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General Modern Is Zelda No Longer a Hardcore Game?

Joined
May 27, 2012
A lot of people complain that Zelda games are getting way too easy, even some of the Wind Waker fans agree that the dungeons in that game were too easy. Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are also known for being too easy. Then there's Skyward Sword, the ultimate hand holder, in fact, they said themselves that they want Zelda to be easier. I get that they're trying to reach out to the casual gamers, but that just begs the question of whether or not they should be doing that in the first place. Casual gamers don't even want to play Zelda, so why bother trying? Casual gamers simply don't like Zelda games, they're perfectly happy playing Mario and Wii party games. Halo isn't being over simplified to reach out to the causal gamers, so why is Nintendo dumbing down Zelda, one of their more serious games, for people who don't even want to play it? Zelda used to be for hardcore gamers. Zelda-I and Zelda-II are extremely difficult, casual gamers DO NOT play those games. A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, all games that casual gamers don't care for, only the hardcore gamers would play them. Then Wind Waker came out and that's when Zelda games became easy, that's when Nintendo decided that they wanted to cater to the casual gamers. Twilight Princess, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, and Skyward Sword all got complaints of being too easy. Skyward Sword tried really hard to cater to the casual gamers, but the problem is that casual gamers didn't want to play that game. Does Nintendo just not realize that casual gamers don't want Zelda? Do you think they should go back to making Zelda games the way they used to, hard. I fear that Zelda games will be gone in a few years if they don't start making their Zelda games difficult again.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
Zelda is definitely easier than it used to be, and I personally wish the series would go back to being more difficult. Skyward Sword was a step in the right direction in terms of the combat at least, but hand-holding and giving direction was as bad as it has ever been. That stuff wouldn't be a problem at all if it was completely optional. I also wish puzzle difficulty would be increased.

However, I think this argument that catering to casual gamers is going to lead to Zelda's demise is just extremely improbable. Twilight Princess caters to casual gamers in your opinion and it is the highest selling Zelda game ever. I would agree that the extent of catering to casual gamers is way more than necessary and that Nintendo is misguided in doing so. Also IMO Ocarina of Time definitely did cater to casual players too- it was the first Zelda game with helper.
 

Ventus

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Casuals adore Skyward Sword, I don't know what you're talking about. And it attracted far too many casuals for my tastes, everyone praising the game as if it's a godsend, zero flaws at all. It's a successful Zelda game, and a successful video game. I'm saying that right now because if I said the contrary, I'd be lying to the core.

I'm just disappointed that games are too easy. The old fans will leave the Zelda fanbase, but rest assured that the casual fanbase is the one that holds majority of fans. Easy Zeldas will continue to attract players. They just won't be as hardened or "hardcore" as the LoZ-MM fans. The casuals now want to redefine the term hardcore as "omg we plai da gaem so we hardcore", though that's not what the term has come to mean in recent years. I don't want future Zeldas to be as easy as Skyward Sword. I want ALttP or MM difficulty, please. Even so, Nintendo will continue to make successful Zelda games.

Basically, the easier and thus more casual a game gets, the less harder (obviously) and less hardcore the game will get. It's how things work.
 
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I've never minded the difficulty decrease in Zelda but I have noticed it. Though it was really hammered home in SS, I never really have many heart pieces by the end of a zelda game because i like the challenge of the boss at the end with little help and sidequests are fun to leave for post game to make it last longer, yet at the end of SS i had all but one piece of heart left to find, and had every single bug and near enough every weapon upgrade and all except 5 gratitude crystals, its almost like SS didn't want to be replayed or played any more after the final boss which was really awful. Do casual gamers just lick games and throw them away? I'll agree SS was far too easy and i guess it makes sense now as to why SS's content was so lacking and underdeveloped, casual gamers dont want deep gameplay... its a shame Nintendo feel the need to do this with Zelda when they have Mario and Kirby to do this with.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
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On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
First off, what the hell are you talking about with SS being the ultimate hand-holder? That couldn't be further from the truth. The only times SS held our hands was if we asked for it to. If you think otherwise, you're just plain wrong. I'm sure many people will point to the Shiekah Stone, but, uh, that was an optional source of help. Not forced at all. Same with all the other help in the game.

Now, Zelda may have become easier, but the difficulty levels ST and SS brought to the table were just about ideal for Zelda imo. Zelda's a series that SHOULD branch out to all sorts of gamers, whether casual or hardcore. The difficulty level should be one that's not frustraringly hard but not boringly easy. I definitely wouldn't mind multiple difficulty levels for the combat in the future -- that makes any game 10x better -- but the puzzles and the default combat difficulty levels should stay pretty much where they're at. They're at a great balance.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
New York, US
If by "hardcore" you mean "difficult", than I would agree that Zelda has been getting less so in the recent past. ALttP was definitely much more challenging than MC, OoT gave me a lot more trouble than TP, and so on. My death count for SS was 0 on my first run through, even though there were some close calls, and TP, PH, and ST were no more difficult. However, this is only true for the combat side of things.

When it comes to puzzles, the more recent games are just as "hardcore" as past ones have been, more so in some cases. On the first run through, I got stuck at least a few times in SS, PH, ST, all because of clever puzzles I had to think about a bit, and the Guardian Puzzle in TP still gives me trouble. If you don't go out of your way to get help (i.e. use the Sheikah Stone), you're still pretty much on your own for figuring out puzzles.

If you ask me, this is how it should be: if Nintendo has to lower difficulty levels to attract the casual crowd, the best way is by making the combat easier, making it harder to die. As long as the puzzles are still difficult, I will be happy, because the way Zelda games are set up, they allow you to control how hard the other aspects are by limiting yourself on hearts and potions. The fact that they included Hero Mode in SS (which I'm finding quite challenging so far) and made the Master Quest of OoT3DS so much harder shows that they are willing to give options to those of us who like more of a challenge.

The Zelda series may be getting easier, but in a way that can be adjusted for those who want more difficulty. I have absolutely no problems with it.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
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Switzerland
First off, what the hell are you talking about with SS being the ultimate hand-holder? That couldn't be further from the truth. The only times SS held our hands was if we asked for it to. If you think otherwise, you're just plain wrong. I'm sure many people will point to the Shiekah Stone, but, uh, that was an optional source of help. Not forced at all. Same with all the other help in the game.

The Shiekah Stone isn't even problematic, as its usage is entirely optional. But how about Fi? Fi pretty much did most of the thinking for you - pointing out the obvious in situations where you didn't even need advice in the first place. But most of the hand-holding is subliminally placed in dialogues, level design or the art style itself: For example, falling off an edge was made next to impossible. There were little to no obstacles when flying. Enemies were designed in a way that you instantly knew which part to slash at in order to defeat them (granted, previous Zelda games are even worse at this because of button-mashing, but it's hand-holding nonetheless imo). The whole linear and obstacle-like level design can arguably be seen as hand-holding, as you can't really "get lost" or "don't know how to progress".
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
The Shiekah Stone isn't even problematic, as its usage is entirely optional. But how about Fi? Fi pretty much did most of the thinking for you - pointing out the obvious in situations where you didn't even need advice in the first place. But most of the hand-holding is subliminally placed in dialogues, level design or the art style itself: For example, falling off an edge was made next to impossible. There were little to no obstacles when flying. Enemies were designed in a way that you instantly knew which part to slash at in order to defeat them (granted, previous Zelda games are even worse at this because of button-mashing, but it's hand-holding nonetheless imo). The whole linear and obstacle-like level design can arguably be seen as hand-holding, as you can't really "get lost" or "don't know how to progress".

Fi's statements were completely useless help-wise. They were just pointing out the obvious. The legitimate help she gave came from us asking for her help.
 

Ronin

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Either the Legend of Zelda never was a hardcore franchise, or I've played it too many years, and now I don't feel like it is. Outside the original 2D games, that is; those are well-known for being more demanding on the player.

But now that I think about it, the newer titles are beginning to feel much different than the classic 3D Zeldas, from the Nintendo 64 that is. They do seem to be limiting the choices of the players. Many quests in title beyond Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were things I didn't want to play through. The Triforce Hunt in Wind Waker serves as a paradigm for certain parts that I essentially dread, because it's too drawn-out.

Zelda is becoming linear. For better or worse, it's altering how I experience the game; Twilight Princess played very differently from Majora's Mask when I jumped into it years later. There were fewer options that I as the player could perform on my own, although I consider TP the larger game. In Majora's Mask you could go about as you pleased and finish tasks on your own time. Even make more time for yourself if the clock was running down. Thus the systems between these two greatly differ from each other. Yet I felt my volition was prohibited far more in Twilight Princess.

Does this linearity mean that the Legend of Zelda is deteriorating? Not at all. I still thoroughly enjoy it. Even if it's not so "hardcore" now (again I doubt it ever was that, subjectively), it continues to amaze me. I continue to replay the games when I can/feel like it a certain amount of times each year. The casual feel of the series doesn't bother me but instead opens itself to more engrossing features.

Casual gamers don't even want to play Zelda, so why bother trying? Casual gamers simply don't like Zelda games, they're perfectly happy playing Mario and Wii party games.

That's not entirely true. I consider myself a casual gamer, and I love playing Zelda, regardless of its level of difficulty, or lack thereof. To me, Zelda is actually casual; it isn't too hard or too easy. It's simply straightforward no matter what the situation's like.

And actually Mario is harder than Zelda. Some levels in the open-world Mario titles were impassable for me. But I suppose they were out of my range, and others are indeed capable of excelling at them.

I don't have a favorable opinion on Wii's self-named titles, except that they are also straightforward, only a little too lax for my liking.

First off, what the hey are you talking about with SS being the ultimate hand-holder? That couldn't be further from the truth. The only times SS held our hands was if we asked for it to. If you think otherwise, you're just plain wrong. I'm sure many people will point to the Shiekah Stone, but, uh, that was an optional source of help. Not forced at all. Same with all the other help in the game.

Skyward Sword was laden with an overabundance of instruction and hand-holding techniques, though. From the very beginning of the game certain characters stopped us from advancing and playing freely, just like Instructor (a very apt name, don't you think) Horwell did when we had to run up that stack of boxes. You can argue that it was necessary since it's a new feature altogether, but I'd say that's exactly my point. We were basically forced to go through the direction of running up those boxes, even after beating the game. The developers made sure there was no way around it, because...

“Japanese players do not like being thrown into an arena in which they are given very little instruction,”
-Hideo Kojima, creator of the popular "Metal Gear Solid"​

Nintendo introduced us to a brand new experience and they wanted their fans to have no dilemmas taking it in. However their methods of providing a didactic environment was poorly employed. Everything, from having to watch entire cutscenes and read whole texts to completing a back-and-forth task in order to move on, was compulsory. Forced. In this sense we had our hands held through major segments of the game. Even Fi stopped us to fill us in at certain parts, but mark, where we could have easily deduced what to do.

Another example: At one point we had to involuntarily learn the Loftwing's aerial spin attack by "Instructor" Owlan. But couldn't Zelda have taught us the same thing when we learned how to fly, instead of taking it out on those excessive targets? Link should have been instructed it from the beginning. That way we could practice it with Zelda, and on enemies who in that instance could inhabit the Sky rather than leaving it bare. We'd be ready to face the Bicolyte off in no time then.

In short Nintendo practically catered to their Japanese fans, but also included everyone outside their home into the mix. Not everyone appreciates the "helping hand"; they'd rather learn things on their own. But since we were given all this instruction, that made it much easier to memorize and all the more miserable in second or more playthroughs, as we are compelled to sit through all that again.

This doesn't mean Skyward Sword is atrocious, but Nintendo fell short with providing the most stimulating gameplay that it potentially could have been (excluding the overdose of guidance, that is).
 
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The terms "casual" and "hardcore" are extremely subjective player constructs. What defines whether a game or player falls into one category or the other? The type of game played, the hours spent playing the game, the control scheme used? Most "hardcore" gamers sneer at Nintendo for "abandoning" its former fanbase in favor of casuals. Truth be told, however, what Nintendo is really doing is broadening its audience to appeal to the largest crowd possible. The company certainly isn't steering towards more shallow games. Sure, the Wii and now it appears Wii U boast a vast array of minigame collections and fitness games but there arte also a plethora of Action-Adventure, Shooter, RPG, Racing, and RTS games to go around as well. Something that particularly struck me during the unveiling of Pikmin 3 was Mr. Miyamoto's statement that it's a deeper game which is something he believes consumers are moving away from and require more of. Not only was this consciously indirectly admitting the perceived threat of shorter games on devices like smartphones and tablet but also a reflection of his company's philosophy-to provide quality entertainment for the broadest audience possible.

In regards to Skyward Sword specifically, it did have its flaws but still remains true to the foundations of the franchise as well as Nintendo's overarching videogame philosophy. The overworld, the dungeons, the memorable story, the instrument, and more are all prevalent in the package but there is also that willingness to not only cater to the seasoned veteran but also the new player. In terms of pure combat and gameplay, I'd argue Skyward Sword is the most difficult franchise installment bar Adventure of Link. Nintendo really upped the ante with making enemies do a heart of damage apiece. Bosses also largely returned to franchise roots with few falling victim to the traditional stun, hack-and-slash pattern of recent installments. The company also kept its promise golden of largely extinguishing the difference between overworld and dungeon with the former filled with more enemies and puzzles than ever before. Speaking of puzzles, gone were the traditional block ones replaced with new and creative uses for the items throughout the entire game. Nintendo went all out with packing as much content into the game disc as possible. By length and variety of content, Skyward Sword could already be deemed "hardcore". Fi may have poked you in the right direction too often, however, she never flat-out solved a tricky puzzle for you, the thinking was left to the player, the way it should be. The Goddess Cube featured was also a completely optional hint system and unlike the Super Guide implemented in the company's 2D platformers, never played the game for you.

And all this is without even taking the story into account. I'd argue that the plot was one of the most mature in franchise history easily surpassing that of Twilight Princess which actually got less interesting as you reached the finish, the poignant ending of the Wind Waker, and even going head to head with the devastated parallel world of Termina from Majora's Mask. I'd like to forgive any inappropriate content in this paragraph in advance, however, I'd like to dive into greater detail regarding specific story and gameplay elements. Right off the bat, you were acquainted with Link's childhood friend. The bond between them was tremendous and bordered on the line of them physically expressing their love for each other through sexual acts especially during the parts where Link's crimson Loftwing fails to come to the rescue and the two are riding on their Loftwings before Zelda is snatched away. Things only got better from there. The Imprisoned was a psychological allegory in and of itself. The haunting nightmares that plagued Link deeply moved me. And then there was Ghirahim and his master, Demise. The fabulous demon lord was easily the most demented villain in franchise history but he was all the better for it. Nintendo clearly took a page from Japanese anime in designing the character and the usual tandem of sexual avarice and lust for bloodshed was present here. The physical transformation of Ghirahim's body is symbolic too from the paleness of his original form where he merely toys around with Link to the dark metallic hue of his true self intent on murder. Despite the strength of Ghraihim as a character, his master captivated me even more. Demise reminded me of all the best from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess Ganondorf. He was fierce in aesthetic but also possessed that poetic lure. Throw two of the greatest villains in franchise history in context with the sacrifices made by Fi and Zelda (Hylia) and the final product is one of the most heartfelt games in years. In no way was Skyward Sword, a "dumbed down" version of the franchise we all know and love. Skyward Sword was a compact package of emotion, great gameplay, and presentation that pushes the hardware to its limit and you have a true "hardcore" game without mindless shooting and blood, meandering across listless plains or navigating confusing menus.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
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Skyward Sword was laden with an overabundance of instruction and hand-holding techniques, though. From the very beginning of the game certain characters stopped us from advancing and playing freely, just like Instructor (a very apt name, don't you think) Horwell did when we had to run up that stack of boxes. You can argue that it was necessary since it's a new feature altogether, but I'd say that's exactly my point. We were basically forced to go through the direction of running up those boxes, even after beating the game. The developers made sure there was no way around it, because...

“Japanese players do not like being thrown into an arena in which they are given very little instruction,”
-Hideo Kojima, creator of the popular "Metal Gear Solid"​

Nintendo introduced us to a brand new experience and they wanted their fans to have no dilemmas taking it in. However their methods of providing a didactic environment was poorly employed. Everything, from having to watch entire cutscenes and read whole texts to completing a back-and-forth task in order to move on, was compulsory. Forced. In this sense we had our hands held through major segments of the game. Even Fi stopped us to fill us in at certain parts, but mark, where we could have easily deduced what to do.

Another example: At one point we had to involuntarily learn the Loftwing's aerial spin attack by "Instructor" Owlan. But couldn't Zelda have taught us the same thing when we learned how to fly, instead of taking it out on those excessive targets? Link should have been instructed it from the beginning. That way we could practice it with Zelda, and on enemies who in that instance could inhabit the Sky rather than leaving it bare. We'd be ready to face the Bicolyte off in no time then.

In short Nintendo practically catered to their Japanese fans, but also included everyone outside their home into the mix. Not everyone appreciates the "helping hand"; they'd rather learn things on their own. But since we were given all this instruction, that made it much easier to memorize and all the more miserable in second or more playthroughs, as we are compelled to sit through all that again.

This doesn't mean Skyward Sword is atrocious, but Nintendo fell short with providing the most stimulating gameplay that it potentially could have been (excluding the overdose of guidance, that is).

A few instructional moments doesn't mean the entire game holds your hand. The game still required us to figure out what to do on our own for the vast majority of the game. We were pointed in a general dirction and were on our own from there. Hand-holding would be being guided by some sort of aid the entire way, which is the last thing SS did. SS held our hands about as much as the N64 games did, which was barely at all. Saying otherwise is very shallow thinking.
 

Terminus

If I was a wizard this wouldn't be happening to me
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I want to be stumped by a game, like MM is doing to me. SS was far too easy. I'll play any Zelda game (Not CDi, but hose don't count) even though I started in the time of Phantom Hourglass. I crave toughness in Zelda games. If it doesn't frustrate me to the point of anger (annoying sidekicks don't count) it's not really great enough. And I don't care what people say, Fi is really *****y. I don't want to hear her "analysis" every time I walk into a certain area.

Fi's statements were completely useless help-wise. They were just pointing out the obvious. The legitimate help she gave came from us asking for her help.

They were helpful twice throughout the entire game. She only tells you stuff you don't want to hear and can't skip.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
I'd actually be interested to know exactly what a hardcore Zelda fan is as it seems only those who have MM OoT or aLttP as their favourite Zelda game are given such title. Because WW is my favourite I'm not considered a hardcore fan, despite having completed OoT at the age of seven and having far more experience with the franchise than some. The term 'hardcore fan' is almost as overused as the term 'fanboy' and both display a complete ignorance of personal opinion and aversion to preferences contradicting your own. If you ask me it's just a lazy way of giving a person the finger and telling them they're evil for thinking for themselves.
I used the term casual gamer in my post rather than casual Zelda fan. The word fan is short for fanatic so a casual fan is really an oxymoron IMO. I was more thinking of Zelda inviting new players to the series or people who don't play many video games and making it easier for them to enjoy the game. For selfish reasons I'd highly prefer it if accomodations for such casual players were nonexistent and that the games were harder.

Also if there was such a thing as a hardcore Zelda fan, than certainly people who loved Wind Waker would fit my definition. So many people laughed off the series purely for graphics rather than sticking with it for its proven gameplay, and Wind Waker really delivered.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Location
Washington
A lot of Zelda players live in America.
America is getting stupider.
This results in the Zelda games getting a lot easier so that the people of the USA can play it without straining their minds..
and i'm american and can admit that we as a country are becoming ridiculously lazy, ignorant, and well, dumb..

And, this certainly doesn't apply to everyone! Just a good amount of people.
 

SecretNerd-sshh

Its a secret to everyone
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Location
USA
Zelda games have been going more and more in the easy direction in my opinion. To be honest it really hasnt been hardcore since the NES days. I really dont mind it because we all make our own heart challenges and all that jazz and that makes it fun if your looking for a challenge. Hero mode was a step in the right direction, no doubt. If nintendo would just release small bits of additional story and solve a few mysteries that other games created via cutscenes/NPC dialogue for future hero modes that would be awesome.
 

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