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Spoiler l

Woo, go Reptile, go! Its good for someone to put the record straight as well as you have. I facepalmed when I finished SS and read Demise's words on the cures. I groaned and braced myself for the amount of people that would treat it as new news and zomg news and take it the wrong way, its like the translators purposefully made Demise's statement seemingly double edged to make problems.

I thought since the Wind Waker and even before then that we knew the state of things, that the three to carry the crests of the Triforce would always repeat, maybe not at the same time every time, like Wind Waker when it took a while for a new Link to arise but come on, it was common knowledge and all SS did was vaguely repeat the info we knew, (which is another reason i dislike SS). But well done reptile, there is no curse, its the cyclical energies and it was in place long before Demise met Link, there was no curse the cyclical state of things was already there.

If Demise was going to curse Link he should have said something more blunt like 'I eternally bind you to my curse' i.e put some ownership on it. not say what he said when he said 'they are eternally bound to this curse'. In the context used in Demise's final words the word 'this' is not implied as his. I can't see how people can get so confused on this when it was already common knowledge in most recent Zelda titles.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
I agree with your conclusion on what the curse is, just not on what Demise is. Just one thing first though:

Here we have Ganondorf doing his thing and attempting to destroy Hyrule. But hold on a second, what did he just say? "Let us put an end to that which binds us together!". This is it right?. The curse speaks of the binding of the goddess and the hero to evil and here Ganondorf is admitting there is something binding them otgether, I guess I was wrong. Hold up though, let's take a look at what he does next.

Nope, turns out he was actually making his triforce wish.
I don't understand your argument here. Looking solely at WW, "that which binds us together" is merely the fact that each possesses one piece of the Triforce. Ganondorf then takes Link's so they are no longer bound to each other. Taking SS into consideration, this binding extends to Link's spirit and Ganondorf's hatred. What exactly are you trying to disprove by pointing out that he subsequently announces his wish?

Anyway, I look at Ganondorf's removed quote at the end of TP* and Demise's quote at the end of SS and conclude that there is a 'force of nature'-type 'curse' that exists between the bearers of the Triforce crests, which spans the entire existence of the Triforce - not initiated by Demise at that moment. We can agree there, and I think it is unreasonable to think otherwise given the evidence.

But there are two additional quotes we mustn't forget:
Aonuma said:
This game talks about the birth of the Master Sword, and it touches on why Ganondorf showed up. If you play it, I think you’ll get some understanding on that. It connects to Ocarina, so if you play Ocarina of Time 3D and move on to this game, I think you’ll catch on to a lot of things.
This supports the point that we agree on if Aonuma is referring to this natural force of balance. Ganondorf showed up in OoT because Link and Zelda showed up (though causality is supratemporal in this case - yes I just made that word up).

But how can we be sure he doesn't specifically have Demise in mind? This brings up the second quote:
Fi said:
This eternal being has conquered time
itself. It is the source of all monsters.


According to tales passed down through
generations, it appears differently in
each epoch and to each person who
lays eyes on it.
This proves that Demise is not just another villain caught up the Triforce-induced power-struggle (read: balance), but is indeed the essence of his side of the conflict, repeating itself through the generations. This quote holds a lot more weight than Demise's threat, which I agree is rather empty. I've been referred to examples of this concept in both Japanese and Middle-Earth (Lord of the Rings) mythology. An entity which is the cause of all evil. "Demise's Hatred" is simply hatred in general, not specifically toward the goddesses. Ganondorf has plenty of hatred, here suggested to be flamed by Demise himself. Demise is hatred.


I thought since the Wind Waker and even before then that we knew the state of things, that the three to carry the crests of the Triforce would always repeat
Yes, I believe this was actually established as far back as LttP, or maybe OoT. Demise's quote is nothing new.

*I like to believe, despite how unlikely it is, that Ganondorf's quote in TP was removed because they decided to introduce it in SS, the earlier game with the more basal villain. Look how similar they are!
 
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Garo

Boy Wonder
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Behind you
I find it intriguing that the idea of Evil/Hatred isn't tied to the way that the Triforce seems to reincarnate its chosen bearers. I'd be very interested in a game that mixes up traditional Triforce roles; perhaps the Triforce of Power isn't necessarily the villain, for instance.

More on topic: I definitely think that Ganondorf is an incarnation of evil and that Demise's curse is less an actual curse and more a "this is the way the world works" type of thing; evil will always show up, regardless of anything Demise did.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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I would just like to point out that Demise was also after the Triforce. Coincidence? I think not. It's also not very logical to use an event from The Wind Waker, as there's no way Nintendo had Demise planned at that time.

Beyond that, Aonuma directly said that "why Ganondorf showed up will be touched on". There's absolutely no other hint towards Ganondorf than Demise's words. I've never thought Demise actually laid a curse on Link, but what Demise said unmistakably means that his hatred dwells within Ganondorf. It's not some groundless theory. It's hardcore fact.
 

HyruleLove

Twilight Princess
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Puerto Rico
I read it 0_o ...and I usually never get into Zelda theories, but this one looks legit. It makes perfect sense in my brain. Now im not the kind to analyze a game, but I think its cool that there are those who do, and its pretty cool to see what people take notice in.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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The argument is that it isn't the curse binding them together, it is the Triforce.

I don't see how you could come to this conclusion. Nowhere is it implied that the Triforce is binding Demise and Ganondorf together. Nowhere. What Demise said, though, does.

I knew these quotes would rear their ugly heads eventually. And I have a few issues with them. Firstly I don't agree that the "Ganondorf's origins" part of the quote can be used as a point against my theory (although you didn't directly do so yourself, but no doubt others will). This is simply due to the fact that my interpretation of Demise words still does touch on Ganondorf's origins. i.e, it was his fate all along to become a "chosen one" of the Triforce.

A direct quote from a developer is not something to be overlooked and is perfectly legitimate evidence to support an argument. After all, a developer is, well, a person who helped develop the game, and if that developer is Aonuma, you'd better take it into consideration. Otherwise you're going against direct confirmation.

Secondly, Fi's quote. I'll get to the conquering time business in a second, for now I want to concentrate on the latter section of her quote. Not only could she not have a clue of Demise future as she wasn't a being of time herself, she also quite clearly says "According to tales passed down through generations". Not only is this a very weak basis to found anything on, she also directly states this herself at the beginning of the game. Saying that oral tradition "is one of the least reliable methods of information retention and transmission".

Fi can basically scan things and learn everything about them. How else do you think she knew everything about every last enemy? She was able to learn what Demise was and what he was capable of. And just how does oral tradition come into play? Fi was talking about word of mouth passed down through generations, not what was directly said for the first time. Surely you know that the Greek legends came to be as they're known due to this. They didn't become that way overnight.

As for the conquering time, I had taken this as a hint toward who the identity of the Goddess of Time was, namely Hylia. In this sense he had not defeated time in a literal sense, but rather the goddess who represented it. However this is merely throwing more theories into the mix so I shall leave this argument as nothing more than passing thought until I can confirm who or what the Goddess of Time is. The second half of that first section also means nothing to me in regards to Demise apparent effect on the Zelda universe's future. Simply because, again, Fi can't see into the future. Demise is the source of all monsters for the present and to say he is so for the future as well is merely assumption.

Wait, you think Hylia is the Goddess of Time? Why? That's not even hinted at. Demise literally conquered time. Just look at one of his quotes. "I've waited eons to return. I can spare a few moments to let you decide." Wait a minute, eons? How is that possible? He was pretty much literally just sealed. The only explanation to this is that he exists outside of time and is aware of what is going on at all times. Him returning after being defeated in the future is how he conquered time. He's endless. Even if he dies, a part of him lingers, i.e. his hatred (which, as Locke said, is hatred in general, not hatred for the gods).

I thought I had already stated that it was the Triforce that was binding evil with good? In which case this point only serves to strengthen my argument XD

No it doesn't. The reason Ganondorf is after the Triforce is because he has Demise's hatred manifested inside of him, not because the Triforce fates him to.

How so? When constructing a theory you have to take all the information into account, otherwise it's a theory based on limited and potentially biased information. Whether they had Demise planned back then or not WW still happens in the same universe and as such cannot be ignored in regards to this.

Have you ever heard of a retcon? Because half of the timeline is based off of them.

To add to that, you must take into account that Ganondorf waited hundreds and hundreds of years for that moment of (attempting to) touch the Triforce. That much time is going to let one develop patience, no matter how evil that person is. Even Demise developed it. "I can spare a few moment to let you decide." Ganondorf was much cooler, much calmer in WW because of how much time he waited. He was still cold and ruthless, but he was more controlled. I don't see how you could possibly ignore this.
 
Joined
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Location
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A lot of your evidence is from the game wind waker. And in the game it states that Link has no relation to the Hero. Link doesn't even have the power of the triforce, he has to find it. When King of red lions is talking to Jabun it just comes out.
 
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I believe that Ganondorf is the reincarnation of Demise (or Demise's hatred, whichever one you want) but that they have different motivations for seeking the Triforce.
Demise is a Demon King, he most likely lived his life in luxury with his might. The only people surpassing his might and power? The Godesses. Hence his hatred of them.
Ganondorf, his reincarnation, while still a King, lived in a desert with very harsh conditions. This radically alters their motivations. One wants power just to rule the world, and the other wants power because of a long-enduring jealousy for Hyrule's "wind".
But take a look at Ganondorf's actions once he IS in power. You can't say he serves the Godesses, in fact, he completely disregards them and if he could, he'd do what Demise, his former self, planned. Motivations plays a key role in this case.
 
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Night Owl

~Momentai
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I don't see how your theory abolishes the meaning of Demise's curse.

His curse simply states that as long as the bloodline of Hylia continues, presumably through the royal family; and the Spirit of the Hero, not necessarily blood just the character attributes associated with the hero; then a reincarnation of his hatred will be there to plague them.

His curse is basically the commonly used story telling device which gives heroes an evil to defeat and someone to rescue.


Every Zelda game has a reincarnation of Demise's hatred in some form which isn't always a version of Ganon/dorf, Princess Zelda (who carries the blood of the goddess), and lad with the spirit of the hero.
The only games that seem to be missing a piece of the curse are:

Zelda2, unless all monsters are pieces of his hatred.

Link's Awakening, unless because it is a dream sequence Marin either counts as a member of the goddess
bloodline or the Nightmares are unrelated to Demise

OoX, Unless Din and Nayru are descended from the goddess in a method other than the royal family. Of
course a linked game solves that dilemma.
 

PokaLink

Pokalink the avaricious
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Location
Outset Island
.....So true, this makes so much sense, it clears up alout of my confusion, i was wondering why ganondorf was seeking the land of Hyrule and not to destroy the gods, now it makes sense, but what i wonder is what you think about other evil, you explain that the pivotal force of the evil reincarnations of Demise, or possibly evil in general comes from the Triforce, well what about Malladus and Chancelor Cole, they are both demonic evil beings, but they are not for the capture of the Triforce, instead to cause havoc and possibly destroy New Hryule, they both hold the grudge Ganon has and i feel to be reincarnations of evil from Demise, same goes for Vaati he has the evil wish to control and destroy, at first it seemed like you were saying its the reincarnations of evil in general, but evuntuly you base it of what ganon says about the Triforce being the pivotal force of Link and there struggle.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
The idea of Hyrule suffering at the hands of many different evils is something I thought about exploring yet overall it's a shaky piece of evidence. Mainly because it's difficult to determine just how literal Demise was being when saying "an incarnation". Was he meaning one literal incarnation or many incarnations that existed at different times? His use of the words "will follow" indicates the former.

He does say "an incarnation", so that heavily suggests that it's just Ganondorf. You never know, though. Some other form could manifest itself on the AT after Spirit Tracks, especially since he appears in different forms in each epoch. We'll just have to wait and see.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
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Location
Redmond, Washington
I don't think "an incarnation" limits himself to just one. It's clear that he means what Ganondorf said at the end of TP - whenever a Link and Zelda appear, "an incarnation" will also appear. I thought we'd already established that he didn't create the curse right then and there, so he wouldn't know about how it affects the future. It's also established that he's appeared several times before, and he even says "It is born anew in a cycle with no end!"
 

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