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How did Ganon get sealed in Lorule?

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Jan 11, 2021
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Malladus is probably an incarnation of hatred,like Ganon and Vaati, yes, especially if Demise's JP speech is any indication.
I wonder how Malladus could have invaded New Hyrule 100 years previously to ST if Ganondorf was also kicking around on the Great Sea at the same time.

FSA is a different Ganon, so it probably doesn't count since it's a different guy. BotW most likely isn't on the DT. And Ganondorf's body has round ears, which we've only seen him have in OoT, and CaC mentions when the Gerudo had round ears long ago. We've never seen Ganon's human form with pointy ears at any point in the DT. You're also forgetting the Oracles and the backstory of ALBW.
Wait if it isn't on the DT, what timeline is it on? Did you mean the CT? I agree that it's on the DT.

Difference being that Force Gems are not used in the Emblem of Hyrule in FSA.
The Triforce appears more in ST than it does in FSA.

The IW is after OoT. People start wandering into the SR, and they start becoming monsters. The seal starts to weaken and said monsters start to pour out, and the Seven Sages of that period have to seal it again to stop Ganon's army.
Wait,
Screen Shot 2021-10-08 at 5.41.53 PM.png
this is the part of ALttP manual that was retconned? It doesn't even resemble OoT.

By that logic, Zelda 1 Ganon requires another game. Ganon being revived is a big part of the Downfall Timeline.
My main point is that there are a ton of "fanfic" requirements in the splitist timeline. Multiple games that we never see need to be included for it to be accurate as is.

Daphnes is already dead in TWW. He's a spirit according to HH, and there's ingame evidence for that as well(the fact that he can just appear at will when Ganon tries to touch the full Triforce in TWW).
This should probably be its own thread, diving into the way the Triforce works. Dead people can wish on the Triforce? WHAT? How? Who? Can?

In those quotes you mention, he's literally referred to as ''some desert nomad'' and his intent is considered unknown. Does that sound like the same evil king that lead to the ruin of a kingdom to you?
This is the problem with FSA. That intuition (that writing Ganondorf off as some "desert nomad" is weird as hell) applies to the current placement. Also they named him Ganondorf, how stupid can they be? In both cases, enough time has passed that they don't think of Ganondorf as a massive conqueror.

People say that, but they base it on the fact that FSA had sages and the Master Sword as unused content, which are elements in many Zelda games.
Aonuma: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.

Aonuma: In an example with Four Swords Adventures, I was the producer on that game, so I didn’t actually put the story for that game together—that would be put together by the director of the game. And in the end on that game, as we got closer to finishing it, of course, Mr. Miyamoto then came in and upended the tea table, and we changed the story around quite a bit at the end with Four Swords Adventures. And what Mr. Miyamoto pointed out in the case of that game was that the storyline shouldn’t be something complicated that confuses the player. It should really be kind of a guideline that helps ease the player through the gameplay process and helps them understand what it is that they’re doing. So that was one example of how the gameplay was there first, and the storyline changed all the way up until the very end.

I can't find much more on this, but I think with the inclusion of the origin of the Pyramid of Power, the Trident, the addition of the Palace of the Four Sword specifically to ALttP, and the abrupt story changes Miyamoto (not a developer of the game) had on FSA, plus the fact that most of the FSA development team was also the ALttP development team, their intention was for it to be a semi-prequel. (Also yeah the maidens are the same, some bosses are the same, etc.)

MM Link ends the game on a horse, and Oracles Link begins his game on a horse. Guess the Oracles are after MM, then.
We're not gonna convince each other of this point, I'm sticking with HH.

What do you mean, no significance? It's the mark of the Triforce!
But the king doesn't know that. Otherwise, he would know that Zelda is indeed prophetic cuz she's Hylia.

We see that Ganon is already defeated though, hence the celebration at Lon Lon Ranch. We also see that this is seperate from the Child Era, as after the celebration, we see that Link is a child again and so is Zelda.
The celebration at Lon Lon Ranch is in the future right? Link and Zelda are children when future Zelda sends him back in time.

アラ あなた 左手に 「Triangle」のアザが あるのね Oh, you have a triangle birthmark on your left hand.
My Japanese is rusty and also non-existent. Isn't that bruise? Or mark? Idk if it's birthmark.

「大地と時空のことわり」を知り その勇気をもって 邪悪なるものを しりぞけたあなたは トライフォースのみちびきにより でんせつの勇者となったのです
You have the courage of knowing the “Reasons of Earth and Space-Time” and have driven away the evil one. You have become the legendary hero who is guided by the Triforce.

He doesn't become a hero until the end of the game.

Also, the Triforce spoke in ALttP as well.
He doesn't become the hero in BotW until he completes the Trial of the Sword either. That's what trials are for.

Also, you need another game of him training in foreign lands that we don't have to match LA's backstory. What it looks like, to me, is that the "training" in LA is the training in the Oracle games. Also Marin looks like Oracle Zelda, not ALttP Zelda. Also most of the Wind Fish's dream is a reality in the Oracle games.

I'd be willing to put LA back to where it was initially, between the West and East continents of Zelda 2.
 
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I wonder how Malladus could have invaded New Hyrule 100 years previously to ST if Ganondorf was also kicking around on the Great Sea at the same time.


Wait if it isn't on the DT, what timeline is it on? Did you mean the CT? I agree that it's on the DT.

I meant CT, yes.

I might reply to the rest later, but Metroid Dread came in the mail. Might be a few days or so.
 
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Sep 8, 2021
Daphnes interchangeably uses both names in TWW,

More specifically, KoRL only refers to Ganondorf three times in the game.
1. When he is speaking to Ganondorf while wishing on the triforce.
2. When he refers to Ganondorf's revival 100 years ago which is Ganon's revival in JAP dub
3. When he states Ganondorf's name in JAP which is Ganon in the English dub


Zant refers to him as Ganon in TP.

Yep! Why don't we also throw in the JAP translation for reference. In JAP he does refer to Ganondorf. Also in both translations, when Midna finally meets Ganondorf, she refers to him as Ganondorf.

Zelda 1 refers to him as both the Prince of Darkness and the Great Demon King.

Good eye, there's also a third title in Zelda I, Ganon, who can be found in the instruction manual. When I read over it there seemed to be three titles: Ganon, the powerful Prince of Darkness, evil Ganon, and Ganon. However the lack of proper pronouns lead me to believe these should all be read as Ganon.

Yes, for the sake of simplicity. The manual for ALttP says that ''Ganon'' was used as his common name before he ever transformed. ALttP refers to him as the Evil King and the Demon King

What's fascinating is the game's opening cut-scene of ALttP seems fundamentally different from the manual. We even get a visual confirmation from the in game text from Zelda and Link's uncle is different from what's shown in the manual.

BotW refers to him as the Demon King and the Great Calamity.

Don't forget about the third title in BoTW when King Rhoam mentions who is Ganon, a familiar title we've brought up before. Also, The great calamity is the event where Calamity Ganon rose, not a title. The title you're probably referring to is just "Calamity".

The reemergence of Calamity Ganon in BotW is referred to as both a return and resurrection, for example, and the description of Memory #15 says that he ''awakens''. Are you really going to try and argue that's a different thing as well?

No, I'm not here to argue, rather to learn. I never knew about the plot change between the manual and the game in ALttP SNES, nor did I know about the shadow translations in JAP. Those are very cool finds, and it happened because of you. I know things got hot, but that's why we do this. Thank you, my brother. :)
 
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I wonder how Malladus could have invaded New Hyrule 100 years previously to ST if Ganondorf was also kicking around on the Great Sea at the same time.

Why assume that only one incarnation of hatred can exist at once?

The Triforce appears more in ST than it does in FSA.

Still not a part of the emblem, though. :)

this is the part of ALttP manual that was retconned? It doesn't even resemble OoT.

The only part that was retconned here was the fact that the way to the Sacred Realm was opened ''by accident/chance''. While we don't see them with our own eyes, the dying soldier says that Ganondorf has people with him, explaining the followers/thieves from the ALttP manual, as this is very shortly before Link opens the doorway. And despite knowing that he had people with him, they're nowhere to be found when we see him in the SR. However, we know that he killed them according to the ALttP manual, so that works out.

Also, that picture is from the NoA manual, which was translated horribly. Just saying.

My main point is that there are a ton of "fanfic" requirements in the splitist timeline. Multiple games that we never see need to be included for it to be accurate as is.

There are explanations based on ingame evidence that we went over earlier.

This should probably be its own thread, diving into the way the Triforce works. Dead people can wish on the Triforce? WHAT? How? Who? Can

Who knows, but we know that they can't carry the pieces within them; Ganon loses his in both TP and Zelda 1 when he dies at the end.

This is the problem with FSA. That intuition (that writing Ganondorf off as some "desert nomad" is weird as hell) applies to the current placement. Also they named him Ganondorf, how stupid can they be? In both cases, enough time has passed that they don't think of Ganondorf as a massive conqueror.

It's not really a problem, though, as FSA is a new Ganondorf. And as for why they named him as such, remember that Ganondorf I never took over Hyrule for seven years in the CT and was stopped before he could do any real harm. No one aside from Link, Midna and Zelda appear to be aware of his involvement in the Twilight Era, either. Instead of being remembered as the demonic force that, in one way or another, brought Hyrule to eternal ruin like in the AT and DT, he died as nothing more than a footnote in Hyrule's history, as a mere criminal who tried to come up with a crazy scheme to obtain the Triforce but failed, leading to him facing justice for his crimes. The kind of guy that might make it into an issue of the evening newspaper or whatever, not as the monster that would create the most destructive, everlasting, vile legacy that the kingdom would ever see like in the other two branches. So it's not like naming someone after Hitler like it would be in the DT and AT, but naming someone after someone who may have killed another person for a quick buck or something. Not really the same weight.

Aonuma: The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline. With this one on the GameCube being a sequel to that, and taking place sometime after that.

Yeah, ALBW has been called a sequel to ALttP, as well, and yet it takes place after alot of other games between it and ALBW.

But the king doesn't know that. Otherwise, he would know that Zelda is indeed prophetic cuz she's Hylia.

Only SS Zelda is confirmed to be Hylia.

The celebration at Lon Lon Ranch is in the future right? Link and Zelda are children when future Zelda sends him back in time.

We see the celebration AFTER Zelda sends Link back. This means that the future still exists.

My Japanese is rusty and also non-existent. Isn't that bruise? Or mark? Idk if it's birthmark.

The translation is not mine. But although my Japanese is rusty too, I took a shot at it and I read it as ''birthmark'', too.

He doesn't become the hero in BotW until he completes the Trial of the Sword either. That's what trials are for.

You said that ALttP Link is Oracles Link. If that's the case, then he's already a hero at the beginning of the Oracles, as he already has become one.

I'd be willing to put LA back to where it was initially, between the West and East continents of Zelda 2.

Not only is there no evidence for that, but there's plenty of proof against it:

-Boat vs raft

-Link is training in ''foreign countries'' according to the JP manual, which isn't what happens in Zelda 2

-The boat is ripped to shreds, and yet the raft is not damaged in Zelda 2

I'd just go with the official placement of LA being a direct sequel to ALttP with the same Link. BTW, LA taking place during Zelda 2 was only a thing on an old NoA site; NoJ has never intended that placement.

What it looks like, to me, is that the "training" in LA is the training in the Oracle games. Also Marin looks like Oracle Zelda, not ALttP Zelda. Also most of the Wind Fish's dream is a reality in the Oracle games.

There's also enemies from ALttP that appear in LA but not the Oracle games, like Hinox and (this is the biggest one, storywise) Agahnim(not Agunima, who was the Level 4 boss in OoS; the official name of the boss is ''Agahnim's Shadow'', not Agunima's Shadow).

Also Marin looks like Oracle Zelda, not ALttP Zelda.

Makes sense for the Oracle games to reuse and modify existing sprites, since they use the same engine.

More specifically, KoRL only refers to Ganondorf three times in the game.
1. When he is speaking to Ganondorf while wishing on the triforce.
2. When he refers to Ganondorf's revival 100 years ago which is Ganon's revival in JAP dub
3. When he states Ganondorf's name in JAP which is Ganon in the English dub

True that KoRL does use the name Ganondorf when first telling Link about him in TWW, while he uses ''Ganon'' in the NoA version. But he and others still refer to him as ''Ganon'' quite alot in the JP version, as well. Examples:


やはり、あの不吉な雨と明けぬ夜はガノンのかけた呪いだったのですね。 やつは、この地をも暗黒の地に変えようと・・・
Of course, that ominious rain and dark night were because of Ganon's curse. He intends to turn this world into a world of darkness...

ゼルダガ ガノンノテニオチルコトハ ダンジテ フセガネバナラナイ タノンダゾ!
You must not let Zelda fall into Ganon's hands. I've entrusted you!

ガノン城は 昔・・・ 勇猛果敢な ハイラルの騎士団でさえ 落とせなかった 難攻不落の城だ ガノンの幻影に惑わされぬよう 感覚を研ぎ澄ますのだ
Long ago, Ganon's Castle... it was an impenetrable castle which could not be taken down, not even by the most courageous of Hyrule's knights, you must sharpen your senses so not to be mislead by Ganon's illusions.

So both versions of the game use the names interchangeably, even if some instances of Ganon were changed to Ganondorf and vice versa across both versions.

Yep! Why don't we also throw in the JAP translation for reference. In JAP he does refer to Ganondorf. Also in both translations, when Midna finally meets Ganondorf, she refers to him as Ganondorf.

I'll give you that. But, Possessed Zelda is called ガノン憑依ゼルダ, or Ganon's Possession: Zelda in Japanese. So he's still referred to as Ganon even before he transforms into a boar.

Good eye, there's also a third title in Zelda I, Ganon, who can be found in the instruction manual. When I read over it there seemed to be three titles: Ganon, the powerful Prince of Darkness, evil Ganon, and Ganon. However the lack of proper pronouns lead me to believe these should all be read as Ganon.

Evil is being used as a descriptor, not a part of a title. And Ganon isn't a title, just a shortened form of his full first name, Ganondorf.

What's fascinating is the game's opening cut-scene of ALttP seems fundamentally different from the manual. We even get a visual confirmation from the in game text from Zelda and Link's uncle is different from what's shown in the manual.

ALttP is a 16 bit game. It's easier to put more detail in the manual for a game like that.

Also, The great calamity is the event where Calamity Ganon rose, not a title. The title you're probably referring to is just "Calamity

I think you're probably right, although I thought that ''Great Calamity'' was used for both the appearence of Ganon in his calamity form and as a title, although he may have just been referred to without ''Great'' before it. Nevertheless, my point still stands in regards to Ganon's titles not being consistent.
 
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Why assume that only one incarnation of hatred can exist at once?
This is a very interesting idea that would fix many holes in a bunch of theories I've come up with.
Still not a part of the emblem, though. :)
Not the official emblem, but it's woven into Zelda's clothes.
Also, that picture is from the NoA manual, which was translated horribly. Just saying.
Screen Shot 2021-10-09 at 11.37.16 AM.png
Idk, this sounds cooler than the fanfic that other people entered the SR with Ganondorf in OoT. But retcons gonna retcon. Also, they really hit home the "accidental" nature of the entry.
It's not really a problem, though, as FSA is a new Ganondorf. And as for why they named him as such, remember that Ganondorf I never took over Hyrule for seven years in the CT and was stopped before he could do any real harm. No one aside from Link, Midna and Zelda appear to be aware of his involvement in the Twilight Era, either. Instead of being remembered as the demonic force that, in one way or another, brought Hyrule to eternal ruin like in the AT and DT, he died as nothing more than a footnote in Hyrule's history, as a mere criminal who tried to come up with a crazy scheme to obtain the Triforce but failed, leading to him facing justice for his crimes. The kind of guy that might make it into an issue of the evening newspaper or whatever, not as the monster that would create the most destructive, everlasting, vile legacy that the kingdom would ever see like in the other two branches. So it's not like naming someone after Hitler like it would be in the DT and AT, but naming someone after someone who may have killed another person for a quick buck or something. Not really the same weight.
Him being a new Ganondorf doesn't change the fact that he plunged the world into Twilight for multiple years and caused ravenous chaos that almost ended the kingdom, and propped up a coup of the royal family. Seems pretty Hitler to me (naw, Hitler's worse than Ganondorf). It actually would make more sense to name your kid Ganondorf in the Downfall Timeline cuz it looks like only one Maiden knows Ganondorf's real name.

Also, for the debate going on about names and stuff, ALttP gave Ganon almost all his names.Screen Shot 2021-10-09 at 11.47.32 AM.png
Ganon does equal Ganondorf does equal the King of Evil Ganon.
Yeah, ALBW has been called a sequel to ALttP, as well, and yet it takes place after alot of other games between it and ALBW.
ALttP has been called a sequel to OoT, and yet it takes place after a lot of other games.

This takes me to the givens of the timeline:
-- means takes place before
Z1 -- Z2
ALttP -- (LA)(OoS/OoA) -- ALBW -- TFH
OoT -- MM
WW -- PH -- ST (after OoT)
MC -- FS -- FSA
TP (after OoT)
SS (at the beginning)
BotW (at the end)

Other than these givens, there is no timeline. It's about organizing these givens that give us the timeline.

Only SS Zelda is confirmed to be Hylia.
But to remember the Triforce and consider it virtuous (after it led to unbelievable turmoil in the Era of Chaos), one must also remember the origin of the Temple of Time/Rauru and then must remember SS.
We see the celebration AFTER Zelda sends Link back. This means that the future still exists.
...in the same timeline. Because if Link were to Back to the Future OoT then the future would be changed. If you change the past, you change the future. But he can't have changed the past because we see the future in the ending cutscene. Which means the timeline has to be the same.
You said that ALttP Link is Oracles Link. If that's the case, then he's already a hero at the beginning of the Oracles, as he already has become one.
EXACTLY! The Oracle games don't make Link a hero, ALttP makes Link a hero. BotW Link is still a hero even if he doesn't do the Trial of the Sword. The only reason Link is referred to as a hero in the Oracle games is because he is a hero, because of ALttP.

-Boat vs raft

-Link is training in ''foreign countries'' according to the JP manual, which isn't what happens in Zelda 2

-The boat is ripped to shreds, and yet the raft is not damaged in Zelda 2

I'd just go with the official placement of LA being a direct sequel to ALttP with the same Link. BTW, LA taking place during Zelda 2 was only a thing on an old NoA site; NoJ has never intended that placement.
I don't actually believe this, but damn it I'll fight for it.
-Rafts are just sad boats. Link built a mast.
-In the Z2 manual, the king says he hid the Triforce outside the kingdom. East Hyrule (Kasuto) is a different continent.
-It's on the way back to mainland Hyrule that he sinks.

There's also enemies from ALttP that appear in LA but not the Oracle games, like Hinox and (this is the biggest one, storywise) Agahnim(not Agunima, who was the Level 4 boss in OoS; the official name of the boss is ''Agahnim's Shadow'', not Agunima's Shadow).
EXACTLY! Link's Awakening needs to take place after ALttP so that Agahnim's Shadow, Ganon's Shadow etc. can be Nightmares, but also after OoX so Facade and Angler Fish can be Nightmares. The only evidence against the Oracle placements that is reliable is Zelda's dialogue, but the overwhelming evidence to the contrary seems to make the single piece essentially null.
 

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