General Zelda How Evil Should Villains Be?

[DuelMark]

There are two terms on TV tropes when it comes to villains. Both qualify as "ymmv" your mileage may vary. Meaning it all depends on how the viewer sees the villain.

Complete Monster: A villain who has no redeeming qualities at all, all of his actions are treated seriously and are unable to show any level of regret for their actions.

Moral Event Horizon: A character goes entirely into the realm of irredeemable. Even if they don't go into the route of Complete Monster, they do something so awful that the viewers, and the characters, see them incapable of ever being one of the good guys. (Sometimes this happens though)

Why do I bring this up? If you were to go to TV Tropes, you'd find only two villains from The Legend of Zelda qualify as Complete Monsters. Those being Majora and Yuga (To avoid spoilers, mostly for A Link Between Worlds, I won't post why they qualify). Many villains in the series also go into the route of Moral Event Horizon, but, again, avoiding spoilers.

We always talk about villains, but one thing I never see people discuss is how evil do we want them to be.

Do you want to see more grey villains, villains capable of reforming, villains who are well-intentioned, or villains whose motives and actions make them seen as incapable of ever being forgivable?

 

[Salem]

I want villains that are as evil as possible for a game rated E for everyone.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

depend on the villain role is. Like ganon could play two different role, Hell Bent on destruction or some kind of backstory on what he has against Hyrule, and im not just sayin wanting the trifoce

Ive had a theory about how Dark Link came to be, i think he was born of the impure things with in Link and was created out of the darkness that normal ol Link once possessed, now Link being all hero like never doing anything Mischievous. And in the confusion of finding out who dark Link in, he tended to be more aggressive, and was determined to be able to defeat the one who created him with no explanation. But comes to help link when someone else is close to killing link, as if to say "if anyone kills him its me" unless ganon created him, he was born of Link, So dark link will stop at nothing to get his revenge!

 

[Mask-Salesman]

As evil as it gets. Like OoT Ganondorf, not TWW Ganondorf. He should pursuit his goals at any cost!

 

[r2d93]

Either way works for me as long as it's one or the other, not in between. Either be a sort of anti-hero like WW Ganondorf or be a total warped monster.

However, for the totally evil monster villains, motives matter to me. For example:
ALBW SPOILERS

I'm getting sick of motives like Yuga's where he does all this evil stuff to "make the world more beautiful." That crap makes no sense to me. If you're going to have a totally messed up villain who does terrible things, I'd prefer he/she does them either because they want the world to fall apart at the seams, or they just like doing messed up stuff.

Also, the "main villain trying to revive his/her master" motive is getting old too

 

[A Link In Time]

There are only two Zelda villains that can be classified as Complete Monsters? With the exception of his Wind Waker incarnation, Ganondorf has been a predictable evil doer with no remorse for those weaker than him and a desire to usurp Hyrule's throne.

While I'm not familiar with TV Tropes myself and thus am not able to provide an appropriate term, I want to see more "morally grey" villains that see the error of their ways and try to repent for their wrongdoings. Reminiscing over Spiderman recently due to the release of The Amazing Spiderman 2, I refer to the example of Doctor Octopus from Sam Raimi's Spiderman 2. Villains like this usually have a tragic past leading them to commit horrible acts believing there is no hope left in the world. After a climactic confrontation, however, they realize what was wrong with their worldview. A conversion of this nature would add greater variety to the predictable Zelda villain template.

 

[Ocarina_Player]

Gannon should always be a complete monster, since he is supposed to be the embodiment of Demise's hatred for the Hero. But having secondary villains that aren't as evil I think adds variety and depth to the story. Take the Skull Kid and Majora. Yeah the Skull Kid was a little b*stard but his story I felt was one of the saddest and it made me really want to beat Majora that much more in order to save him from the complete monster that was Majora's Mask.

 

[Dragoncat]

I feel that the villain with a tragic past that makes you feel sorry for them, although an overused cliche, is more believable than the complete monster. Because in real life, people do everything for a reason. Even Hitler, who's the closest to the complete monster in real life I can think of, had his reasons. He had had problems with jewish people, he felt they were getting all the jobs etc etc. Doesn't make what he did right, but that's an example. This is kind of comparable to WW Ganondorf. His past was a bit tragic and you could see why he was doing what he was doing.

But as long as they have a motive and they're not just evil for the heck of it, I'm fine with them.

 

[Ganondork]

I have wanted a Zelda villain with a moral event horizon for quite some time. But I'm kind of tired of the, "Feel bad for me because I had a bad life," kind of villain. I'd much rather see Link as a tragic hero than there being a tragic villain. I don't want this to be evident in Ganon either; he is established enough. I want this moral event horizon guy to be an entirely new character.

The concepts of "Good" and "Bad" are very gray, leaving them up for interpretation. Going off of Dragoncat's comparison, Hitler thought what he was doing was right. He knew it was horrible, but he thought it was for the greater good. This is what I want from a Zelda villain. I want him to be the liberator that his people desire. The one that they prophecized. He seems evil to us, as he is leading a mass genocide against the people who turned against him, but his people revere him greatly.

This would mean that a new race, or ethnicity of a preexisting group would have to be created. They could delve into the backstory of this group. Perhaps they were a great empire that fell at the hands of the Hylians? The possibilities are endless, as long as they lead to the anger of this villain. I don't want there to be any pity from the player, though. Pity is shallow. We need to see a self-righteous man, a charismatic man, an idealistic man who will see to it that all of Hyrule is crushed under his thumb.

So of course Link and the villain will be natural enemies. And Link will hate him, as the villain threatens everything he loves. But he will see himself within the eyes of this villain. They strive for the same goal - peace - but have different methods of achieving it. And Link can't help but grow fearful of what he could become. He questions the cyclical struggle for the Triforce, and his place in this cycle. But the villain is sure of himself; he knows that he is the hero of this story.

The defining moment, when good meets evil, will be not only when he faces this villain, but also when he confronts his fears. This man, who mirrors his own desires, is his greatest enemy, because Link's enemy is himself. That is what I want from a Zelda villain.

 

[Dragoncat]

That would be epic...even more so if you throw in a few characters who follow him not because they agree with him, but because they're afraid of what he'll do to them and their loved ones if they don't. Pretty sure there were some nazis who were that way. I remember learning about the holocaust in school and somebody actually tried to assassinate Hitler, and if I remember correctly, he killed every one of his followers who were there at the time. He ruled by fear and intimidation. People just knew they would end up like the jews that were getting brutally murdered if they showed any sign of opposing him.

So...maybe there's a boss who you defeat in battle, and they switch sides. Or just random NPCs.

 

[Ganondork]

Pretty sure there were some nazis who were that way.

Yes, this is true. Hitler forced many German and Austrian officers who served in World War I to come out of retirement and work under him. Hitler really fancied Ratzel's concept of Lebensraum, so poor Austria was pulled into it. Many officers were reluctant to, especially Austrian ones, but acquiesced for the safety of themselves and their families.

I remember learning about the holocaust in school and somebody actually tried to assassinate Hitler, and if I remember correctly, he killed every one of his followers who were there at the time.

You're referring to the 20 July plot. It was a bomb in a briefcase that detonated prematurely, and killed three officers in the room. Hitler only suffered a perforated eardrum.

People just knew they would end up like the jews that were getting brutally murdered if they showed any sign of opposing him.

A lot of people actually didn't know what happened to the Jews in the concentration camps. The Soviets were disgusted when they found out, and many Americans didn't believe the stories until troops came back with stories. If you've ever seen, "The Boy In the Striped Pajamas," you'll remember that even the officer's wife didn't know that they were burning the bodies of the Jews after killing them. A lot of it was under wraps to withhold further civilian outcry.

---

I would, however, like the idea of reluctant followers. Reminds me somewhat of Nabooru in Ocarina of Time. I wouldn't want a reversal on the bosses, but rather see them in their final moments lament about their fates. It would further propel Link down the road of questioning his part in this journey. This game would be more internal for Link as a character, so a lot of decisions on the characterization side would have to aid Link's contemplations.

I would also enjoy seeing there be a sidequest in which civilians on the villain's side sabotage a shipment of weapons, or something to that effect. Whether or not you completed the sidequest could affect the outcome of the final dungeon, as the guards would most likely be armed differently. It could be a really cool easter egg to include.

 

[Justac00lguy]

I'm a big advocate of a darker Zelda title and this is a reason why I'm a huge fan of both Twilight Princess and Majora's Mask, hell, they're my two favourite games in the series. I love a darker tone, darker themes in both the story and characters and as such I'd love to see a villain be literally the embodiment of evil, and no that is not you, Demise.

I want a main villain that is just outright ruthless and evil down to their very core. Ganondorf may have such traits but there is aspects of him that make him quite a noble villain sometimes (if I can even use such words together, lol). I thoroughly analysed Ganondorf in a recent thread of mine. Basically I just outlined why he became to be the bane of Hyrule and what essentially made him be this way. Because in actual in actual fact, I don't believe he is truly evil in any way; he is just born with a lust for power and dominance. He was born a king and desired more power meaning that he wanted to Triforce. And the events after that are rather sad for him as he somehow becomes bound to this connection of three: Link, Zelda, and himself. He is stuck within the continual loop of resurrections, imprionsments, defeats etc. Anyway, enough about Ganondorf, but what I'm saying is that I want a flat out evil person. Someone who wants to just cause complete destruction. Instead of going about his tactics subtly, said villain should just go all out.

A big factor that plays into lessening the threat of a villain, in my eyes anyway, is their obsession with capturing [Princess] Zelda; it almost shows a weakness in them. How about they don't care for the Princess? How about they actually try to kill her? It's that kind unforgiving evil that I'd love to see: a thirst for bloodshed. Of course if this is to be achieved then it means we'll see a much darker game than ever before and be absolutely fine with that; however I'm sure not everyone shares the same view. Another thing is them being ever present and not acting cowardly. We see a lot of villain obscurity, getting others to do their dirty work. It's only at the end of the game do they ever seem strong. I'm not saying they can't remain a mystery, but I'd like for them to not come off as cowardly sometimes. Zant for example, oh and I'll get into the good aspects about Zant in a minute. However, Zant in the latter section of the game came off rather weak. He doubted his own power against Link despite him overcoming him without any effort previously. After the incident in Lanayru, Zant tried to prevent Midna and Link from advancing rather than finishing them off, he broke the Mirror of Twilight and then just sat and waited hoping that they'd die on their quest. Having a large absence from a big section of the game severely lessens the villain's threat as well as making the villain look extremely weak. I'd love to see a more ruthless villain, one who flat out wants to kill Link and those who support him.

Anyway on the flip side of Zant--being his beginning stage--here he was at his strongest and arguably the strongest, most threatening, evil villain we'd ever seen before. He was mysterious, he looked quite terrifying, he was ruthless and seemed extremely powerful: effortlessly taking over Hyrule Kingdom, casting Link and Midna aside like weak children etc. It's this sort of mannerisms that make a villain truly evil in my opinion, and if Zant would have kept this attitude then he could have potentially took over the role of Ganondorf as the series' most prominent and threatening villain. Of course he flipped out and the rest is history, but the first half of the game--that kind of attitude--Is what I want to see from a villain who is truly evil.

 

[Triforce Hermit]

I want an actual evil villain. Not just someone who kidnaps or someone who throws off the balance of things. I know that TP tried to give us this, but we just got told “He went to the castle and took it over”. Yes I’m sure he killed people in the process, but hearing and seeing are two different things. I want to see the villain send a squad of minions to a village and kill everyone there. I want to have a reason to despise the villain. The only villains I have felt that with is Agahnim and Majora’s Mask. The only difference between them and the other villains is that they had more noticeable results with their deeds.
A better narrative for the villains would help too.

 

[ihateghirahim]

Here's a fun idea: How about a game with a story featuring more than one major villain! What if you have to encounter multiple villains on your way to the top, and each has their own unique motivations and goals. Some can be more grey than others. It would require more story than we've usually had, but it certainly would be worth for Zelda's progress

 

[Random Person]

I don't really care. As long as its done well, I'm good.