• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

General Zelda How Would You Incease Difficulty?

Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Location
Desert Wastlands
It would be harder if they made the monsters take more hits to kill, and they give some good damage. Also even by making the puzzles harder would up the difficulty. I would like it if they had the option to change what difficulty you want.
 

The Jade Fist

Kung Fu Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
I completely disagree. Fairness is a joke. Take Guild Wars Factions for example. In it, there's an Elite Mission called "The Deep". Trust me, this mission is anything BUT fair. In one room particularly, there's an ongoing effect called Aspect of Pain, which gives every character -2 health degenation and 20% less maximum health. It's ongoing while you're in that room. And guess what else? It's completely unavoidable. There are other annoying rooms, such as the Scorpion Aspect room which teleports you to the nearest foe and knocks you down...but Pain is likely the worst one next to Kanaxai's room o_O

My point is that, unfairness is a legitimate part of challenge. And unfairness is nothing new to gaming, nor is it new to Zelda. Counteracting unfairness is what gives players that sense of relief, and that sense of enjoyment.
Kanaxai.jpg
Its not challenge, if you just take damage for the sake of making you take damage. Challenge is testing your ability.

Unavoidable damage could be fair, if persay it was to force you to fight quickly, but thats another way of avoiding the damage if that makes sense.

But if you mean simply taking damage because an enemy looks at you cross eyed and chunks off hearts for it, its gota be handled well or else its not part of challenge and simply damage received. Its about risk and reward, and punishment, the player needs to be rewarded for doing well, and punished for making mistakes.

If your mistake is simply not fighting fast enough, thats fine, sort of like Redeads in OoT. They'd do unavoidable damage in a sense, if you didn't dispatch one as fast as possible/ sun's song.
 

balloonofwar4

The Mystical Man-Fairy
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Location
Tingle Island, where else?
This can really be summed up into 2 parts: Combat and Puzzles.

Combat: Give the enemies higher health and higher attack power. Make them appear in bigger packs and have them be faster. By making all pause menus real time (kind of like in SS), the player would have to be quick on their feet if they wanted to change weapons. Have multiple ways to kill enemies.

Puzzles: First of all, put more of them out there. Zelda needs more puzzles. Make some of these puzzles overworld-wide, meaning pushing a block in Eldin opens up a cave in Faron. Make the dungeons have central puzzles, branching out with smaller sub puzzles. Make enemies attack you while you are trying to complete a puzzle.

On the subject of unavoidable damage, I agree with both Jade and Ventus. If unavoidable damage comes by walking through a hallway of lava, go for it. If unavoidable comes by an enemy suddenly grabbing you and delivering an intsa kill, that is bad.
 

Kirino

Tatakae
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Location
USA
Dungeons would have to stop being so forgiving. Enough with the checkpoints*. Back in my day, when I saved I didn't have a checkpoint.

That would be going backwards. Forcing you to the start when you save/die and making you walk all the way back to where you were? Why would you even want that? It would only end up being tedious and annoying. It's just an old limitation that everyone's glad to be rid of. Having checkpoints doesn't reduce difficulty whatsoever. It simply makes the game more accessible and reduces the tedium.

My point is that, unfairness is a legitimate part of challenge. And unfairness is nothing new to gaming, nor is it new to Zelda. Counteracting unfairness is what gives players that sense of relief, and that sense of enjoyment.

You can still make a fair game that's difficult. Unfairness alienates casuals. I want to be challenged, but I don't want the odds massively stacked against me. I still want to have fun.
 

snakeoiltanker

Wake Up!
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Location
Ohio
I wouldn't. I'd change the way difficulty is handled, but I wouldn't increase it. This game is for casuals and difficulty is at an appropriate level for them. All I'd do is increase the AI but lower the damage. Anyone who wants to self "challenge" themselves with 3 hearts can have at it. But the audience this series was made for doesn't want to be overly challenged and as such, when it comes to combat, they should be able to beat it without too much trouble.

If we alienate the audience this series is made for, it will die.
*very Important edit: i shouldnt have use "you" or your name specifically, but instead said "gamers like you". so sorry, it wasnt meant to single you out, but to explain that gamers with opinions about the franchise like you have a far from being right, your generation just joined the series during the wrong era and is why you think the way you do!, with that said, here is my original reply, unchanged.*

Im sick of hearing this comment from you. you labeling Zelda as a casual game in an insult to us who have been there since the beginning. Just cuz you join the franchise in a KID FRIENDLY era, does not give you any right, nor credibility to call this a casual game, the only reason it seems this way to you is cuz you joined late, your a kid, and have admitted numerous time that you dislike playing games that are challenging! you even said ALttP was a bad game cuz you actually had to explore and *gasp* think in order to complete something within the game. You sir are in the wrong franchise if you looking for a casual game! yes your right games like WW, TP, and SS, are extremely easy, and its cuz of people like you who complain about everything they put in a game that makes you think or take more than 30 seconds to figure it out, that they are making Horrible and un-challenging games.

so stop telling people if they are looking for a challenge to quit playin Zelda, cuz the ones of us who are upset at the lack of challenge are the true core fans that can fondly remember when a Zelda game gave them a challenge, and we want it back, we deserve it. its not fair to us that they are alienating they oldest and truest fans for these newbs who want the game to play for you. You said so yourself all you wanna do is play the main story line.... well all i have to say to you about that is that YOU are playing the wrong game! Cuz exploration, and finding things that you dont need, and secret side quest, that is what Zelda was based on. and if Nintendo were to listen to what YOU think a Zelda game is, the series will Die, and not even the hardest core of fans would give up on the franchise cuz they decided to cater to people like you instead of their real fans who praise them for the old days and the challenges they presented, instead of say the old games suck cuz you had to think, like players like you think!

sorry dude, but ive been wanting to say that for a LONG time, and its only text so yeah is reads as rude and that im just nailing you to the cross, but i mean to be telling you this in the most respectful and informative way! so im hoping you dont come at me with some rude "before you throw a hissy fit" comment again.
 
Last edited:

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Im sick of hearing this comment from you. you labeling Zelda as a casual game in an insult to us who have been there since the beginning.

How the HELL is that an insult? Do you consider yourself so "elite" at video games, that the idea of playing a casual game offends you? What are you doing with Nintendo then?

Just cuz you join the franchise in a KID FRIENDLY era, does not give you any right, nor credibility to call this a casual game, the only reason it seems this way to you is cuz you joined late, your a kid, and have admitted numerous time that you dislike playing games that are challenging!

If you want to call me a kid, I strongly suggest you at least say it a way that doesn't make you look like a 13 year old who has just discovered the internet. I hate to stoop down to this level. Really, I do. I can normally take an insult, but what I can't handle is hypocrisy. If you can't type out your comment maturely, then getting called a "kid" by you is about as asinine as being called a kid by a grade school child. If you want to play the "I'm an adult" card, I suggest you bloody well act like one.

Next is the fact you have to stoop so low as to insult me rather than hold a polite intellectual discussion on your disagreement. I can handle that. It's the internet. What I can't handle is that you stoop so low after claiming that my comment is "an insult". There's nothing insulting about the series being for casuals. Yes, the original four games were hard...but that was in a time when ALL GAMES were hard. That time is over and the series is clearly directed at casual gamers now. Why that insults you is beyond me, but I can only assume that you view yourself as some mighty gaming prodigy above everyone else and the idea of "lowering yourself" and playing some casual series is just too much for your ego to handle. =/

you even said ALttP was a bad game cuz you actually had to explore and *gasp* think in order to complete something within the game.

Explore? Yes. Think? No.

You sir are in the wrong franchise if you looking for a casual game!

Because this is some serious hardcore **** right here.

13.jpg


YoungLink.gif


waves.jpg

yes your right games like WW, TP, and SS, are extremely easy,

Every game after LA is extremely easy. Time to wake up.

so stop telling people if they are looking for a challenge to quit playin Zelda, cuz the ones of us who are upset at the lack of challenge are the true core fans that can fondly remember when a Zelda game gave them a challenge, and we want it back, we deserve it.

Here's some more of your hypocrisy...you claim I complain about everything...and here you give more evidence that it is you, in fact, who complains over everything they do. You deserve nothing. You cling to something to series hasn't had...in 20 years. Get...the hell...over it. If you aren't a fan of the easy Zelda games, then you stopped being a fan nearly 15 years ago when OoT was released. Am I happy that the games are easy? No. But unlike you, I actually care about the series and can separate my own wants and needs with what's best for the series. If they made Zelda hard again, they would only alienate their consumers and the series would die. I don't want that. And easiness is a small sacrifice to make for the sake of the series survival.

its not fair to us that they are alienating they oldest and truest fans for these newbs who want the game to play for you.

OK, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt before...but no, you're obvious a self absorbed brat with an ego too large for you to retain. Again, if you want to make yourself sound like a long time fan and adult, I suggest you stop typing like a child. It doesn't help your case and makes you look like a complete wannabe.

You said so yourself all you wanna do is play the main story line.... well all i have to say to you about that is that YOU are playing the wrong game!

Unlike you, I can handle the fact my needs are a minority. Ideally, I'd like a game to focus only on a huge main quest and get rid of the sidequests....but I realize that this would also alienate their consumer as well. So I deal with it. It's a small sacrifice for the greater good. You and I are both minorities. I can accept that. It isn't really a choice either. It's not our choice whether we follow our selfish desires or let the series prosper. It's Nintendo's. And as a business, Nintendo has chosen to appeal to the majority so they can profit and the series can prosper.

You can't change anything. You three options.

1) You can accept that Nintendo has been a family casual based company for 17 years and enjoy the series for what it is.

2) You can accept that Nintendo has been a family casual based company for 17 years and move on to one of the many series that caters to what you want, thus pleasing yourself and allowing the franchise to survive.

3) You can sit here and pout like an upset 5 year old who feels the world should revolve around him.

sorry dude, but ive been wanting to say that for a LONG time, and its only text so yeah is reads as rude and that im just nailing you to the cross, but i mean to be telling you this in the most respectful and informative way! so im hoping you dont come at me with some rude "before you throw a hissy fit" comment again.

If that's what you consider respectful, then you have problems. In fact, I call bull. If you really had an issue with me, you could have contacted me personally. But now it's everyone's business and all you've done is spread your pitiful teenage where it doesn't belong.
 

The Jade Fist

Kung Fu Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
*very Important edit: i shouldnt have use "you" or your name specifically, but instead said "gamers like you". so sorry, it wasnt meant to single you out, but to explain that gamers with opinions about the franchise like you have a far from being right, your generation just joined the series during the wrong era and is why you think the way you do!, with that said, here is my original reply, unchanged.*

Im sick of hearing this comment from you. you labeling Zelda as a casual game in an insult to us who have been there since the beginning. Just cuz you join the franchise in a KID FRIENDLY era, does not give you any right, nor credibility to call this a casual game, the only reason it seems this way to you is cuz you joined late, your a kid, and have admitted numerous time that you dislike playing games that are challenging! you even said ALttP was a bad game cuz you actually had to explore and *gasp* think in order to complete something within the game. You sir are in the wrong franchise if you looking for a casual game! yes your right games like WW, TP, and SS, are extremely easy, and its cuz of people like you who complain about everything they put in a game that makes you think or take more than 30 seconds to figure it out, that they are making Horrible and un-challenging games.

so stop telling people if they are looking for a challenge to quit playin Zelda, cuz the ones of us who are upset at the lack of challenge are the true core fans that can fondly remember when a Zelda game gave them a challenge, and we want it back, we deserve it. its not fair to us that they are alienating they oldest and truest fans for these newbs who want the game to play for you. You said so yourself all you wanna do is play the main story line.... well all i have to say to you about that is that YOU are playing the wrong game! Cuz exploration, and finding things that you dont need, and secret side quest, that is what Zelda was based on. and if Nintendo were to listen to what YOU think a Zelda game is, the series will Die, and not even the hardest core of fans would give up on the franchise cuz they decided to cater to people like you instead of their real fans who praise them for the old days and the challenges they presented, instead of say the old games suck cuz you had to think, like players like you think!

sorry dude, but ive been wanting to say that for a LONG time, and its only text so yeah is reads as rude and that im just nailing you to the cross, but i mean to be telling you this in the most respectful and informative way! so im hoping you dont come at me with some rude "before you throw a hissy fit" comment again.

We've bought and paid for the games longer, we've seen the changes, and have the right to dislike trends.

And while every one is entilted to their opinion of what they want out of the game, why it bothers me that some one like darklink is so abhorrently anti everything good in the series, is that we what want a game offers can't be both ways. If what some one like him wants from zelda comes to pass, then the series will be even further away from what made it great, until eventually it'll become hardly worth playing any more.

And Xyphon, you're correct in that Nintendo may has been at this for a long time. But companies get complacent and arrogant after bouts of success. They change 3 things in a game's sequel and think change A was good, even though it was bad, when change C is what made it good, but was thrown out. Sales don't tell them, what aspects were good or bad, I wish it did.

Nintendo as also had this thing of doing their own thing, but that their own thing has changed after the snes years. That was to bring to the market games people want to play, games that aren't shovel ware. But the Wii library was littered with shovel ware.

They have no bloody clue how to handle online.

They keep trying to revinent the controller every time new hardware is released to the point that, even Super Mario Bros U can't even co op normally with 1 person using the Pad and another using a normal wii mote, but they'll allow you to do that stupid assist mode with the pad only. They have like 4 different controller set ups for the wii U that are all very different.

They released 2 consoles in a row that had next to 0 launch titles worth picking up.

Nintendo has lost their edge, and their understanding of the market as a whole.

And have suffered straight losses the past 2 years, last year was a billion dollar loss.

So maybe they should stop doing what ever the hell they want, and start doing what ever the hell WE want. After all WE are the ones who pay them.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Eh, the oracles and LA have about the same difficulty, in fact the Oracles might be harder.

OoS maybe...but OoA? Well at least in terms of combat, I'd say that's a lot easier. In terms of puzzle, I'll concede...but that's sorta where the newer Zelda games trump the classics.

@The Jade Fist

Eh, "good" is in the eye of the beholder. Some consider current Zelda bad, but I feel that the recent titles have been among the series best. Do I still wish they'd change some things? Yeah...but I'm content with what I have right now.
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
Hey, guys, calm down. This thread is about DIFFICULTY in the serious, not Nintendo's consoles eating butt ;)

Now, I'll be honest here. Dark Souls, which plays on ridiculous difficulty, has sold (to date) Dark Souls - PlayStation 3 - VGChartz Dark Souls - Xbox 360 - VGChartz Dark Souls sells 2.3 million units, PC version sales revealed - Gamechup | Video Game News, Reviews, Features, Guides

2.3 million or so units. That's merely for the attraction of difficulty. Are you going to tell me 2.3 million sales - which is around 60% of Skyward Sword's total sales - is inconsequential and doesn't matter? If so, I really beg to differ. Difficulty can increase sales, and there are proper ways to go about difficulty just like there are proper ways to sell meat OTC. :)
 

The Jade Fist

Kung Fu Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
But YOU act like YOU represent the entire gaming community. Again, Nintendo knows a LOT MORE than YOU about what people want. Hindsight is 20:20, of course you can point out everything they've done wrong now.

Also, I found Super Mario Bros U co op to be extremely fun, entertaining, and exactly how a 2D platformer Co Op should be.
So forcing both players to have wiimotes instead of being ok with a single wiimote and the game pad is how the co op should be?
2 consoles in a row that had zero launch titles. Okay, sure. But they fixed the 3DS. The 3DS has over 30 million sales in a little over two years! That's pretty ****ing good. In fact, that's amazing.
But I'm sure YOU could have designed a console that sold better, right?
As a matter of fact yes, Nintendo has been thru how many console releases? And they :kirby: up twice in a row? They've had the market experience to know a hell of alot better then to do what they did.
If they just sat down and said hey, how about we get our fans to make EVERYTHING, then Nintendo would be ****, guaranteed. Who knows what abomination the PEOPLE would have come up with for a console. Also, there's 7 billion people! Yep, pretty easy to get ideas from 7 billion.
And you're right, fan art can be pretty horrible, but some of it shines above even the source material( go play Super Mario Bros X for example). Its not about fans make bad things, its about the individuals involved and the mindset involved.
You may be able to say a couple things that would improve their company and garner more sales. But how many ideas do you think are bad ideas? After they release something you can say "this is what they SHOULD have done", but if they listened to every single person pre-release, it would be a disaster.
Again, they've released so many consoles at this point, they just assumed their name was enough to sell it, but they never just let their logo sell things before. There was was almost no marketing what so ever, I can rightfully look at the WII and criticize them. I don't have to be a console maker to tell you what they did wrong, I was there for the past 26 years of nintendo, I've seen the Sega rise and fall, I've seen the birth of the playstation, I've see the birth of the xbox, I've seen ads for the jaguar, neo geo, trubo graphics, and virtual boys that never hit stores near me. Its about remembering history, and seeing how the world has changed.
I hope you realize how big your ego has to be to assume you know more than Nintendo about how to make a successful console. I'm sure your console is going to be a screaming success.

So no its not having a huge ego, for assailing the competence of the mighty nintendo, its history. Sony learned from last gen they can't sell a luanch console at 600 dollars, so they're selling at 399 this time around. Microsoft learned from pre orders not happening that you can only piss the consumer off so far, before they don't want to buy your stuff. I don't want Nintendo to fail, I want them to see great success, and I want them to not screw up any more so that they can start seeing profits again, and make good games and consoles and so on. It might be necessary for them to falter to understand what they've done wrong, but I can still hope they have they understand and correct problems before they become bigger problems.


I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can here. But any one can see they made alot of mistakes recently. And I hope they rectify them.

Is it arrogant of me to to critique them? In that case its arrogant of any one who critques movies or games or any product really, unless they themselves make them.

After all RCA knows more about how that TV with faulty power unit behind me works, and It'd be arrogant of me to critique the product for releasing with such a faulty unit even though over half the people with the same power unit also experienced problems with it breaking down within 3 years.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
2.3 million or so units. That's merely for the attraction of difficulty. Are you going to tell me 2.3 million sales - which is around 60% of Skyward Sword's total sales - is inconsequential and doesn't matter? If so, I really beg to differ. Difficulty can increase sales, and there are proper ways to go about difficulty just like there are proper ways to sell meat OTC. :)

I generally don't like comparing series between different franchises...but either way, 2.3m would be terrible by Zelda standards.

I mean look at Mario Kart Wii...now to me, THAT wasn't "hardcore" enough. In fact, it felt casual enough to appease to Angry Birds non-gamers. Still...33m...as much as I hate that game, I have to admit Nintendo made the right choice. And I could totally turn this around and say "Well lack of difficulty increases sales...look at Mario Kart Wii!"
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
I generally don't like comparing series between different franchises...but either way, 2.3m would be terrible by Zelda standards.

I mean look at Mario Kart Wii...now to me, THAT wasn't "hardcore" enough. In fact, it felt casual enough to appease to Angry Birds non-gamers. Still...33m...as much as I hate that game, I have to admit Nintendo made the right choice. And I could totally turn this around and say "Well lack of difficulty increases sales...look at Mario Kart Wii!"
Mario is Mario. He sells because brand name. Zelda, however...I have no idea what exactly influences Zelda sales (besides "realism" evidenced by OoT and TP's sales).
 

The Jade Fist

Kung Fu Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
1. The gamepad has a different function.
2. I never asked if you could release the console better than them, I asked if you could MAKE one. Could you DESIGN a console that sold better than the 3DS? They get no credit for successes, which is why you people say they don't know what they are doing, even though they are a company worth 85 billion dollars.
3. My point is you act as if you made a Zelda game, it would sell better than Nintendo's.
4. So now you're implying you could design a console that sells better than the WII? Oh boy.
Of course they have made mistakes, but you act like your company is better and you wouldn't have made mistakes.

Come on man.
That was supposed to say Wii U on the number 4.

The 3ds is a good console I never said it was bad.

At co op play on the wii u, why must the pad forcibly have a different function, is it unreasonable to want to be able to co op normally using it? I fail to see why.

If i were to make a console, I would have surely researched what has succeeded and failed, or at the very least struggled. Like the ps3, the wii u is going to have that issue on 3rd party except even more so because no only is it harder to develop for its weaker by alot. Probably I would developed several systems at varying powers, but waited for sony/ microsoft to show their hands before deciding what to put into production. If you wanna go first you gota go first with a show of force, and they were clearly not prepared to do that, so it would have been wise to wait.

Is Nintendo doomed as of this point, I don't think so. Do I think they really ought to be concerned about not making money, yes. The wii u has been nothing but red ink.

They should have learned not only from other consoles they've released and done right, what they did wrong on the 3ds. The 3ds is coming back now because there is a reason to buy it, software sells the consoles more then anything. They weren't ready for the wii u, and they should have known it.

So, Come on man.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom