Item-Based Dungeons: A Tired Concept?

[JuicieJ]

If you didn't realize by some bizarre force, pretty much every modern Zelda dungeon has heavily revolved their puzzles around the item found within them. There are a couple exceptions, but I'm willing to say about 99% of the dungeons ever since The Wind Waker have used their items to the extreme. But why? What exact purpose is there for this? I get that Nintendo wants to show off the capabilities of their games' items, but they don't have to make them so central to the puzzle-solving to do so. They can just play minor roles in the puzzle-solving and have more beneficial purposes in the general gameplay to pull off the effect.

There's nothing wrong with some of the dungeons doing this, of course -- that adds variety -- but why does it have to be almost all of them? I really think it's time Nintendo brings this concept down to a minimum. It's cool when used in moderation, but with how it's been used in the modern games, it's really overbearing. At least in my opinion.

But what do you think? Let me know in the comments. Discuss!

 

[Wolf Sage]

I don't have much to add, but I agree with you. I think it'd be neat if the series added more items like the Beetle, which could be used in a variety of situations in a variety of dungeons. In other words, the item itself was not very dungeon-specific, fortunately. The reason why I bring this up is because I believe that Nintendo should look into revamping the way items are acquired as well as utilized if they [hypothetically] plan on "fixing the problem" with the excessive amount of item-based dungeons...

 

[Cfrock]

I don't think I would mind so much if the dungeons didn't rely so heavily on one specific item. There are even dungeons which could accomodate other items but just don't, like Twilight Princess's Temple of Time. Sure, we used the Dominion Rod a lot but could we not have bashed some gates down with the Ball & Chain and left stronger gates for the statues? Could we not have used the spinner to operate ancient clockwork machinery (or even that big circular lift)? Used the Gale Boomerang to lift objects over those gates? Alright, maybe these aren't spectacular ideas but I think it shows that, with some thought, multiple items can be utilised in Zelda dungeons still, the way they used to be.

Actually, why was the Ball & Chain not effective against Armos? Seems like the kind of thing that would do a serious number to something like that. Unless it did and I just never thought to use it... But I digress.

In general, I'm not entirely opposed to seeing dungeons revolve around one item, because it does help show what said item can do, but it is starting to get a bit much with how many do that these days. There's always room to throw in some of the other items, no need for any of them to be left out. Building dungeons around the fact you will have multiple items would help increase the complexity and amount of actual thinking (Heaven forbid) we do in dungeons.

It's always nice when a dungeon teaches us one use of an item and then leaves us to figure out other uses too based on the basic training we received when we first got it. An example would be how we were shown that the Gale Boomerang can cause fans to spin, letting us see its wind-based power. Later on, we use it to put torches out and we figure that bit out by ourselves because we were taught that it affects wind. My point here is that figuring out alternative uses for items we already have can, in some ways, be more rewarding than being trained in the use of a new item. This is why I would hope that Nintendo do start making us use multiple items to get through most dungeons again, because being made to use an old item in a dungeon not explicitly designed for it is fun and makes us think a bit more.

Apologies for rambling on a bit there...

 

[Xinnamin]

They probably gravitated towards item-based dungeons because it made it easier on the player, as well as instant gratification for showing it off. "Oh yeah new item! Oh no I'm trapped in this room! Wait, this item can get me out! YEAH! I can't wait to do more with this awesome new item!" It's part of the reason the games are getting so easy, which also fits into Nintendo's whole family-friendly mindset. Hell recently some games have been even more formulaic than that. Get item before dungeon, use item to enter dungeon, get dungeon item, use dungeon item to finish dungeon, get new item before next dungeon, repeat. And then half these items never see use again, and most are entirely puzzle items with no battle use at all. So not only do we have items that can only solve specific puzzles (which are now no longer really puzzles because you already know what item to use), but it adds nothing to the fighting portions of the game either. Nintendo really should tone down not just the item-dungeon mechanics, but also just the number of items in general.

 

[JuicieJ]

I don't think I would mind so much if the dungeons didn't rely so heavily on one specific item.

Like Stone Tower and the Fire Sanctuary.

 

[DarkestLink]

This has been going on since Ocarina of Time...since 3D came out. And honestly, I find these dungeons to be much higher quality than their repetitive 2D predecessors. So I see no reason to stop. The only thing I want to see more of is using items in unique ways to certain dungeon environments in in conjunction with other items. Still, every item needs a time to shine. So why not its own dungeon?

 

[Blu Ray]

I'd say whats lacking is the use of those items on a more creative manner. It's pretty obvious when to use an specific item and when we get an item at a dungeon, we use pretty much that one only, I mean, how hard It is to make a challenging puzzle filled dungeon that requires you to use 3~4 different items while actually using your brain to actually think about the ones you need? I loved how hard Sky Keep was, but It is disappointing at how the challenging puzzles never require the use of items.

 

[Castle]

Zelda dungeons have become too formulaic. Defeat the miniboss to get the item, then that item will immediately be used to escape the locked room. That item and that item only will be used henceforth throughout the dungeon, with the exception of certain "all purpose" items such as the bow, hookshot, or SS's beetle which are used in greater capacity throughout each adventure. Often, however, the same tricks are employed with those same items from game to game. Items acquired in previous dungeons will maybe be used once, but likely not at all, so you'll only ever have to take the current dungeons item into account when figuring out puzzles.

Would be nice to put other dungeon items to more extensive effect in each subsequent dungeon, but that doesn't happen. Dungeon's should still rely on the use of Link's gadgets to surpass challenges, though.

 

[Egregious]

I think that two things are important to consider when designing dungeons and items.

The key to good item design is that an item must have a variety of uses. An example of a well-designed item from Ocarina of Time would be the hookshot - you can pull things toward you, pull yourself toward things, stun monsters, and activate switches. An example of a poorly-designed item from the same game would be the Silver Gauntlets. You use them to move what... four blocks in the entire game? Even though you can lift gray boulders outside, only one of these is relevant to a side quest.

The key to good dungeon design is to incorporate a cumulative understanding of your items. Even when you are getting items at the end of the game, you should still have to recognize situations in which older items are necessary, or in which old items have to be used in a new way. You should always be forced to think about what resources you have available to solve a puzzle and think about what your items really can do. Relying too much on one item tells the player - "Well, you know you have to use the [insert dungeon item] somehow," and that cheapens the "aha!" moment when you solve a puzzle.

You can't really have one without the other. For example, the Spinner is a horrible item because it is blatantly obvious when it must be used - if there is a Spinner track, you use the Spinner. Even if more areas in Twilight Princess had spinner tracks and spinner switches, it wouldn't add much to the game because you already know how to use it. It isn't fun to have to use old items in new places if the use is exactly the same. Likewise, if you have one really amazing, multi-functional item for each dungeon but that item has no use anywhere else, what good is it?

The problem is that it puts a great burden on the game designers for creativity. It's an ideal that they should strive for, but it's always easier to just rehash than come up with fresh ideas.

 

[A Link In Time]

While Zelda has seen exceptional recent advancements, it is a series primarily founded on conservative development facets. The "classics" (LoZ-OoX) were less rigid in structure with great item balance and gameplay but lacking in other integral aspects of the videogame experience. As Nintendo shifted towards a greater emphasis on narrative, aesthetic, and most recently control output, gameplay took a backseat. Having realized the folly of their decision, Miyamoto, Aonuma, and company have endeavored to reverse this trend.

One of my favorite aspects of games like Ocarina of Time is the freedom to largely do whatever you desire with a plethora of optional items scattered throughout. Obtaining the Ice Arrows, for example, requires braving the Gerudo Training Grounds but is never a requisite for completion.

The problem with the Dominion Rod, Ball & Chain, and Spinner from Twilight Princess as well as Spirit Tracks' Sand Wand is excessive use of said items in dungeon they are located in and sparse parts therefore where they are needed to progress. The key is to balance item creativity with usefulness which Skyward Sword handled well. The Beetle was used throughout the course of the entire adventure initially to hit switches with function later expanding to latching on to objects like bombs from afar. Other arsenal like the Slingshot which typically were rendered useless from exponentially better weapons-the Bow and Arrow in this case-benefited from better item spacing compelling players to use previously sparsely touched armory.

 

[Blu Ray]

A Link In Time, I'd say that the main issue is item uses being too obvious. Bow targets are very easy to spot, so are the hookshot. It's very easy to know when to use items, that takes away any value It has of being on a decent puzzle. As an result to that, the hardest puzzles we get don't use items at all, such as Sky Keep.

 

[JuicieJ]

A Link In Time, I'd say that the main issue is item uses being too obvious. Bow targets are very easy to spot, so are the hookshot. It's very easy to know when to use items, that takes away any value It has of being on a decent puzzle. As an result to that, the hardest puzzles we get don't use items at all, such as Sky Keep.

In terms of the Bow, that's actually something that Skyward Sword improved on. With one exception, all the targets were either well-hidden or had some kind of obstacle in the way that needed to be removed somehow. In terms of the Hookshot -- or I guess it'd be the Clawshot in this instance -- that's actually something that Twilight Princess improved on, surprisingly enough. You really had to look around for latch-on spots sometimes. I'm not saying they were extremely hard to spot, I'm just saying they weren't always in plain sight.

 

[Blu Ray]

I get It, but I think getting the targets being well hidden isn't enough, there should be a bigger diversity on the things the items can do, I think I've never seen you use clawshot, hookshot or w/e get used to pick items from far, I believe you can do that, but It's never really required as an important part of a dungeon, thats just wasted potential. If bow and arrow is to be treated as an upgraded version of slingshot, you might aswell not have slingshot at all, I think there is nothing stopping It from having different kind of ammo for example, maybe explosive ammo allowing you to blow small things from far. I haven't put much thought into this, but with a bit more effort items could be way more entertaining.

 

[JuicieJ]

I get It, but I think getting the targets being well hidden isn't enough, there should be a bigger diversity on the things the items can do, I think I've never seen you use clawshot, hookshot or w/e get used to pick items from far, I believe you can do that, but It's never really required as an important part of a dungeon, thats just wasted potential. If bow and arrow is to be treated as an upgraded version of slingshot, you might aswell not have slingshot at all, I think there is nothing stopping It from having different kind of ammo for example, maybe explosive ammo allowing you to blow small things from far. I haven't put much thought into this, but with a bit more effort items could be way more entertaining.

I did say "improved on". Not "perfected".

 

[Blu Ray]

I wasn't really trying to say you were wrong, just voicing my opinion on the subject.