Ghirahim, Demise, and the Dark Tribe

[JuicieJ]

Unless you were living in a cave until Skyward Sword came out, you probably know that I was 100% sure that the Dark Tribe/"dark interlopers" would be the main enemy of the game and that the plot would be the depiction of the Interloper War. Well...things didn't quite go down like I thought they would. No war was directly held in the game, the Mirror of Twilight wasn't seen, the original King of Darkness didn't weild the Trident of Power, and the full Dark Tribe was never revealed. You might think this would lead me to believe that Demise isn't the King of Darkness. Well, that's wrong. I still believe without a doubt that the demon king, Demise, was indeed the leader of the Dark Tribe. Reason being the overall plot of SS still spells it out quite nicely.

If you payed attention to the ink blot opening of the game that takes place before the home menu screen (when no files have been saved), you may have noticed that Ghirahim was among the figures shown when a group of demons invaded the surface in order to obtain the Triforce, which fits the backstory of the "dark interlopers" perfectly. Ghirahim's magic has virtually identical looks to that of the Twili's magic. The Twili got their name after the Dark Tribe was sealed in the Mirror of Twilight, and, in Twilight Princess, Midna thought Zant was using their ancestor's "old magic", as Zant called it. With the stories of the Demon Tribe and the "dark interlopers" matching up and with Ghirahim's magic looking identical to the Twili's magic, I think it's safe to assume that Ghirahim is one of the "dark interlopers", which the King of Darkness is the leader of. (Do take notice that Ghirahim wouldn't be one of the Twili, though. He wasn't sealed in the Mirror of Twilight. If he's indeed part of the Dark Tribe, that is.)

Now, onto Demise himself. Speficially, Demise and Hylia. In the ink blot opening and when Zelda revealed that she was Hylia reborn and that The Imprisoned was Demise in an incomplete form, we learned that the goddess waged war with Demon Tribe. However, Zelda implies that she only directly fought with Demise. She never said she fought the rest of the Demon Lords. This makes sense. We know it was the Light Spirits -- Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru -- that sealed away the "dark interlopers". Skyward Sword did not retcon this with Zelda's statements. This quite obviously coorelates with three dragons in SS, who have the exact same names as the Light Spirits and were appointed by Hylia herself. I find it very hard to believe that these factors are mere coincidence.

These factors have led me to believe that Hylia fought Demise (and Ghirahim in sword form), but sent the three dragons to deal with the other Demon Lords, who were then sealed in the Mirror of Twilight, while Demise, being too strong to seal away forever, was sealed at what later became known as the Sealed Grounds by Hylia, but during Demise's seal, Ghirahim escaped and was never found. This is all just speculation at the moment, and is therefore a theory by exact definition, but it's heavily backed up and tremendously implied. I see no reason to not believe that the backstory of Skyward Sword is indeed the tale of the Interloper War. It's up to you to decide whether you believe this or not, but I, for one, am a firm believer (as I'm sure you can tell).

But it wouldn't be very fair to not ask you guys' thoughts on the subject, so tell me what you think about all this. Do you agree with what I said, or do you think it's a bunch of BS? Please tell!

 

[TheGermanLegend]

I totaly agree with your Theory XD

But that's only possible because I don't care about historia. Historia contradicts with your theory

•History of the Twilight Realm
In ancient times, the people were deeply religious and the world had long been at peace. But, eventually there was conflict over the Sacred Realm, Hyrule. Among the people, those appeared who excelled at black magic and with their super powerful evil magic tried to govern the Sacred Realm.
The Gods sent the four Light Spirits, who then sealed away the Fused Shadows. Additionally, they used the Mirror of Twilight to exile them to the Twilight Realm so that they would never be able to interact with the World of Light. The people living in the Twilight, came to be called the Twili.

Historia talks about FOUR Light Spirits, unlike TP and clearly says that the Triforce was already in the SR. But because the :triforce: was placed in the SR a long time after SS, the Interloper conflict has to take place after SS.

In conclusion your theory is possible if you don't care about Historia ;P

 

[JuicieJ]

I totaly agree with your Theory XD

But that's only possible because I don't care about historia. Historia contradicts with your theory



Historia talks about FOUR Light Spirits, unlike TP and clearly says that the Triforce was already in the SR. But because the :triforce: was placed in the SR a long time after SS, the Interloper conflict has to take place after SS.

In conclusion your theory is possible if you don't care about Historia ;P

The only thing different there is that it says four Light Spirits instead of three, which directly contradicts what was shown in TP in the cutscene with Lanayru giving Link a vision of sorts, which leads me to believe there may be some kind of mistranslation going on. Or maybe it's a fan translation and the fan didn't want to accept that it's three instead of four. I don't know. Point is, everything else is still in-tact.

 

[Shadao]

Just to throw this in the air, what about the Era of Chaos? According to Hyrule Historia, the Era of Chaos took place between Sky Era and the Hero of Time Era. It talks about how the people of Hyrule fell into greed and lust for the Triforce and that the Sacred Realm was sealed away. http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-77/

Peace continued through the land for a long time, but with a new era, a wave of chaos descended upon the land.

Era: Game:
The Era of Chaos Ocarina of Time

•The Battle for the Sacred Realm

The almighty power of folklore was lusted over by many, many people and there was a never ending struggle over the Triforce.

The Sage of Light, Rauru, constructed the Temple of Time around the only entrance to the Sacred Realm which housed the Triforce. The Sacred Realm was sealed with the Master Sword, along with the ability to pass through time. The Master Sword’s pedestal was closed off behind the Door of Time and three sacred stones acted as keys, which were guarded by the trusted people of the forest, the people of water, and the people of fire.

The Triforce was enshrined in the Temple of Light and Rauru was isolated from the world inside the Sacred Realm to continue to protect the power of the gods.

 

[JuicieJ]

Just to throw this in the air, what about the Era of Chaos? According to Hyrule Historia, the Era of Chaos took place between Sky Era and the Hero of Time Era. It talks about how the people of Hyrule fell into greed and lust for the Triforce and that the Sacred Realm was sealed away. http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-77/

I think that's supposed to be the Civil/Unification War, the war that the King of Hyrule dealt with and the backstory to Ocarina of Time. It fits the description perfectly.

 

[Shadao]

I don't think that was the Hyrulean Civil War. Rauru is said to be one of the ancient sages that built the Temple of Time over the Sealed Temple. Not to mention the fact that Hyrule Historia says that the Era of Chaos occured between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap. http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/

The Era of Chaos & the Era of Prosperity

• Pg. 77 The Sealing of the Sacred Realm

The Force Era

The Minish Cap
• Pg. 78 The Picori and the Light Force
• Pg. 79 The Sorcerer’s Birth
• Pg. 80 Searching for the Four Elements
• Pg. 81 The Great Sorcerer’s End

Four Swords
• Pg. 82 The Legend of the Four Sword
• Pg. 83 The Four Heroes

The Era of the Hero of Time


Ocarina of Time
• Pg. 84 Hyrule Kingdom in Chaos
• Pg. 85 Those Chosen by the Triforce
• Pg. 86 Those Chosen by the Triforce (Continued)
• Pg. 87 Ocarina of Time
• Pg. 88 Ocarina of Time (Continued)
• Pg. 89 Ocarina of Time (Continued)
• Pg. 90 The Deciding Battle VS Ganondorf
• Pg. 91 Ocarina of Time (Continued)

Also note that the Hyrulean Civil War has just ended at the start of Ocarina of Time or at least occured when OoT Link was a baby.

 

[JuicieJ]

I don't think that was the Hyrulean Civil War. Rauru is said to be one of the ancient sages that built the Temple of Time over the Sealed Temple. Not to mention the fact that Hyrule Historia says that the Era of Chaos occured between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap. http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/


Also note that the Hyrulean Civil War has just ended at the start of Ocarina of Time or at least occured when OoT Link was a baby.

Hmmm... I still don't see anything to contradict what I've said. The Triforce wasn't yet sealed when Demise and his Demon Tribe attacked, so there's no problem here. What's shown here is probably not the Civil War, though. I agree with you there.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

The Triforce wasn't yet sealed when Demise and his Demon Tribe attacked, so there's no problem here.

It wasn't sealed when Demise attacked, but acording to Historia it was sealed when the dark interlopers attacked. So if you belive in Historia the Demons and the Interlopers aren't the same ;P

 

[Locke]

It wasn't sealed when Demise attacked, but acording to Historia it was sealed when the dark interlopers attacked. So if you belive in Historia the Demons and the Interlopers aren't the same ;P

I don't see where it says that. Keep in mind that when it says "Sacred Realm" (both in the Historia and in the game itself) it's referring to Hyrule.

 

[Blue Window]

This is the Historia's account of the "Ancient Battle" (from glitterberri.com)

Goddess Hylia and the Battle Against Evil

As time passed by, the Era of the Goddess Hylia begun. Suddenly, a great evil arose from the depths of earth and tried to claim the Triforce. This evil was the fearsome demon tribe and its leader Demise, and they wanted the ultimate power of the Triforce to control the world.

To protect the Triforce from falling into the hands of the demon tribe, she sent it skyward to the heavens on a piece of land along with the surviving humans. Then, to isolate sky and earth, she sealed the surface under a barrier of clouds.

The Goddess, who remained on the ground with the remaining tribes, fought for her life and finally managed to seal away Demise.

1. Demons appear from the earth (if this is to be seen as a metaphor or not is up to debate) with the objective to seize the Triforce.
2. Hylia sends away Skyloft.
3. Hylia defeats the demons and seals Demise.

Here is Lanayru's narrative:

When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body… But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued… Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered.

1. The word of Hyrule spread, a war aroused (note that this is not the Hyrulian Civil War).
2. A group of sorcerers triumphed.
3. The Goddesses intervened and ordered the Light Spirits to seal away the Interlopers in the Twilight Realm.

Similarities:

- There is a war over the Triforce.
- The enemy is sealed.
- There is divine intervention.

Differences:

- In SS, the demons assault "Hyrule" whereas it is more of a general chaos in the DI story.
- The Interlopers were sealed by the Light Spirits, Demise was sealed by Hylia.
- There is no hint at Demise's minions being sealed in some otherwordly place.
- Demise's minions did not seem to live in the "light", but this is a vague point.

Note that this excerpt is similar to the DI story:

Hyrule, Kingdom of the Gods

The world that the 3 goddesses created and that the goddess, Hylia protected became known as Hyrule. Those who share the roots of Goddess Hylia were known as Hylians and they held mysterious power.

Peace continued through the land for a long time, but with a new era, a wave of chaos descended upon the land.

The Battle for the Sacred Realm

The almighty power of folklore was lusted over by many, many people and there was a never ending struggle over the Triforce.

In conclusion, I find it more likely that the Dark Interloper story takes place some time after SS, but before TMC.

/Blue Window

 

[JuicieJ]

This is the Historia's account of the "Ancient Battle" (from glitterberri.com)

Goddess Hylia and the Battle Against Evil

As time passed by, the Era of the Goddess Hylia begun. Suddenly, a great evil arose from the depths of earth and tried to claim the Triforce. This evil was the fearsome demon tribe and its leader Demise, and they wanted the ultimate power of the Triforce to control the world.

To protect the Triforce from falling into the hands of the demon tribe, she sent it skyward to the heavens on a piece of land along with the surviving humans. Then, to isolate sky and earth, she sealed the surface under a barrier of clouds.

The Goddess, who remained on the ground with the remaining tribes, fought for her life and finally managed to seal away Demise.

1. Demons appear from the earth (if this is to be seen as a metaphor or not is up to debate) with the objective to seize the Triforce.
2. Hylia sends away Skyloft.
3. Hylia defeats the demons and seals Demise.

Here is Lanayru's narrative:

When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body… But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued… Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered.

1. The word of Hyrule spread, a war aroused (note that this is not the Hyrulian Civil War).
2. A group of sorcerers triumphed.
3. The Goddesses intervened and ordered the Light Spirits to seal away the Interlopers in the Twilight Realm.

Similarities:

- There is a war over the Triforce.
- The enemy is sealed.
- There is divine intervention.

Differences:

- In SS, the demons assault "Hyrule" whereas it is more of a general chaos in the DI story.
- The Interlopers were sealed by the Light Spirits, Demise was sealed by Hylia.
- There is no hint at Demise's minions being sealed in some otherwordly place.
- Demise's minions did not seem to live in the "light", but this is a vague point.

Note that this excerpt is similar to the DI story:

Hyrule, Kingdom of the Gods

The world that the 3 goddesses created and that the goddess, Hylia protected became known as Hyrule. Those who share the roots of Goddess Hylia were known as Hylians and they held mysterious power.

Peace continued through the land for a long time, but with a new era, a wave of chaos descended upon the land.

The Battle for the Sacred Realm

The almighty power of folklore was lusted over by many, many people and there was a never ending struggle over the Triforce.

In conclusion, I find it more likely that the Dark Interloper story takes place some time after SS, but before TMC.

/Blue Window

You're not understanding this properly. Demise wasn't sealed in the Mirror of Twilight, so he and Hylia's fight has no prevalence to the Light Spirits and the Dark Tribe. The whole point of me saying all that I did was to say that there's an unspoken part of the story in which the three dragons dealt with the rest of the Demon Tribe while Hylia fought Demise and Ghirahim. Nothing you just showed me contradicts that, nor does it suggest otherwise.

 

[Shadao]

But there is nothing that says that the Dark Interloper conflict doesn't happen in the Era of Chaos. I remember in the Dark Interloper Conflict that for a time, the people of Hyrule lived in peace till greed took over their hearts and began to murder each other for the Triforce (symbolized by Link and Illia). Then a group of dark wizards created the Fused Shadow to establish domain over the Sacred Realm and when the light spirits came and took the weapon, they were defenseless and banished to the Twilight Realm. Nothing suggested that Demise created the Fused Shadow to establish and in Skyward Sword, it seems he doesn't need any magic weapons to conquer Hyrule given that he is evil it self.
[video=youtube;j2aBiDFsMLg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2aBiDFsMLg&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;jgAh1F8cHlk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgAh1F8cHlk&feature=fvsr[/video]
There's also a difference between Dark Interlopers and the Demons. The Dark Interlopers are said to be light beings who excelled in magic. The Demons of Skyward Sword came from the ground itself, as if from hell.
Twlight Princess

"Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm." — Lanayru (Twilight Princess)

Skyward Sword

One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure.

They mounted a brutal assault upon the surface people, driving the land into deep despair...

Also note that Ghirahim is the spirit of Demise's Sword, much like Fi. Saying that he is a Dark Interloper is like saying that Fi is really the Fairy Queen from Wind Waker, wouldn't you think?

 

[JuicieJ]

But there is nothing that says that the Dark Interloper conflict doesn't happen in the Era of Chaos. I remember in the Dark Interloper Conflict that for a time, the people of Hyrule lived in peace till greed took over their hearts and began to murder each other for the Triforce (symbolized by Link and Illia). Then a group of dark wizards created the Fused Shadow to establish domain over the Sacred Realm and when the light spirits came and took the weapon, they were defenseless and banished to the Twilight Realm. Nothing suggested that Demise created the Fused Shadow to establish and in Skyward Sword, it seems he doesn't need any magic weapons to conquer Hyrule given that he is evil it self.

Oh, of course. I'm not saying what I said is law. It's just what I believe.

There's also a difference between Dark Interlopers and the Demons. The Dark Interlopers are said to be light beings who excelled in magic. The Demons of Skyward Sword came from the ground itself, as if from hell.

"The earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure" doesn't have to be taken literally. It's a legend. Some things told in legends are either obscured or told figuratively.

Also note that Ghirahim is the spirit of Demise's Sword, much like Fi. Saying that he is a Dark Interloper is like saying that Fi is really the Fairy Queen from Wind Waker, wouldn't you think?

Not really. He's a servant of Demise, and therefore qualifies as a member of the Dark Tribe.

 

[A Link In Time]

I totaly agree with your Theory XD

But that's only possible because I don't care about historia. Historia contradicts with your theory



Historia talks about FOUR Light Spirits, unlike TP and clearly says that the Triforce was already in the SR. But because the :triforce: was placed in the SR a long time after SS, the Interloper conflict has to take place after SS.

In conclusion your theory is possible if you don't care about Historia ;P

Well, isn't Ordona that fourth spirit? And this thus detracts from the argument at hand as this minor deity does not appear in Skyward Sword.


And in reply to your original post, JuicieJ, there is solid evidence bolstering Demise as the King of Darkness. What perplexes me though is why he does not resemble the central figure in the ink blot opening of the game. Even in Imprisoned form, they look nothing alike.

And I'm aware of all of these arguments you pose except for the Dark Trident. Would you explain this because I've seen it pop up in many theory arguments. As far as I remember, this weapon was only wielded by Ganon in A Link to the Past, which according to the Hyrule Historia is takes place just after the Sealing War. I really don't understand this whole trident thing. Though please explain it succinctly as I don't wish to drift off-topic.

 

[JuicieJ]

And in reply to your original post, JuicieJ, there is solid evidence bolstering Demise as the King of Darkness. What perplexes me though is why he does not resemble the central figure in the ink blot opening of the game. Even in Imprisoned form, they look nothing alike.

The way I see it, this is because of two things. One, they didn't want to reveal how he looked at that point in the game -- sure, they showed us Demise's figure online, but that's different than in-game --, and, two, because he "appears differently in each epoch and to each person who lays eyes on it."

And I'm aware of all of these arguments you pose except for the Dark Trident. Would you explain this because I've seen it pop up in many theory arguments. As far as I remember, this weapon was only wielded by Ganon in A Link to the Past, which according to the Hyrule Historia is takes place just after the Sealing War. I really don't understand this whole trident thing.

That's the major thing that made the connections...slightly unstable. I have an either/or theory on this, though. Either -- due to the fact that it's somewhat implied that Demise has appeared multiple times (the appearing differently in each epoch thing) -- Demise used the Trident in an event that occurred before he was sealed by Hylia, or the sword is a retcon to the Trident.