Is Miyamoto Killing Off Some of the Races We Know and Love?

[99% ZeldaExpert]

Link basically started his adventure at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. In OoT, the land of Hyrule is now the bottom of the land chain. Following the most average timelines, Zelda basically began in OoT on that Hyrule with Zora, Kokiri, and Gorons. But after the flood that the gods caused to protect the Triforce, that land was gone. Taking most of the Gorons with them because as we know Gorons are terrible swimmers with their rock hard bodies. Sure a few gorons show up here and there but most of them were wiped out. Now as we know from the pre-released details of the upcoming game Skyward Sword, Link begins his adventure in a city in the sky. Now I know he jumps down to save the world below but it's obvious Miyamoto is working up and not down. So sooner or later we will have no rocks for Gorons to live in and no water for Zora to swim in. They are adding new races such as the Oocca and they can hopefully bring back the Rito but, they are taking out the originals. We all know that if not now we eventually will be wishing for those races to come back. I mean surely we don't want our kids to be playing future Zelda games and have them question you about there originally being races they've never heard of.

 

[Djinn]

The Gorons are still alive and well in the direct sequels Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. They had their own island and region of New Hyrule. The Zora of OoT were nowhere to be seen but the original Zora of LoZ were present under the name Geozard. So while some have disappeared, others from much earlier have returned.

While I imagine the situation was supposed to appear bleak in WW as an apocalypse had essentially happened. Hyrule was gone, and the survivors were living off the few remaining remnants of the world left above the water. But the Gorons and Zora were both still present alive and well in the very next game TP. So I do not believe that they are being removed in any meaningful way.

The Gerudo and Kokiri I assumed were not in TP becasue there was no story driven purpose to have them there. TP Link was not associated with the Kokiri and Ganondorf was not there as the king of the Gerudo. However I do wish Nintendo would continue using established races from previous games instead of dropping them in favor of new ones such as the Twili and Anouki. The list of tribes living in Hyrule is getting crowded when every new game introduces a new one per sequel.

 

[Locke]

Are you suggesting the next game will be in space? xD (land->mountains(with high water level)->sky->)
The people were told to climb to safety before Hyrule was flooded, so the lack of Gorons in WW wasn't an issue of them not being able to swim, as they already would have climbed Death Mountain. It's more likely that they didn't serve a purpose for the gameplay. They decided to have a trading quest, needed merchants, considered that they weren't using Gorons for anything, and 'secretly' added them in. Same thing happened with Zora and Rito. They didn't need water creatures, and they did need flying creatures. (There's an interview about this that you can find somewhere on ZD. It's Aounuma interviewing the creaters of the Zelda manga.)
The rest of what I was going to say is identical to Djinn's last paragraph.

 

[99% ZeldaExpert]

To be honest I didn't like most of the new races in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks but you have to see that it is obviously impossible for heavy-weighted creatures like Gorons to be in a light-weight environment such as a city in the sky. Unless of course they make a sturdy platform of some kind that can withstand the weight of a full grown Goron but then they would have to explain the reasoning for a ginormous platform floating in the sky that everyone below found so normal they never talked about it. They could possibly detail that the city in the sky is on the peak of a mountain so high it breaks through the clouds and that the mountain was maybe to steep for people below to climb but for one that would completly mess up the geographical features and would be hard to beleive. Maybe, as transportation in a way, the Roc's Feather or Roc's Cape will make another appearance to Skyward Sword as human transportation between the ground and above but otherwise I find it unlikely for many of the races to be showing up much. Like I said here and there maybe but they Gorons are already gone pretty much besides the few that reside on the island. I don't know. Hopefully when Skyward Sword is released a lot of our frequent questions will be answered such as a piece of the timeline therory, geographical features of the game, and such as this about races coming and going.

Are you suggesting the next game will be in space? xD (land->mountains(with high water level)->sky->)

No i'm not saying they will be in space but unless Miyamoto plans to continue adding water to the edge of the world's atmosphere I don't see much ground or water in the future. The main point of this is that they are building up to levels where Gorons and Zora don't belong. The old saying, "The sky is the limit," is almost to litteral and I beleive Miyamoto took that to heart. Unless they start changing the Gorons like they did to the Zora to make them more acclimated to the environment which I could see happening but it still goes with the question, do we not want to see the classic races return to future games? I think Miyamoto needs to make a Link in the sky but then work his way back down to level ground.

On another note, i've always thought Zelda in completly different environments would be a nice touch to some spin off games or something. Of course following the timeline would be difficult for Zelda to suddenly be in space but it is still quite possible. They have already started making machines such as the Trains in Spirit Tracks so it wouldn't be long before they create cars and other things. Although I do enjoy the slight medieval touch that Zelda games have, spin offs or something with slightly higher tech would be nice. Just to see what people think of Nintendo releasing something completly different than what they have already been doing.

Are you suggesting the next game will be in space? xD (land->mountains(with high water level)->sky->)

No i'm not saying they will be in space but unless Miyamoto plans to continue adding water to the edge of the world's atmosphere I don't see much ground or water in the future. The main point of this is that they are building up to levels where Gorons and Zora don't belong. The old saying, "The sky is the limit," is almost to litteral and I beleive Miyamoto took that to heart. Unless they start changing the Gorons like they did to the Zora to make them more acclimated to the environment which I could see happening but it still goes with the question, do we not want to see the classic races return to future games? I think Miyamoto needs to make a Link in the sky but then work his way back down to level ground.
On another note, i've always thought Zelda in completly different environments would be a nice touch to some spin off games or something. Of course following the timeline would be difficult for Zelda to suddenly be in space but it is still quite possible. They have already started making machines such as the Trains in Spirit Tracks so it wouldn't be long before they create cars and other things. Although I do enjoy the slight medieval touch that Zelda games have, spin offs or something with slightly higher tech would be nice. Just to see what people think of Nintendo releasing something completly different than what they have already been doing. Personally I think a Zelda based underground would be an interesting theme.

 

[Satsy]

Considering Skyward Sword is said to be set before OoT, what stops Gorons being in the warring land below Link's sky home?

So far the only races that have really suffered are the Zora, Gerudo and Kokiri. Though the Zora never used to be kindly blue creatures, and their angry green counterparts have made further appearances. And the Gerudo, being of a strikingly similar build to the Hylians, could well have been assimilated with the loss of their King. Which leaves the Kokiri, which became Koroks in their... second appearance? Did Kokiris as a race appear in any other game? I don't recall off-hand. However their existence could well be tied to the Deku Tree, so if the tree never re-sprouts, the kokiri would either die off, or age and perhaps join the Hylians. Which would explain the human-like races' absence in games prior to OoT as well.

But as far as Gorons go, they certainly don't seem to be forgotten yet. The old river Zoras, we'd have to see.

 

[Michael Heide]

Link basically started his adventure at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. In OoT, the land of Hyrule is now the bottom of the land chain. Following the most average timelines, Zelda basically began in OoT on that Hyrule with Zora, Kokiri, and Gorons. But after the flood that the gods caused to protect the Triforce, that land was gone. Taking most of the Gorons with them because as we know Gorons are terrible swimmers with their rock hard bodies. Sure a few gorons show up here and there but most of them were wiped out.

First of all, Wind Waker-Phantom Hourglass-Spirit Tracks is just one timeline (that still has Gorons, by the way). After Ocarina of Time, the other timeline has Majora's Mask-Twilight Princess, and the Gorons are still around there as well.

Now as we know from the pre-released details of the upcoming game Skyward Sword, Link begins his adventure in a city in the sky.

That game takes place before Ocarina of Time. Whatever happens there will not affect the races of Ocarina of Time. And you phrased it right: He will begin his adventure there. But we already know that he will leave Skyloft and discover the land beneath: Hyrule.

Now I know he jumps down to save the world below but it's obvious Miyamoto is working up and not down.

Could you please elaborate on that? Are you saying that there won't be another Zelda after SWS that takes place on the ground? And that that is a deliberate plan somehow? I doubt that. Nintendo is playing around with the formula every now and then, but they always get back to classic Hyrule. Link's Awakening introduced Koholint, and the next game (OoT) was back in Hyrule. Majora's Mask introduced Termina, Four Swords was back in Hyrule. Wind Waker introduced the great ocean, Minish Cap was back in Hyrule. Phantom Hourglass was in the land of the Ocean King, Spirit Tracks was in a new Hyrule. Besides, SWS has Hyrule, so I really fail to see your point.

So sooner or later we will have no rocks for Gorons to live in and no water for Zora to swim in.

Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link, at the far end of the "young Link timeline", have rocks and water. Zoras appear. Spirit Tracks, at the end of the "adult Link timeline", has rocks and water. Gorons appear.

They are adding new races such as the Oocca and they can hopefully bring back the Rito but, they are taking out the originals.

First of all, the Gorons weren't even introduced until Zelda 5, so calling them "originals" shows a warped perspective.
And then, who says that there won't be any Gorons in whatever games will be published after Spirit Tracks? Have you read a single official interview that says as much, or is this pure conjecture?

We all know that if not now we eventually will be wishing for those races to come back. I mean surely we don't want our kids to be playing future Zelda games and have them question you about there originally being races they've never heard of.

I don't know, that's already happening. Do you remember Animal Village? But that doesn't bother me, since the Zelda games keep being re-released again and again and again. If you truly think that there is a huge conspiracy at Nintendo that wants to prevent the next generation of gamers from knowing the races from Ocarina of Time, then why do they rerelease Ocarina of Time for the 3DS? You know what, if they replace the Gorons and Zoras in OoT 3D with other, new races, then you've got a point. But nothing we've read so far hints at that scenario. At all.

 

[TFWTH]

Thanks to this thread I just imagined Sci-Fi Zelda.
And now I want it very much.

But yeah, I think Zelda's creativity in terms of races is one of the best things about it. I mean, forest children transforming into little wood sprites? The race of mountain dwellers becoming travelling salesmen (pretty much)? The swimming race, even though most of the world is water, have practically disappeared (or evolved into bird people)? It lets us ask questions, but not in a bad way, Zelda thrives on theories.

So yeah, if they disappear, that's just another question to throw into the pile.

 

[Alex Arbiter]

Upon thinking over this its clear that most of the races are being taken out, but not completely since of the fact that they just weren't put into the game! Clearly to make room for another race. All in all, most of the races are going to be and are still in the new games, but they should bring back the Tokay!

 

[ZeldafreakCJM]

I doubt that the "original races" as you put it, will be excluded from Skyward Sword. First of all the Gorons have appeared in about every zelda game execpt LOZ, AOL, ALttP, and LA. second the Zoras have only been absent from two of the most recent 3 Zelda games. I do agree that there has been a recent abundent amount of Sky races appearing in Zelda games, but I seriously doubt that this means the Zoras and Gorons are being killed off. In fact look at this picture: In the background is a volcano or I guess a open mountain. Since its not flooded by water one could assume that thats Death Mountain which usually means gorons. As for Zoras, in the begining of the Demo there is a small scene where it shows a waterfall and a pool of (what one can assume to be) fresh water. Zoras are fresh water creatures. Zoras and Gorons have appeared in most of the recent games. So its pretty clear by this picture and recent games that there is a high chance of both Gorons and Zoras appearing in SS. As for Kokiri and the Gerudo. I always thought the main reason they weren't in TP was they were more of an OoT exclusive. I should point out that the area in picture is the demo area, and theres a chance it won't be in the game. But it still would be pointless for nintendo to excluded the Zoras and Gorons from SS.

 

[dur.i.am]

Link basically started his adventure at the bottom of the barrel, so to speak. In OoT, the land of Hyrule is now the bottom of the land chain. Following the most average timelines, Zelda basically began in OoT on that Hyrule with Zora, Kokiri, and Gorons. But after the flood that the gods caused to protect the Triforce, that land was gone. Taking most of the Gorons with them because as we know Gorons are terrible swimmers with their rock hard bodies. Sure a few gorons show up here and there but most of them were wiped out. Now as we know from the pre-released details of the upcoming game Skyward Sword, Link begins his adventure in a city in the sky. Now I know he jumps down to save the world below but it's obvious Miyamoto is working up and not down. So sooner or later we will have no rocks for Gorons to live in and no water for Zora to swim in. They are adding new races such as the Oocca and they can hopefully bring back the Rito but, they are taking out the originals. We all know that if not now we eventually will be wishing for those races to come back. I mean surely we don't want our kids to be playing future Zelda games and have them question you about there originally being races they've never heard of.

Wind Waker does show that the Zoras aren't going to appear on the adult timeline due to the fact that they evolved into the Rito, and this is backed up by Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks as they do not appear in either (and neither do the Rito if I remember correctly). But on the child timeline, they are still going pretty strong, appearing on the majority (if not all) games that appeared in 3D since Ocarina of Time. Therefore I don't think that they will be disappearing too soon.

Miyamoto just likes to add and remove certain races from certain games when they aren't necessary to the plot, and are put aside until future Zelda games. There are a fair amount of races that haven't reappeared since they first appeared in the Zelda series, but I think that's some of the races have implications pointing towards the idea that there are few of them left, and they will be disappearing some time after that Zelda game is finished. I think that the adult timeline is more of playground for the Zelda team now as they can add new races and have yet to kill off the Goron race.

No i'm not saying they will be in space but unless Miyamoto plans to continue adding water to the edge of the world's atmosphere I don't see much ground or water in the future. The main point of this is that they are building up to levels where Gorons and Zora don't belong. The old saying, "The sky is the limit," is almost to litteral and I beleive Miyamoto took that to heart. Unless they start changing the Gorons like they did to the Zora to make them more acclimated to the environment which I could see happening but it still goes with the question, do we not want to see the classic races return to future games? I think Miyamoto needs to make a Link in the sky but then work his way back down to level ground.

You might want to rephrase that first part, it contradicts itself and may confuse others. If I've interpretated it correctly though, you think that if Miyamoto plans to flood Hyrule even further, then it still only effects the adult timeline. And he probably won't do that anyway, as that would just cause too much hassle and criticism for the major change in the series, as well as being hated for being too advanced (as it would be beyond the modern day, even we can't effectively create a lifestyle in which we would be able to live independently of the planet for any extended period of time as we can't find the resources to live off of. The idea that he's making his way towards space just seems illogical, after Wind Waker we were pulled back down to a normal Hyrule with Twilight Princess and I believe that Spirit Tracks did something similar too, so really there is no pattern to suggest that he will, if anything, it basically states that we are back down on ground level. Skyward Sword as far as I have heard is something to do with piecing back together, but Link just happens to start off on Skyloft. If that is the case then it's more than likely that we will finish the game on the ground. But I have no evidence to back up that idea about the plot, so it's just hearsay.

On towards my conclusion, which I have already kinda said before hand. I believe that the Zelda team is adding and removing races when they see it as fit in, or just have one cameo appearance then saying good riddance; the latter seems to be the case with the Rito and the Deku as they were depicted in Majora's Mask. I think it's good that this happens though, it stops the game from just using the same couple of races over and over and it allows the Zelda team to add a lot more variety in the plots of the games (and other aspects such as environment), something that I think it a very good direction for the Zelda series to keep travelling along.

 

[DuckNoises]

To be quite honest, this thread sounded a little bit like an angry rant from the beginning, and that isn't really the best way to start a discussion. I don't think there's much more to be said here, so I'll proceed to close this thread in a couple days if the discussion doesn't move away from the "rant" mentality before things get hairy.

Finally, this doesn't really belong in theory, as it's not so much about timeline analysis as it is a trend in the making of the games. The thread is being moved to World of Zelda.