General Classic If You Had to Pick a Mario Game Over a Zelda Game Each Generation

[RedLink]

Not inherently. Majora's Mask is a pretty linear title in itself, but there's simply a ton of things to do as well as a LOT of emotion being generated. Its pros make it an amazing game - probably better than OoT by most neo-fans' accounts. However, Skyward Sword's linearity only serves as a detriment as there is not much to do and a lot LESS emotion being generated, at least for me.

In regards to Mario, I have never found linearity a problem due to the nature of platformers, and it's ingenious level design that saves SMG2 from being closer to bottom rung, In My Opinion.

Let us be honest with ourselves: Majora's Mask was pretty anti-linear. I've heard people say (and from personal experience I can support) that the game does this to you on purpose so that you're exactly like Link- unaware of what's going on whilst being thrown in as the savior. It's definitely a unique idea and one that has won over a bunch of fans, though unfortunately I cannot lay claim to that

 

[DarkestLink]

There's nothing wrong with linear though, right?

It depends. In a game like Zelda where you gain superior puzzles, story, difficulty curve, and organization, linearity is well worth it. In a title like Mario which doesn't really have anything to gain from linearity and excels in exploration and freedom, linearity isn't good. Mario has no story, nor a strong puzzle focus, and has little to no power ups gained in the game, so why they make Mario linear is beyond me.

There's also linearity in structure and linearity in gameplay design. Mario is also very linear here. If we are talking about a level, like a dungeon or a level (As seen in 2D Mario games), then it's fine. But you don't want linear worlds (A world being something like Hyrule, Bomb Omb Battlefield, or Good Egg Galaxy). A level is a progressive one track course. A world is meant to be free and feel like a world should. SMG feels like SM3DL with the levels disguised as worlds by grouping them together.

Let us be honest with ourselves: Majora's Mask was pretty anti-linear.

Majora's Mask was the first game to actively block off areas to ensure you did the previous dungeon. And it's the only game I can think of that has several sidequests that must be completed in order.

 

[RedLink]

@RedLink
Also, linearity whether I like it or not really does lend itself towards stories. A logical flow and chain of events will (usually) create a better story than separate links cast across space-time continuum. Of course, the story in question has to have strong base for anything to really aid it.

I believe we have different interpretations as to what linearity means. For me, it's the next objective being obviously there (case in point, Skyward Sword). I think you believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but a consistent series of events that lead up to a finale (case in point, NOT World at War)?

I think a lotta LoZ fans dislike linearity cause linearity wasn't exactly what the series was founded on, as far as I know. It was always about solving the puzzles and going your own way.

It depends. In a game like Zelda where you gain superior puzzles, story, difficulty curve, and organization, linearity is well worth it. In a title like Mario which doesn't really have anything to gain from linearity and excels in exploration and freedom, linearity isn't good. Mario has no story, nor a strong puzzle focus, and has little to no power ups gained in the game, so why they make Mario linear is beyond me.

There's also linearity in structure and linearity in gameplay design. Mario is also very linear here. If we are talking about a level, like a dungeon or a level (As seen in 2D Mario games), then it's fine. But you don't want linear worlds (A world being something like Hyrule, Bomb Omb Battlefield, or Good Egg Galaxy). A level is a progressive one track course. A world is meant to be free and feel like a world should. SMG feels like SM3DL with the levels disguised as worlds by grouping them together.

Well said, but what is this about power-ups not being very abundant? I assume you are not talking about the Galaxy games.

Majora's Mask was the first game to actively block off areas to ensure you did the previous dungeon. And it's the only game I can think of that has several sidequests that must be completed in order.

See my answer to Ventus. I think our definitions differ as to what linear is.

 

[JuicieJ]

I believe we have different interpretations as to what linearity means. For me, it's the next objective being obviously there (case in point, Skyward Sword). I think you believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but a consistent series of events that lead up to a finale (case in point, NOT World at War)?

How is World at War not linear? I can guarantee you even the most linear of Zeldas (Twilight Princess) is less linear than any Call of Duty game.

 

[ihateghirahim]

SMG2 was not perfect. SMG had a sort of soul to; a feel. SMG2 was really just a series of levels, yet its simple system of complex pleasures really does beat the bad overworld, musical disappointment, and Ghirahim of SS. I like SS, but it fails to bring a deep and immersive world like OoT or the basic level design of SMG2.

 

[RedLink]

@JuicieJ- I meant storywise, it was too fragmented and changing. Of course each level and gameplay was linear. P.S. Love the sig!

 

[Ventus]

I believe we have different interpretations as to what linearity means. For me, it's the next objective being obviously there (case in point, Skyward Sword). I think you believe, and correct me if I am wrong, but a consistent series of events that lead up to a finale (case in point, NOT World at War)?

I think a lotta LoZ fans dislike linearity cause linearity wasn't exactly what the series was founded on, as far as I know. It was always about solving the puzzles and going your own way.

Ah, your interpretation is exactly what mine is, I guess I was using the wrong idea in the wrong area!

That's definitely true, and I'm one of them - I dislike linearity because the original allowed us to do almost whatever we pleased.

 

[RedLink]

@Ventus- Maybe I will create another thread discussing linearity in the Legend of Zelda franchise. Quick question sir- how linear is Ocarina of Time and ALttP on a scale of Original to Skyward Sword?

 

[JuicieJ]

@JuicieJ- I meant storywise, it was too fragmented and changing. Of course each level and gameplay was linear. P.S. Love the sig!

Ohhhhhhhhh, gotcha.

And thanks! ^^

@Ventus- Maybe I will create another thread discussing linearity in the Legend of Zelda franchise. Quick question sir- how linear is Ocarina of Time and ALttP on a scale of Original to Skyward Sword?

Ocarina of Time is, in all honesty, only marginally less linear than Skyward Sword strictly due to its overworld. The areas that branch off from Hyrule Field are extremely lengthy hallways for the most part, so there's not much sense of free-roaming in them. If it weren't for the ability to complete dungeons in multiple orders in the second half, I would honestly say Skyward Sword was marginally less linear than Ocarina of Time.

As for A Link to the Past, it's not even a contest. The overworld is one open mass (with some logical restrictions) with incredible freedom of choice as to how you're going to complete the dungeons in the second half. With the exception of the original Zelda, A Link to the Past is the most non-linear Zelda title to date.

 

[DarkestLink]

I think a lotta LoZ fans dislike linearity cause linearity wasn't exactly what the series was founded on, as far as I know. It was always about solving the puzzles and going your own way.

Yes and no. The series was made with non-linearity and fairly difficult, but the puzzles weren't really a focus. Compare LoZ puzzles to even the most minor puzzles in newer games...it's laughable.

Well said, but what is this about power-ups not being very abundant? I assume you are not talking about the Galaxy games.

I think I should have worded that better.

has little to no power ups gained in the game,

I say gain because power ups like the Bee Mushroom is not gained--it's always there. You can get it at any time. But the fly cap and the red star are not always there, they are earned. These are more like Zelda's items which you must obtain in the game, rather than being present from the beginning. In Zelda, when and where you obtain these items matter because this is what decides if you use them in later dungeons or not and what items can be used together. In Mario, you have almost everything to begin with. While you cannot access it at will, it's always available when need be.

 

[RedLink]

Yes and no. The series was made with non-linearity and fairly difficult, but the puzzles weren't really a focus. Compare LoZ puzzles to even the most minor puzzles in newer games...it's laughable.



I think I should have worded that better.

has little to no power ups gained in the game,

I say gain because power ups like the Bee Mushroom is not gained--it's always there. You can get it at any time. But the fly cap and the red star are not always there, they are earned. These are more like Zelda's items which you must obtain in the game, rather than being present from the beginning. In Zelda, when and where you obtain these items matter because this is what decides if you use them in later dungeons or not and what items can be used together. In Mario, you have almost everything to begin with. While you cannot access it at will, it's always available when need be.

Oh, gotcha! But technically speaking, some worlds with power-ups you do not unlock until you get enough power stars, such as the Toy Galaxy containing the Spring Suit.

 

[Fred Flintstone]

Well the SMGs were inferior. MM is godlike. That leaves windwaker the losing zelda title here.

SMS actually may be my favourite non rpg mario. That said, it is still only about equal to a better than average zelda game. I havn't played mario on the ds but I'm sure its better than zelda. Zelda II would lose to Mario II mainly because mario II saves much more efficiently.

 

[RedLink]

Well the SMGs were inferior. MM is godlike. That leaves windwaker the losing zelda title here.

SMS actually may be my favourite non rpg mario. That said, it is still only about equal to a better than average zelda game. I havn't played mario on the ds but I'm sure its better than zelda. Zelda II would lose to Mario II mainly because mario II saves much more efficiently.

I like your pledge lol.

I really don't see where all the hate towards SMS comes from. It's personally my 2nd favorite Mario game to Super Mario Galaxy 2.

 

[Chameleon]

the only Mario game I'd choose over a Zelda game would be Sunshine because I'm not a fan of Wind Waker and Sunshine is one of my childhood games I love the most.

 

[Keeseman]

I have not played TWW or SMG2, so I have no real say in those options. As for the 64 games, I just love both Zelda games way too much. Even incredible games like SM64 can't beat either of them in my mind. Super Mario Galaxy was amazing, to say the least, and levels greater than TP. So I'll go with that.

Ocarina of Time is, in all honesty, only marginally less linear than Skyward Sword strictly due to its overworld. The areas that branch off from Hyrule Field are extremely lengthy hallways for the most part, so there's not much sense of free-roaming in them. If it weren't for the ability to complete dungeons in multiple orders in the second half, I would honestly say Skyward Sword was marginally less linear than Ocarina of Time.

As for A Link to the Past, it's not even a contest. The overworld is one open mass (with some logical restrictions) with incredible freedom of choice as to how you're going to complete the dungeons in the second half. With the exception of the original Zelda, A Link to the Past is the most non-linear Zelda title to date.

Great, somebody started another argument about linearity with JJ...