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How would you handle Zelda as a protagonist?

Dio

~ It's me, Dio!~
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Absolute unit
Yeah could work quite well. She could be the protagonist in a game between OOT and WW since that was the era without a hero. Im not sure if there was actually no hero or if his deeds simply weren't recorded but that might be a place to put her game if they are gonna do one.

I'd imagine being such a recognisable character she would often Don the Sheik look when going about business and fight in a ninja style which could make a change from links typical sword and shield.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Gender
man
I'm not sure if you're serious about the "dog-whistle" but it sounds like you're trying to get some kind of action taken against an idea with which you don't agree? Is that a fair assessment? Karl Marx did exist although I hesitate to reference that with a Wikipedia article. His ideas are pervasive in some circles and if you don't believe that people use immutable characteristics to divide people then...I won't push it.
People use "cultural Marxists" as a replacement for "Jews" often: especially Nazis. I assume this is not what you intend; I hope this is not what you intend. It is not that I disagree with the fact that there are such thing as cultural Marxists, it is that there are no such thing as cultural Marxists and I wish people would stop being scared of people that don't exist.

If you've read Marx, the primary focus is difference in economic class, not immutable characteristics, and it is the post-modernists that accurately point out that individual experience is often influenced by identity. This is why pomo-nomos are often considered the enemy.

Either way, I prefer to not divide people based on immutable characteristics as that leads to things like affirmative action etc. which I am opposed to. This philosophy also applies to gender. And it also applies to the gender of the protagonist of a Zelda game.

You don't have to agree that many people intentionally or unintentionally disagree with the idea that men and women are different, that is only my observation, and that is why I have the opinions that I do regarding Zelda merely replacing Link as the protagonist of a Zelda game. I think it does her femininity a disservice to treat her as if she's male. I respect your assertion that gender doesn't matter, and I heartily and respectfully disagree with it. If you've read Peterson, you understand why.
Peterson (and I use him because he reintroduced the term "cultural marxist" into the discourse) argues that there is a 10% non-overlap regarding the commonality of "adventurous" vs. "nurturing" traits on either side of the spectrum (based on the OCEAN model). Gender matters 10%, 20% if we really care, in the difference between the protagonist of the Zelda series. Erikson's model of identity development doesn't address gender at all; it is entirely cultural.

To put a finer point on one issue you brought up, the anthropological trope that men are the adventures comes from the fact that men have traditionally taken roles that involved more danger (as adventure involves danger) likely due to the fact that they are more likely to be physically capable to meet the danger, and due in part to the fact that society can survive with fewer men but will decline with fewer women. I'm not saying that Zelda can't simply replace Link as the hero, I'm saying that I PREFER the traditional legend because I believe it more closely reflects reality and that makes it accessible and relatable.
I don't know which I prefer because I have not had a game with Zelda as the lead. And for women, I imagine they would be able to relate to a female protagonist more than a male assuming gender is as big a deal as you say. I continue to believe that gender doesn't matter and so it doesn't matter who is the lead of the series. An argument I could get behind is that Zelda as the protagonist detracts from her character. But Zelda's gender shouldn't impact whether or not she is a lead character or not.

Cuz women can go on adventures too.

And the boob armor is a joke, a reference to the fact that many current forms of media put a woman in the traditional role of a man with no respect toward her femininity except the physical secondary sex characteristics. I would hope Nintendo doesn't go that route.
So you'd be ok with Zelda in a traditionally male role as long as she is not oversexualized and as long as she has kids? As long as she likes flowers? What is femininity for you? Because Joan of Arc is femininity for me.
 

The Dashing Darknut

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I think it does her femininity a disservice to treat her as if she's male. I respect your assertion that gender doesn't matter, and I heartily and respectfully disagree with it. If you've read Peterson, you understand why.
I don’t get this. She’s not treated like she’s a male, she’s just the main protagonist. She’s the one having the adventure. How does that make her look treated as if she’s a man? Now if they decided to randomly make Link a girl, I could understand that and I’d find it weird and unnecessary, but what’s wrong with Zelda, who is a girl?
To put a finer point on one issue you brought up, the anthropological trope that men are the adventures comes from the fact that men have traditionally taken roles that involved more danger (as adventure involves danger) likely due to the fact that they are more likely to be physically capable to meet the danger, and due in part to the fact that society can survive with fewer men but will decline with fewer women. I'm not saying that Zelda can't simply replace Link as the hero, I'm saying that I PREFER the traditional legend because I believe it more closely reflects reality and that makes it accessible and relatable.
What about video game characters like Samus Aran? She’s may be a female, but she’s still a hero like any other male hero would be. She’s still physically capable of meeting the danger. There’s also female protagonists that go and big adventures too. What’s wrong with a new change just because of the fact that a character is more masculine or feminine? There are guys as well who feel more like girls and vice versa.
And the boob armor is a joke, a reference to the fact that many current forms of media put a woman in the traditional role of a man with no respect toward her femininity except the physical secondary sex characteristics.
Respect? They’re just going a different route. There are also females in media who want to take on roles like the males do. I don’t understand why this is an issue
 

Hyrulian Hero

Zelda Informer Codger
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Joan of Arc who never even fought in battle or killed an enemy? Joan of Arc who was specifically the hero because of her (perceived) virginity? Yes, her innocence emboldened men, men who were living out their hero's journey which is partly (some would say fully) prompted by the need to rescue that which is pure and threatened. This is part of what makes femininity (not flowers, that comment and assuming me to be an antisemite make me think you don't take this in good faith) and seems like it would be difficult to articulate through any form of media.

In Peterson's first book, Maps of Meaning, he writes as a clinical psychologist about the natures of the male and female. I think (opinion) he touched on a solid truth in personifying the masculine as active and the feminine as inert. The seed being worthless without the nourishing soil and the soil also inactive without the seed to nourish. I also haven't seen him discuss adventure in the context of the Big 5, would you mind citing that for me?

Samus, Ripley, Mulan, they're all great examples of exceptions to the rule. Ripley especially was endearing because of her innocence while Samus has a field-leveling suit and Mulan is specifically praised because she was a woman. The only reason she was interesting was because she broke convention. A spin-off featuring Zelda in that way would make complete sense, but again, I would prefer it not be a Legend of Zelda game.

As for Marx, I confess to not having read him, merely to being familiar with the basics of his philosophy as it pertains to my life. His philosophy of course hinges on the inequity between social classes, which is why the modifier "cultural" is used, indicating that the doctrine is that of the Marxist paradigm of class struggle but as applied to the broader culture. I'm not accusing you of pitting people against each other based on immutable characteristics (it sounds like maybe that's what you were getting from me), I'm saying that it's become a worldview for some people.

Anyway, this seems to have gotten into the weeds a bit and I feel like I'm cluttering a thread that's about Zelda as a protagonist, not about the nature of the sexes. I'd be down to do some pming about it but I won't clutter it any further, I've said my piece.
 
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men who were living out their hero's journey which is partly (some would say fully) prompted by the need to rescue that which is pure and threatened.
People don't "live out" hero's journeys (least of all men), they live to make babies and die. Mythologically, they need to find purpose and that purpose is in the protection (or rescuing) of the "pure" from the dragon, but the dragon was raised in the desert and his people are starving and he was raised by witches and he just wants some goddamn wind...and the "pure" is a descendant of the frikin Mother goddess and she deserves more respect than being essentially a damsel for almost every game she appears in and should, at some point, be the protagonist of the series that is named after her. And the hero is a completely silent self-insert who shouldn't be forced to be a character-less protagonist for every game (except Wind Waker where he has an insane amount of character).

In Peterson's first book, Maps of Meaning, he writes as a clinical psychologist about the natures of the male and female. I think (opinion) he touched on a solid truth in personifying the masculine as active and the feminine as inert. The seed being worthless without the nourishing soil and the soil also inactive without the seed to nourish. I also haven't seen him discuss adventure in the context of the Big 5, would you mind citing that for me?
My issue with the seed and soil metaphor is that soil is not alive. Soil cannot be the protagonist of a game series. And yet soil is often very much alive and very much a person and I would like my game to be about soil for once in the 30-year series.

As for Marx, I confess to not having read him, merely to being familiar with the basics of his philosophy as it pertains to my life. His philosophy of course hinges on the inequity between social classes, which is why the modifier "cultural" is used, indicating that the doctrine is that of the Marxist paradigm of class struggle but as applied to the broader culture. I'm not accusing you of pitting people against each other based on immutable characteristics (it sounds like maybe that's what you were getting from me), I'm saying that it's become a worldview for some people.
Not in bad faith and not expecting a response, but I've argued with a lot of Nazis who use "cultural Marxists" as a dog-whistle for Jews so I sometimes forget that JBP popularized it with non-Nazis; I'm sorry for assuming.

Tying this back to Zelda...she should be playable in the underground sections of BotW 2, I've said my piece.
 

Boo

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Yes please. Everyone is talking about Zelda being Hylia's reincarnation and how powerful she is. We could see her trying to "awaken" her power in many games. But how powerful is she? We'll never know until she's playable
 

mαrkαsscoρ

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despite me not having played it, I think spirit tracks took some good steps into getting Zelda more involved with the game's plot, which makes it more of a shame when they backpedaled on it for the following games

had they not, maybe we already would've seen her playable in some way by now, granted I just don't believe they'd want to take the focus away from Link as the main character so making Zelda a side thing is all I can see them do
 

ZeldaFanatic64

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I don't know if it would work. Yes, the game is named after her, but it's clear that Link is the protagonist. But if it's similar to Spirit Tracks where you get to temporarily play as her to solve puzzles, then I wouldn't mind.
 

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