans with a big presence, which monsters would be afraid of.

So in another frame of mind, I would say his name is a reference to his boat, which is a reference to a typical Viking boat and the symbolism they used as it fits the theme of the game. The only thing that still throws me us the fact that "lion" is used plural in this context.
 

Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
justac00lguy said:
Now they didn't use a typical dragon head, but instead a lion (red lion).
The head looks dragony to me. Lions dont have horns.

TheBlueReptile said:
This also ignores the fact that Daphnes was in disguise whilst above the waves. Keeping a title from the Kingdom of old would only draw attention to him from Ganondorf.
True...unless the gerudos/Ganondorf weren't aware of that title and it was only used by the hylians. Heck, the king in OoT is never seen, and red lions are never mentioned. Daphnes is likely OoT's king. Now this is probably just a case of Nintendo adding stuff as they go along, but if nobody uses "red lions" to describe the king in OoT, that leads me to believe that it was a nickname only used by the royalty and high ranking generals. Why I have no idea...

Also, how many talking boats are there? You'd think Ganondorf would know something's fishy there. Maybe not necessarily "that boat is my old enemy", but...you know. If Daphnes really wanted to hide from Dorfy Dorf, he wouldve became something like...a rito, a fishman, etc. Something theres more than one of.

TheBlueReptile said:
Panthers are certainly a better fit in that regard. However they aren't regarded as pack animals as strongly as Lions, which is a key component with the idea of them defending the Royal Family.
In that case we can probably forget about felines and switch to canines. Coyotes. Not as strong as wolves, but they share the same pack structure.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
I think that "King of Red Lions" is a moniker that refers to the ship only, while Daphnes' Hylian self is...well... just "King Daphnes." The developers (or whatever) simply used that name for the boat because they thought that it sounded cool, and the boat is, after all, a red lion. Though a few of the king's traits might have played a small role in the boat's naming; perhaps some likened the king to a lion based on his appearance, personality, and presence? And the king just ran with it, somehow inspiring himself to come up with the name for the boat...

Anyway... Boats (ships) can be given a variety of names seemingly for no particular reason at all. A few examples that come to mind are the Santa Maria (St. Mary) sailed by Columbus and co., the S.S. Anne from the Pokémon franchise, and the Thousand Sunny, the loyal ship of the Straw Hat pirate crew from the anime One Piece (Thousand Sunny's bow showcases a huge sun-like face)...
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
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NZ
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Shewhale
TheBlueReptile said:
appreciate the research and effort you put into this post, but I'm not seeing much analysis here. I'm still stuck as to how you drew some of your conclusions, particularly the ones bolded.

You could draw a lot of comparisons to the Vikings yes. But I feel this is merely because both feature sea travel. In that sense, you could probably do the same with modern day examples of Malaysian pirates... In the same regard, your reasons behind the colour red seems a bit shaky. I would probably understand your point more if the KoRL was a more aggressive tool in the game. But his interaction with the world begins and ends with aiding Link.

A nice comparison yes. But one that I'm not sure really stands up as a theory in of itself.
This was mainly thinking outside the box, I still stick with it being more of a reference for the Knights of Hyrule.

Basically I was referring to this as more of a "design" choice, not an in game theory, so to say. Since Vikings are widely known about in history and for their epic voyages, I think Nintendo drawn a lot of inspiration for this particular game. This would be more apparent in the choice of design for the KoRL (The actual boat). His name referring to the design of the boat and not within the lore of the series.
 

r2d93

Hero of the Stars
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Location
Lost Woods
While I do agree you're probably going a bit far into this, I VERY much like this theory, you do have some great points. I have no quarrels with this theory other than the fact that the Lion statues referring to the Shiekah tribe is a bit of a jump.

ALSO, a bit of speculating insight- if Red Lions does actually just mean Kings, Daphnes could be the King of Kings for a reason.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure if some of this information actually has been confirmed or not. BUT we don't know:
How long after the HoT left did Hyrule get flooded, and whether or not the King died or just went into hiding when Ganondorf took over. This being said, Daphnes was King when Hyrule was flooded. Now I'm about to take very big leaps because we don't know that much about this info BUUUT it's possible that the flood was maybe within the span of 30ish years. It's possible that the King during this time was the King in OoT coming back to regain his lost throne if he went into hiding. This would mean that Daphnes was actually reigning during OoT which would explain 1. Why Daphnes and Ganny have a bit of a personal confrontation near the end (revenge for the betrayal) and 2. "King of Kings". OoT's King was the King that ended the Hyrulean Civil War by unifying Hyrule making him better than all other Kings and greater than the Kings of the provinces.

Or this passage from Hyrule Historia
"King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule, ordered by the gods to put an end to Ganondorf's ambitions, awoke from his slumber. His spirit took up residence in a small red boat known as the King of Red Lions, and he began searching for the new Hero and the descendent of the royal family."

King of Red Lions is the name of the boat, not Daphnes... but that answer is no fun
 

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