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"Iwata Isn't Nintendo's Problem. It's Miyamoto."

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
The weekend is usually a slow time on Eurogamer and they tend to post opinion pieces. Usually these are pretty dull but today's was quite interesting and I'd like to share it with you. This article discusses Shigeru Miyamoto's role at Nintendo and how it could actually be a hinderence to the company in general.

You should go read it if you have a few minutes. Go on, I'll wait.

...

You read it? Grand! Let's continue.

In a nutshell, do you agree with the article's view? Is Miyamoto holding the company back, or are Nintendo's current problems the result of something else entirely? Is the Shigkrieg past his prime or is he the only thing keeping Nintendo in the game at all?

Keep it strong, Zelda Dungeon.
 

HeroofScotland

The Anti-Social Kid
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Scotland
Nintendo's commercial failures have nothing to do with Miyamoto, while he may be getting a little "rusty" recently, it's the lack of 3rd party support that's hurting Nintendo. And my guess is that it has something to do with the Wii U's hardware and that (as far as I'm aware) has nothing to do with Miyamoto.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
I can see how Miyamoto might be to blame...because ultimately, the issue with the Wii U is the software. It's not because we haven't seen it advertised enough. I've seen more Wii U ads than PS4 and XBone ads combined. The issue is that nobody is interested. Non-gamers aren't interested in gaming. They bought the Wii because of "fitness". The triple A titles sales stayed the same (for the most part).

The Wii U has gone back to the software model that failed them in the 5th and 6th gen. They finally had the non-gamers in generation 7...and then they just let them go. Why?

Well maybe it was Iwata, but I don't think he's the one that decides what direction the game consoles go in. If anything, Miyamoto probably has more control on that. Afterall, Nintendo said the reason they don't go completely software is because they want to make their games on THEIR unique systems. This is why Nintendo is always different from their competitor. And this is why they moved on from the Wii...they wanted to change things AGAIN and not only are they once again a different system that is uninviting to third parties, but they also left behind the non-gamers who gave them so much profit. The only reason to leave the Wii design behind completely is because game developers like Miyamoto wanted to change things up a bit and try a new way of making games.

Maybe it is more fun and interesting for them to make games this way, but it's horrible for business. Nintendo either needs to go back and try focusing on motion gaming again or they need to make a console system that's similar to their competitors so they can get the third parties.

I don't know who called the shots when making the Wii U, but Miyamoto definitely has more reason have a system like this. From a business point of view, there was no reason to ditch motion gaming, so I doubt Iwata is behind this.

Nintendo's commercial failures have nothing to do with Miyamoto, while he may be getting a little "rusty" recently, it's the lack of 3rd party support that's hurting Nintendo. And my guess is that it has something to do with the Wii U's hardware and that (as far as I'm aware) has nothing to do with Miyamoto.

Well Miyamoto wants a unique console to make games on, so actually I think he is largely behind the direction the Wii U took.
 

HeroofScotland

The Anti-Social Kid
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Scotland
Well Miyamoto wants a unique console to make games on, so actually I think he is largely behind the direction the Wii U took.
An unique console doesn't need to be un-appealing in terms of hardware. The Wii is a good example of such, the only reason it didn't get more 3rd party support was it's lack of HD.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
An unique console doesn't need to be un-appealing in terms of hardware. The Wii is a good example of such, the only reason it didn't get more 3rd party support was it's lack of HD.

Unappealing in terms of hardware? Are we speaking specifically of power? If so, the Wii was FAR more underpowered for its generation than the Wii U is.
 

HeroofScotland

The Anti-Social Kid
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Location
Scotland
Unappealing in terms of hardware? Are we speaking specifically of power? If so, the Wii was FAR more underpowered for its generation than the Wii U is.
Not really, the Wii was at least more powerful than the PS2 and the Xbox, the Wii U is pretty much on the same level as the PS3 and 360.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
This article suffers from a number of logical fallacies -- so many that it was actually painful to read at times. Curiously enough, though, they all seem to intertwine with each other. Allow me to explain.

Basically, the writer is treating Miyamoto as if he's much larger in the core game development process than he actually is (problem #1). Miyamoto actually rarely directly takes part of this anymore. As such, it's borderline impossible for him to be frequently pumping out new IPs -- and not just new IPs, but "ZOMG, SUPER DUPER SMASH HIT NEW IPs!", which I'll get into in a bit. He essentially blames the Wii U getting lots of sequels on Miyamoto when that's absolutely not his fault (problem #2), and also doesn't take into account that the fans WANT these sequels (problem #3).

This then leads into him completely ignoring how easy it was to create a plethora of HUGE new bombshells (there it is!) back in the 80's and how easy it was for them to sell, since gaming was still in a fledgling state and, after the industry crash, Nintendo was pretty much the only option to go to for gaming in the living room (problem #4). He then goes on to basically say that Miyamoto is failing to prime younger developers for the company's future by making Super Mario games... you know, the most perfect and ideal series a Japanese developer -- arguably ANY developer -- could hope to be primed with? This is somehow a problem in Miyamoto's plan? That's quite an amazing assessment. Not because it's such a crazy thought that it actually might be true, but because it's so crazy it falls off the crazy spectrum and into the realm of TehLeetHaxor (problem #5).



Now, when you look past allllll that nonsense about this being Miyamoto's fault and just look at Nintendo in general... the writer as a point. The Wii U has failed to have a brand-new KILLER app that rocks the world like no other game has before, and it's shown in the system's sales. The 3DS has failed this, as well, though I think that's basically irrelevant at this point, considering that it's selling like a mother****er -- HILARIOUSLY contrary to what the writer of this article said about it, hang on, hang on, let me quote it for you... "3DS is underperforming" LOL!!! -- managing to maintain its title of the best-selling gaming device throughout all of 2013 (even during the last two months where the PS4 was blowin' up the charts right alongside it).

Still, the Big N DOES need to pump out that next killer app, and soon. I'm assuming that it's going to be Miyamoto's top-secret new IP in the works, and if it is, well then all is right in the world. If not... well, then Miyamoto will have failed to make the splash he and crew had hoped for, but Nintendo's current situation still wouldn't be on his hands.
 
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Joined
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Move to the next gen. The Wii U is 350 GFLOP/S, the PS4 is 1840 GFLOP/S, and the Bone is 1300 GFLOP/S.

Back to the main topic, no, it's not Miyamoto's fault. It's the fault of Iwata for making stupid decisions about things like marketing and company direction. The Wii U having inferior, although not terrible, hardware also has something to do with it.

Seems like a pretty valid point. If don't open up to multi-platform developers, and don't give them any 'real estate' to work with, you're going to run into all kinds of problems.
 

HeroofScotland

The Anti-Social Kid
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See, the Wii U is not *that* underpowered compared to the Wii.
But the Wii only had a difference of 300 GFLOP/S when compared to the PS3 and 360, while the Wii U reaches 1000 GFLOP/S of difference when compared to the PS4 and the One, so yeah, it IS that underpowered when compred to the Wii (of course I could be wrong since I'm pretty oblivious to this kind of stuff).
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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I've been saying this for a while, Miyamoto needs to go. I love his work with the company and from solely a gamer's point of view I'd want him to stay. But his judgement is outdated in an industry that is no longer entirely about experiences.

Something should have been put in place to counter this well before the last generation. And by that I mean new blood needed to be brought into the directorial chairs whilst Miyamoto still remained at the helm. This would allow his experience to keep the company afloat whilst the newbies learned the ropes in preparation for their eventual take over. We needed younger men and women who enjoy the games of today to soak in some of that dedication that Miyamoto has undeniably demonstrated. This would have given us a company with all the love of the craft that was well prepared to cater to the gamers of today, rather than of the N64 era.

Nintendo as a content creator is doing fine for the people who enjoy their games. Nintendo as a business is not. And the simple reason why is because whilst the industry has evolved and broadened Nintendo have had the same main figures calling the shots, most of which are almost entirely out-of-touch with this generation of gamers.

I'm not convinced you read the article. Its entire message was about content -- specifically about how we haven't had any smash hit new IPs lately (and how it's alllll Miyamoto's fault).
 

Cfrock

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In general, I agree with parts of the article, though perhaps for slightly different reasons. I wouldn't say Miyamoto is holding back the newer talent at Nintendo because, even though EAD Tokyo have been working on lots of Super Mario, they created the Galaxy games, as well as 3D Land and 3D World, or, to put that another way, the best Super Mario games ever made. While I understand the article's point about these games being overshadowed somewhat by the legacy of the series itself, I can't agree with the implication that it has been something of a waste of their obvious skills.

To be honest, my main gripe with Miyamoto that made me think it was time for him to step back and retire, or at least take on an almost entirely PR role, were comments he recently made regarding Starfox and F-Zero. Of Starfox, he said that the series would likely not continue since sales across the franchise were poor. I can understand that but his attitude is very defeatist. Starfox's sales only really began to slump once Nintendo started outsourcing it to the likes of Rare, Namco, and Q Games. At the very least I'd have expected him to want to give making his own Starfox another shot before writing off one of the company's most recognisable assests. Of F-Zero, he said that another game was unlikely simply because he had no new ideas for it. The entire franchise has hit a screeching dead end because he, personally, dosn't know what to do with it. All I can think is why doesn't he let the younger talent at Nintendo have a go? Just because he has no ideas doesn't mean nobody else does.

It's that sort of attitude, that he is the ultimate decider on IPs he created, that I feel has been the cause of several disappointments in recent years. Besides the indefinite stagnation of Starfox and F-Zero, Miyamoto is also responsible for the use of the Motion Plus in Skyward Sword. Aonuma has said in the past that he didn't want to use it but had to when Miyamoto insisted. I've said numerous times that Skyward Sword's short comings all stem from the over-reliance on the Wiimote, and I have Miyamoto to blame for that. Then there's the fact that the more recent IPs he's created haven't really been any good. Wii Sports was a huge hit, sure, but it was a party game that was played maybe three or four times a year, usually on special occassions. Wii Fit was only really popular with older women and people who believed that a light jog on the spot would make them skinny. Wii Music was a disaster. The last thing he created with lasting appeal was Pikmin. Over the last five or six years, he hasn't really been displaying much genuinely impressive creativity when it comes to creating new IPs (which is partially why I remain cautiously optimistic about this new one he's cooking up) and so I do feel as though it is time that he stepped back and let fresh talent take over his creations.

I don't agree with the assertion that Miyamoto is the source of Nintendo's current problems. I don't think it's fair to blame Iwata, either. Some people seem quick to forget that Iwata grew Nintendo into a company larger than it had ever been before, following the success of the Wii and DS, and the software output from Nintendo and its second-parties has been outstanding since the GameCube. Under his leadership, Nintendo products expanded video game's general audience and helped make gaming a more mainstream activity. He is good at his job. The problems the Wii U is facing are similar to those faced by the 3DS, and those problems were solved by pumping out quality games and advertising the crap out of it. While I'm still waiting on seeing some actual Wii U advertising (in the UK, there is basically nothing) the platform does now have a strong line-up of exclusives--3D World, The Wind Waker, Wonderful 101, Pikmin 3, ZombiU--with many more to come, including Donkey Kong, Hyrule Warriors, Mario Kart 8, Bayonetta 2, and Smash Bros. A big marketing push, maybe some generous bundle deals when Mario Kart is released, and I would also say a price drop could work wonders for the Wii U's sales and see it make the turn the 3DS did.

Nintendo's current problems, if you ask me, are the result of the company still being in the mind-set they fell into during the Wii years. While the games they produced in that time were mostly fantastic, there weren't very many of them, and there was little to no third-party support outside of shovelware. Nintendo didn't need to worry about building relationships with other developers, or having a new game every month, because they had so much money that their lives were carefree and without troubles. Now they have to work at being successful again. They've done a great job so far with the 3DS and if they can pull off similar with the Wii U then Nintendo will dig itself out of its current hole. I believe Iwata can get that done, and I believe Miyamoto can help him do that, albeit by letting go of some of his creations to enable them to flourish.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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It's that sort of attitude, that he is the ultimate decider on IPs he created, that I feel has been the cause of several disappointments in recent years. Besides the indefinite stagnation of Starfox and F-Zero, Miyamoto is also responsible for the use of the Motion Plus in Skyward Sword. Aonuma has said in the past that he didn't want to use it but had to when Miyamoto insisted. I've said numerous times that Skyward Sword's short comings all stem from the over-reliance on the Wiimote, and I have Miyamoto to blame for that.

Considering how I've gone over countless times the concept that motion controls are a hindrance is flawed and ironic (beyond just responding to you), I'll just skip that bit and get straight to the part where I say the notion that Miyamoto wanting the Wii MotionPlus in the Zelda series was a bad idea is a silly one. ...Oh, I actually just said it right there. Moving on, then.

While it's true that Miyamoto DID tell Aonuma he wanted what eventually became Skyward Sword to utilize the Wii MotionPlus, that's not the whole story. To use your terminology, this is a recurring problem with arguments you construct that all stem back to one thing: you either ignoring or leaving out factual bits of information that are crucial to the big picture. In this case, it's two bits of info. Aonuma has gone on record that he was uncertain of utilizing the WM+ was the best way to go about making the next console Zelda game after Twilight Princess, but after he saw what could be done with it in Wii Sports Resort, he knew right then and there that it was. He also said shortly after the release of Skyward Sword that he "[couldn't] imagine going back" in the future.

Miyamoto is not the one-and-only reason SS used the WM+. He played a part in it, but Aonuma actually made the decision himself in the end.

Why do I bring this up? Because it's not a valid reason to say that Miyamoto needs to step down. That's all.
 

Ventus

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I'll propose a question. Do any of you on this wonderful site understand how much influence Miyamoto has and how involved he is in Nintendo's game creating process? Do the folks at Eurogamer understand his position? He is simply the GM of CDG, and a producer of some odd games. Yes, the younger talent consults the legend for advise and for many titles he ultimately gets the final say alongside Aonuma, but he is NOT Nintendo's cornerstone. He isn't the one who leads Nintendo as a company. That is mostly Iwata.

To say "Nintendo is failing so kick Miyamoto out" like the article suggests is foolhardy.
 

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