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Great Sea is Hyrule and TERMINA?

Cfrock

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I have seen absolute no evidence for Termina being an alternate dimension. In fact, the whole theory makes no sense to me.
Well the Majora's Mask instruction booklet immediately identifies Termina as a "parallel world" to Hyrule. We actually see Link fall through the portal into Termina and Hyrule Historia identifies Termina as a "parallel universe". There's some extremely strong evidence.

Furthermore, most of the inhabitants of Termina are dopplegangers of the inhabitants of Hyrule, yet they're different characters. The Cuccoo Lady is now Anju, Malon is now the sisters Cremia and Romani, Ingo is now one of the Gorman Brothers. Koume and Kotake appear in Termina and retain their names but their character is totally different. Instead of being Gerudo witches, they are instead just two old women who brew potions and show no signs of being evil so it seems clear they are also different people.
These dopplegangers can't exist alongside Hyrule because that would make no sense. There's also no reference or even allusion to Termina in Ocarina of Time and no reference or allusion to Hyrule in Majora's Mask. You'd think if the moon was falling, Kaepora Gaebora might have at least mentioned Hyrule being in danger of the apocolyptic destruction.

There's also Termina having a totally different mythology to Hyrule. You say that Termina is west of Hyrule in your interpretation. If that's the case then wouldn't the Giant who went east have wandered right into Hyrule? You'd think something like that would have been mentioned in Hyrule at some point.

Aside from the official confirmation from various sources that Terima is a parallel dimension, virtually everything in-game supports that.
 
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Well the Majora's Mask instruction booklet immediately identifies Termina as a "parallel world" to Hyrule. We actually see Link fall through the portal into Termina and Hyrule Historia identifies Termina as a "parallel universe". There's some extremely strong evidence.

Furthermore, most of the inhabitants of Termina are dopplegangers of the inhabitants of Hyrule, yet they're different characters. The Cuccoo Lady is now Anju, Malon is now the sisters Cremia and Romani, Ingo is now one of the Gorman Brothers. Koume and Kotake appear in Termina and retain their names but their character is totally different. Instead of being Gerudo witches, they are instead just two old women who brew potions and show no signs of being evil so it seems clear they are also different people.
These dopplegangers can't exist alongside Hyrule because that would make no sense. There's also no reference or even allusion to Termina in Ocarina of Time and no reference or allusion to Hyrule in Majora's Mask. You'd think if the moon was falling, Kaepora Gaebora might have at least mentioned Hyrule being in danger of the apocolyptic destruction.

There's also Termina having a totally different mythology to Hyrule. You say that Termina is west of Hyrule in your interpretation. If that's the case then wouldn't the Giant who went east have wandered right into Hyrule? You'd think something like that would have been mentioned in Hyrule at some point.

Aside from the official confirmation from various sources that Terima is a parallel dimension, virtually everything in-game supports that.
I don't see any evidence that Link fell through a portal. Those masks appearing was solely an artistic decision. As for the "dopplegangers", they were used because Nintendo had to re-use the graphics from Ocarina of Time. The Zelda series is filled with dopplegangers that only change along with the graphics of the game. I think Koume and Kotake are the same witches from Ocarina of Time, but I won't discuss that here.
Regarding Kaepora Gaebora and the Four Giants, I think Termina is pretty far from Hyrule, like, farther than where the giants walked. Besides, it doesn't matter, just because something is not mentioned (like Kaepora Gaebora going out of his way to say Hyrule was in danger) does not automatically mean said thing only exists in an alternate universe.
 

Cfrock

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I don't see any evidence that Link fell through a portal. Those masks appearing was solely an artistic decision.
When people develop games, they never include things that do not serve multiple purposes. Listen to any developer talk about the process of making a game for proof of this. The masks were an artistic decision, yes, but they also serve to show the moment Link falls through the portal into Termina.
Besides, it is an inarguable fact that Termina is a parallel dimension and is not connected to Hyrule physically. The only way for anyone to travel between the two is with a portal of some kind. That is what we see Link fall into at the start of Majora's Mask.

As for the "dopplegangers", they were used because Nintendo had to re-use the graphics from Ocarina of Time. The Zelda series is filled with dopplegangers that only change along with the graphics of the game.
Yes, Nintendo reused the same models so as to shorten the development time. That doesn't change the fact that all of them (except one) are completely different characters. Going back to everything having multiple purposes, reusing the character models cuts down development time and helps establish Termina as a parallel dimension to Hyrule. The mere fact that the same models are reused is a narrative device deliberately employed to let the player know Termina is a parallel to Hyrule.
As for the series being "filled" with doppelgangers, that simply isn't true. Yes, characters appear in multiple games (like Tingle), but this is always a different incarnation of that character, the same way it's different Link's and different Zelda's. Other characters, like the postman from Majora's Mask, postman from Twilight Princess and the postmaster Rito share a resemblence so as to create a 'theme' amongst their shared profession.

I think Koume and Kotake are the same witches from Ocarina of Time, but I won't discuss that here.
It's painfully obvious that they aren't. When Link first met the pair in Ocarina of Time as a child, they were fiercely loyal to Ganondorf and used their dark magic for evil purposes. They delighted and revelled in causing harm to others. In the timeline the leads to Majora's Mask, the two witches would still have been loyal to Ganondorf who was being persued by Hyrule's soldiers. Why would they leave his side to open a potion shop in Termina? Why would their entire nature change from borderline psychotic evil witches to pleasant, friendly old women who brew potions for general sale? Everything about their character is different in Majora's Mask and the only conclusion that can be derived from that is that it is not the same Koume and Kotake from Ocarina of Time but rather a parallel of the pair from Hyrule. Again, this helps establish that Hyrule and Termina are parallel dimensions.


Regarding Kaepora Gaebora and the Four Giants, I think Termina is pretty far from Hyrule, like, farther than where the giants walked. Besides, it doesn't matter, just because something is not mentioned (like Kaepora Gaebora going out of his way to say Hyrule was in danger) does not automatically mean said thing only exists in an alternate universe.
Firstly, again, it is established fact that Termina is a parallel dimension from Hyrule. It is not "far from Hyrule", the two places do not exist within the same dimension. That is fact.
I accept that just because a character does not mention a specific event, doesn't mean it didn't happen. But when the two locations for these events are seperated in the way Termina and Hyrule are, it hints that events in one world do not affect the other.

You also say that Termina is far enough away from Hyrule that the Giants could walk and not be present in Hyrule. That's pretty darn far. The distance between Hyrule and Termina, according to you, must be frightfully huge. How do you explain Link travelling that huge distance by falling through a tree? Link fell while still in Hyrule and yet turns up in the middle of Termina. For the two lands to exist together but be far enough apart for the Giant's to leave Termina without entering Hyrule, Link had to fall through a wormhole or portal. He could not have travelled thousands of miles to the west by falling straight down.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once wrote,
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
Your theory completely ignores facts, cheifly, the fact that Termina and Hyrule are seperate dimensions. Once you ignore that, any and all conlcusions you draw are simply wrong as a direct result. I do apologise for being a huge downer on your theory but all the evidence that disproves it is right there and has been presented throughout this thread by multiple people.
 

SuperMetroid

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It still wouldn't matter. As I said, even if Termina was flooded (say, by the flood water entering the portal) and left under an ocean, that ocean would exist in a seperate dimension to Hyrule and by extension, The Great Sea seen in Wind Waker.
I would agree that it is possible. Like WechyPichu said, the flood water may have gone through the portal and that's sound reasoning as far as I can see. The Great Sea definately doesn't cover them both, but Termina may have its own equivalent.
You're contradicting yourself man. Forget the flood going through the portal. You're last statement is right - "Termina may have its own equivalent". Termina's equivalent would have had its own cause, entirely independent of Hyrule in a natural sense.
 

Locke

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felipe970421

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I have seen absolute no evidence for Termina being an alternate dimension. In fact, the whole theory makes no sense to me. What I menat by "this fact being trivial" is whether or not Termina is an alternate dimension is trivial, as it is clear that people can travel between the two places.
Hyrule historia and the game manual state it, in adition to the existence of parallel hyruleans
 
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When people develop games, they never include things that do not serve multiple purposes. Listen to any developer talk about the process of making a game for proof of this. The masks were an artistic decision, yes, but they also serve to show the moment Link falls through the portal into Termina.
Besides, it is an inarguable fact that Termina is a parallel dimension and is not connected to Hyrule physically. The only way for anyone to travel between the two is with a portal of some kind. That is what we see Link fall into at the start of Majora's Mask.
There is really nothing I can say to this, except that it is just wrong, and I think you know it is wrong. Game developers include things solely for artistic purposes all the time. In fact, I can't remember playing a game where this didn't apply for a very long time.

Yes, Nintendo reused the same models so as to shorten the development time. That doesn't change the fact that all of them (except one) are completely different characters. Going back to everything having multiple purposes, reusing the character models cuts down development time and helps establish Termina as a parallel dimension to Hyrule. The mere fact that the same models are reused is a narrative device deliberately employed to let the player know Termina is a parallel to Hyrule.
As for the series being "filled" with doppelgangers, that simply isn't true. Yes, characters appear in multiple games (like Tingle), but this is always a different incarnation of that character, the same way it's different Link's and different Zelda's. Other characters, like the postman from Majora's Mask, postman from Twilight Princess and the postmaster Rito share a resemblence so as to create a 'theme' amongst their shared profession.
This is also completely untrue. The Zelda series has a cast of character models that are reused in every single game, changing slightly with the art style. I am not counting recurring characters like Tingle and Beedle here, either. I am only counting characters that are supposed to be different. There is absolutely no story significance for the re-used models from Ocarina of Time. The only reason they re-used them was to save time and resources.

It's painfully obvious that they aren't. When Link first met the pair in Ocarina of Time as a child, they were fiercely loyal to Ganondorf and used their dark magic for evil purposes. They delighted and revelled in causing harm to others. In the timeline the leads to Majora's Mask, the two witches would still have been loyal to Ganondorf who was being persued by Hyrule's soldiers. Why would they leave his side to open a potion shop in Termina? Why would their entire nature change from borderline psychotic evil witches to pleasant, friendly old women who brew potions for general sale? Everything about their character is different in Majora's Mask and the only conclusion that can be derived from that is that it is not the same Koume and Kotake from Ocarina of Time but rather a parallel of the pair from Hyrule. Again, this helps establish that Hyrule and Termina are parallel dimensions.
As I said, I won't discuss that here. I will say, however, that them being the same witches works perfectly with no contradictions whatsoever.

Firstly, again, it is established fact that Termina is a parallel dimension from Hyrule. It is not "far from Hyrule", the two places do not exist within the same dimension. That is fact.
I accept that just because a character does not mention a specific event, doesn't mean it didn't happen. But when the two locations for these events are seperated in the way Termina and Hyrule are, it hints that events in one world do not affect the other.

You also say that Termina is far enough away from Hyrule that the Giants could walk and not be present in Hyrule. That's pretty darn far. The distance between Hyrule and Termina, according to you, must be frightfully huge. How do you explain Link travelling that huge distance by falling through a tree? Link fell while still in Hyrule and yet turns up in the middle of Termina. For the two lands to exist together but be far enough apart for the Giant's to leave Termina without entering Hyrule, Link had to fall through a wormhole or portal. He could not have travelled thousands of miles to the west by falling straight down.
There is nothing to suggest that Link was still in Hyrule, or even close to Hyrule, at the beginning of Majora's Mask. In fact, the in-game intro implies that he had already left Hyrule.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once wrote,
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
Your theory completely ignores facts, cheifly, the fact that Termina and Hyrule are seperate dimensions. Once you ignore that, any and all conlcusions you draw are simply wrong as a direct result. I do apologise for being a huge downer on your theory but all the evidence that disproves it is right there and has been presented throughout this thread by multiple people.
The "facts"that you are using are not facts at all. The manual to the game is not canon. In fact, the manuals are not even written by the same people who develop the games, or even by Nintendo. Hyrule Historia states that Termina is a "different world". Not "different dimension", not "different reality", not "different universe". Different world.
Occam's razor states that one should strive to find the simplest explanation for any given dilemma, while trying to avoid speculation as much as possible. Every single piece of evidence you have given is based completely on speculation, and there is not concrete evidence to support your opinion (once again, not fact), and saying Termina is an alternate universe requires more speculation than saying it isn't.
 

Cfrock

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bradley, obviously you don't want to accept anything that is being said to you as true because it goes against the idea you already created in your head, so I'm going to stop trying.

Before I do, I will say that you told us you saw no evidence to suggest the true nature of Termina. You have now been shown this evidence. You have been given sources for this evidence. You have had this evidence presented clearly and even explained to you by several different people. Yet still you refuse to accept it.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley

I don't begrudge you having your own theory of Termina. I even feel somewhat sorry for speaking so aggresively against it. But simply ignoring the evidence isn't going to make your theory correct. You were provided with the overwhelming evidence and still argue against it despite not providing even one tiny thing to suggest your theory is the correct one. To be honest, I can't tell if your just incredibly stubborn, stupid or simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Regardless, I presented my case and you won't accept it. So I will leave it at this.
 
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If you had any real evidence to give me, I would not dismiss it. As I said, all the evidence you have given me is purely speculative.

Obviously, though, neither of us are going to convince one another that the other is right, so we can just leave it at this. We can each believe whatever version we want to believe, and it shouldn't really matter to someone else if I believe Termina is not an alternate reality.
 

WechyPichu

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Bradly, cfrock, enough with the almost flame war. Bradely has evidence to proof that termina is a different land, and viceversa.
 

felipe970421

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If you had any real evidence to give me, I would not dismiss it. As I said, all the evidence you have given me is purely speculative.

Obviously, though, neither of us are going to convince one another that the other is right, so we can just leave it at this. We can each believe whatever version we want to believe, and it shouldn't really matter to someone else if I believe Termina is not an alternate reality.
The game manuals and hyrule historia are not speculative at all, it is stated multiple times and its pretty darn obvious to everyone here except you, you are ignoring things the developers have stated more than twice, a reuse of a few character models is not a reason for theory, the reuse of almost all the character models is stating its a separate "mirror" dimension, trying to push your theory in any zelda-related website will invariably result in this reaction, you are just looking for ways to negate the truth, there is nothing to discuss here.
 
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The game manuals and hyrule historia are not speculative at all, it is stated multiple times and its pretty darn obvious to everyone here except you, you are ignoring things the developers have stated more than twice, a reuse of a few character models is not a reason for theory, the reuse of almost all the character models is stating its a separate "mirror" dimension, trying to push your theory in any zelda-related website will invariably result in this reaction, you are just looking for ways to negate the truth, there is nothing to discuss here.
First of all, I didn't try to push my theory on anybody. It was actually the other way around.
Secondly, I believe I have already addressed this.

There is absolutely no story significance for the re-used models from Ocarina of Time. The only reason they re-used them was to save time and resources.
The manual to the game is not canon. In fact, the manuals are not even written by the same people who develop the games, or even by Nintendo. Hyrule Historia states that Termina is a "different world". Not "different dimension", not "different reality", not "different universe". Different world.
 
First of all, I didn't try to push my theory on anybody. It was actually the other way around.
Secondly, I believe I have already addressed this.
The Manuals WERE written by the developers, also Hyrule Historia was as well and his absolutely canon. Hyrule Historia is Word of God in this instance. You argue against that may as well argue that the sky is red because the argument holds about as much merit.
 
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The Manuals WERE written by the developers, also Hyrule Historia was as well and his absolutely canon. Hyrule Historia is Word of God in this instance. You argue against that may as well argue that the sky is red because the argument holds about as much merit.
Neither of them were written by the developers. Both the manual (and all manuals, for that matter) and Hyrule Historia were outsourced to third parties. However, I do accept what Hyrule Historia says as canon, because it makes sense, and it was confirmed to be canon by the developers. However, it does not take place withing the Zelda Universe, and events that happen in-game take precedence. If something makes more sense to me based on something in-game, I will take that as canon over a single line of text any day. Besides, I see developer quotes as a guide more than as absolute canon.
Judging from fan reactions to the timeline (Which I predicted almost perfectly) other fans feel the same way. The difference is, I am just denying what is ultimately a trivial detail (although perhaps it isn't in regards to this thread), while other fans are denying the entire chronology of the series.
 

Satsy

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So you do accept that it is, as Hyrule Historia puts it, a 'different World'. This being the case, it means the connection to Hyrule's World would be those tenuous connections that Link falls through at the beginning of the game. Or, to put that under a specific word, a portal. He falls into that small, not-exactly-reality area that exists before the Clock Tower, that is almost dreamlike in nature. Artistic license or no, that place ain't like the rest of Hyrule, nor the rest of Termina, magic or otherwise. So it's safe to assume, even if you discount the falling through masks, that the small intro escapade before you hit Termina, is the portal between the Worlds. Even if it isn't a different Universe or reality, that doesn't make getting to it any different, I'm afraid.

It would also, as a different World, not be included in The Great Sea. At best, Phantom Hourglass could be your flooded-Termina, since PH didn't seem to be set in the same World either.
 

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