Ghirahim, Demise, and the Dark Tribe

[Blue Window]

To JuiceJ

My point was to demonstrate why I find it more plausible that the Interlopers story take place after SS rather than before it, but I will go over to discuss your other point.

Here is an excerpt from the SS intro, where it says that Hylia, although not alone, fought the demons and sealed them away. Even if we take Fi's obvious remark that oral history is not completely reliable, we have another piece of information suggests that Hylia, alone or together with other people, fought the demons, without any mentioning of the Light Spirits

SS Intro

To prevent this great power from falling into the hands of the evil swarming the lands... The goddess gathered the surviving humans on an outcropping of earth. She sent it skyward, beyond the reach of the demonic hordes. Beyond even the clouds. With the humans safe, the goddess joined forces with the land dwellers and fought the evil forces, sealing them away. At last, peace was restored to the surface.

Hyrule Historia

As time passed by, the Era of the Goddess Hylia begun. Suddenly, a great evil arose from the depths of earth and tried to claim the Triforce. This evil was the fearsome demon tribe and its leader Demise, and they wanted the ultimate power of the Triforce to control the world.

To protect the Triforce from falling into the hands of the demon tribe, she sent it skyward to the heavens on a piece of land along with the surviving humans. Then, to isolate sky and earth, she sealed the surface under a barrier of clouds.

The Goddess, who remained on the ground with the remaining tribes, fought for her life and finally managed to seal away Demise.

Also, I have not seen any proven connection between the Three Dragons and the Light Spirits, which is a condition for your theory, unless the Light Spirits were just absent from the events of Skyward Sword.

/Blue Window

 

[Fig]

Your theory is how I always imagined the Interloper War Theory. I'm definetly agreeing with your theory!

 

[JuicieJ]

My point was to demonstrate why I find it more plausible that the Interlopers story take place after SS rather than before it, but I will go over to discuss your other point.

Here is an excerpt from the SS intro, where it says that Hylia, although not alone, fought the demons and sealed them away. Even if we take Fi's obvious remark that oral history is not completely reliable, we have another piece of information suggests that Hylia, alone or together with other people, fought the demons, without any mentioning of the Light Spirits

You're still not getting it. I never said that the Light Spirits fought Demise. I said that they chased after the other members of the Demon Tribe. I've stated that very clearly, yet you still keep missing it. How?

Also, I have not seen any proven connection between the Three Dragons and the Light Spirits, which is a condition for your theory, unless the Light Spirits were just absent from the events of Skyward Sword.

They have the same names, they're the guardians of the provinces, and they were appointed by the goddess (which is an aid to the other pieces of evidence). I'd call that a solid connection. Perfect? No. But one that provides about a 95% accurate description.

 

[Blue Window]

To JuiceJ

I am saying that Hylia is mentioned as fighting the demons as well as Demise, while there is no mentioning of the Light Spirits, nor is there any need for the Interloper story to be used as an explanation for that segment.

The Light Spirits were tasked by the Golden Goddeses to seal away the Fused Shadows and the Dark Interlopers whereas the Three Dragons were appointed by Hylia to watch over the song pieces and the provinces. Moreover, the Light Spirits are, well, Spirits of Light sharing name with the province they are inhabitating whereas the Dragons are Dragons sharing name with the province they are living in. Some kind of connection seems apparent, but we have no information on this.

/Blue Window

 

[JuicieJ]

To JuiceJ

I am saying that Hylia is mentioned as fighting the demons as well as Demise, while there is no mentioning of the Light Spirits, nor is there any need for the Interloper story to be used as an explanation for that segment.

The Light Spirits were tasked by the Golden Goddeses to seal away the Fused Shadows and the Dark Interlopers whereas the Three Dragons were appointed by Hylia to watch over the song pieces and the provinces. Moreover, the Light Spirits are, well, Spirits of Light sharing name with the province they are inhabitating whereas the Dragons are Dragons sharing name with the province they are living in. Some kind of connection seems apparent, but we have no information on this.

/Blue Window

There's nothing to say that the dragons didn't aid in the fight, though. Zelda only mentioned Hylia directly fighting Demise. She said nothing about the other members. And just because the dragons are assigned portions of the Song of the Hero doesn't mean they didn't seal away the Fused Shadows in the past. And, as far as the Light Spirits/dragons thing goes, it's not a stretch of the imagination for them to have turned into the Light Spirits later on. And don't bring up the fact that they look different. The Light Spirits' actual forms are most likely the balls of light that the incarnations surround and that they took on forms that match their surroundings.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

The only thing different there is that it says four Light Spirits instead of three, which directly contradicts what was shown in TP in the cutscene with Lanayru giving Link a vision of sorts, which leads me to believe there may be some kind of mistranslation going on. Or maybe it's a fan translation and the fan didn't want to accept that it's three instead of four. I don't know. Point is, everything else is still in-tact.

This brings to mind something Axle once told me...
The zelda series is a legend, not a history book, some things can be legends, only people who were actually there know what really happened.

 

[JuicieJ]

This brings to mind something Axle once told me...
The zelda series is a legend, not a history book, some things can be legends, only people who were actually there know what really happened.

Exactly. That probably plays into why Zelda only mentioned Hylia directly fighting Demise and not the other members of the Demon Tribe.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Exactly. That probably plays into why Zelda only mentioned Hylia directly fighting Demise and not the other members of the Demon Tribe.

I agree.
I think since Zelda has the memories of Hylia, its true she only fought demise since her memories of being hylia are still there, she was not there with the light so its possible your theory could be true.

 

[Blue Window]

Originally Posted by JuiceJ

There's nothing to say that the dragons didn't aid in the fight, though. Zelda only mentioned Hylia directly fighting Demise. She said nothing about the other members. And just because the dragons are assigned portions of the Song of the Hero doesn't mean they didn't seal away the Fused Shadows in the past. And, as far as the Light Spirits/dragons thing goes, it's not a stretch of the imagination for them to have turned into the Light Spirits later on. And don't bring up the fact that they look different. The Light Spirits' actual forms are most likely the balls of light that the incarnations surround and that they took on forms that match their surroundings.

It is not stated that the Dragons did not aid Hylia in the battle against Demise, and it is quite likely that they did. It is not implausible to imagine the Dragons turning into Light Spirits. However, I find it quite hard to imagine the Light Spirits originally are Light Spirits, then turn into dragons (since they were Light Spirits when they sealed the Interlopers) and then back into Light Spirits.

(Moreover, Thunder Dragon Lanyaru's bones can be seen, which suggests to me that he is not an etheral being.)

In the end, the fact that there is neither evidence for the Dragons fighting the other demons nor any evidence for them actually being the Light Spirits makes me sceptic why we ought to believe that those things are when we can explain it in other ways, or just accept that we can't explain it today. But that's just my opinion.

So I guess that this debate has reached some kind of dead end.

/Blue Window

 

[JuicieJ]

It is not stated that the Dragons did not aid Hylia in the battle against Demise, and it is quite likely that they did. It is not implausible to imagine the Dragons turning into Light Spirits. However, I find it quite hard to imagine the Light Spirits originally are Light Spirits, then turn into dragons (since they were Light Spirits when they sealed the Interlopers) and then back into Light Spirits.

Ohhhh, that's where you're stuck. There's a simple explanation for this. Retcons, my friend, retcons. They don't have to be Light Spirits upon sealing the "dark interlopers". They could have been dragons at that point.

(Moreover, Thunder Dragon Lanyaru's bones can be seen, which suggests to me that he is not an etheral being.)

He directly states that he's immortal. However, I think it's the kind of situation where he can't die due to aging. Any other outside means could kill him, as well as the other dragons.

In the end, the fact that there is neither evidence for the Dragons fighting the other demons nor any evidence for them actually being the Light Spirits makes me sceptic why we ought to believe that those things are when we can explain it in other ways, or just accept that we can't explain it today. But that's just my opinion.

So I guess that this debate has reached some kind of dead end.

Nope. Not since I've (hopefully) have straightened out the informational situation between you and I.

 

[Blue Window]

Originally Posted by JuiceJ

Ohhhh, that's where you're stuck. There's a simple explanation for this. Retcons, my friend, retcons. They don't have to be Light Spirits upon sealing the "dark interlopers". They could have been dragons at that point.

It is of course possible that it is a retcon, however, it still takes a leap of faith, not a very large one, especially since Nintendo could have clairifed this in the Historia but omitted this part.

He directly states that he's immortal. However, I think it's the kind of situation where he can't die due to aging. Any other outside means could kill him, as well as the other dragons.

It is quite reasonable for the Dragons to have eternal life, however, my point concerned the oddity with a Light Spirit dying as a Dragon. This can be explained as Lanyaru liking being a dragon, though.

Anyway, in the end, this topic still lacks sufficient data for us to actually be able to draw a conclusion, for placing the Interloper story before SS, as well as placing it before TMC, leaves us with several problems.

/Blue Window

 

[JuicieJ]

It is of course possible that it is a retcon, however, it still takes a leap of faith, not a very large one, especially since Nintendo could have clairifed this in the Historia but omitted this part.



It is quite reasonable for the Dragons to have eternal life, however, my point concerned the oddity with a Light Spirit dying as a Dragon. This can be explained as Lanyaru liking being a dragon, though.

Anyway, in the end, this topic still lacks sufficient data for us to actually be able to draw a conclusion, for placing the Interloper story before SS, as well as placing it before TMC, leaves us with several problems.

/Blue Window

No doubt to anything you said. I know it's not proven. It's just my theory.

 

[JuicieJ]

SS dragons being TP Light Spirits?
Seen this a few times and can't understand why people assume it. It's like saying Volvagia is Valoo because they are both fiery dragons with similar names.

Only it's quite suggested with the dragons, while no attempt is made with a connection to Volvagia and Valoo. I mean, the exact same names? And all the correlations to TP? No way that's a coincidence.

 

[A Link In Time]

Only it's quite suggested with the dragons, while no attempt is made with a connection to Volvagia and Valoo. I mean, the exact same names? And all the correlations to TP? No way that's a coincidence.

Unfortunately, there is the all too clear exclusion of Ordona. Also, the TP Light Spirits and SS dragons, while wanting to aid Link on his quest to defeat the game's evil, differ in subtle albeit important ways. The TP Light Spirits are clearly associated with the sages first introduced in Ocarina of Time whereas the SS dragons are part of a story before that period. This is a major loophole in tying the two groups together.

 

[JuicieJ]

Unfortunately, there is the all too clear exclusion of Ordona.

I've covered this before. There's no contradiction here. In fact, it further supports the theory. Ordona wasn't with the other Light Spirits when they sealed away the "dark interlopers", as is shown in that scene with Lanayru showing Link what happened via a vision.

Also, the TP Light Spirits and SS dragons, while wanting to aid Link on his quest to defeat the game's evil, differ in subtle albeit important ways.

Personalities can change over time. In fact, it's very common.

The TP Light Spirits are clearly associated with the sages first introduced in Ocarina of Time whereas the SS dragons are part of a story before that period. This is a major loophole in tying the two groups together.

What are you talking about? There isn't any attempt at associating the Light Spirits with the Sages in TP. At all. Go back and play the game again and you'll see that no text nor any events in the game suggest an association between the two.