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General Mafia Discussion

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Nov 26, 2008
Hey there guys, going to be making a few changes with the Mafia section, and the first is this thread. This thread exists for us to discuss the game overall, as well as the general status of the Mafia section, recent games, players, strategies and roles, as well as talk about what kind of roles, themes, or just general game setups you'd like to see.




The first point of discussion I'd like to bring up (I'll remove this from the first post when it's no longer relevant), is the new setup for the Mafia section and how you can start games. I'd like everyone's input on what I have in mind before I put it in place. :)

What I want to do is abolish the current setup where we have these "officially sanctioned" games that I run or approve mods for, going over peoples' role setups and etc. before letting a game start, while other people make their own "unofficial" games anyway. It just doesn't make a lot of sense across the board, and I think at this point there's not a ton of need for this arbitration.

So I think I'd like it if from now on, people can simply start up and mod their own games as they please.

I think a certain degree of oversight is still necessary, but for the most part people can do what they want. The only thing I will do is take care of a queue of people who want to mod and simply tell them when they can, and otherwise they can do as they please. This would allow people to mod games as they'd like while preventing there from being too many games going at once. If at any point I've declared that the maximum number of games running at a time has been reached, but there are still plenty of people who want to play, all that needs to happen is everyone chimes in here in the discussion thread and I'll be like "ohhh okay next person, go ahead and start your signups". :) If people cause problems with their games, I.E., they've changed rules or details in the middle of their own game, cheated and helped certain players, or created very imbalanced games a few times, then and only then will I be barring them from modding their own games. Otherwise anyone is free to if they just wait in the queue.

tl;dr: Easy bulletpoints!

  • There will be no more official or unofficial games; there will just be games.
  • Anyone can mod a game of their own and decide the details.
  • Interested mods will sign-up in a thread and I will manage the queue.
  • I'm thinking the two normal games + 1 beginner's game is working pretty good. So on average, 3 games at a time.
  • If there are more people waiting than I realize, simply let me know in this thread.
  • You can decide whether to bar or allow newbies and the like for your game at your own discretion.
  • You may decide roles, rules, and other calls yourself, but must be fair and keep it balanced.
  • If you wreck your own games by creating imbalances, ignoring or violating your own rules, or tipping the scales for certain players, you will be forbidden from modding in the future.
  • You may only have one spot in the queue at a time, though as soon as your game starts, you can secure another spot. I just don't want one or two people dominating the queue when other people want to mod. If no one else wants to mod, then no problem.

I do want to persist in having the Beginner's games but... I'm not sure if everyone would be comfortable with that going as it's been alongside the new system since that essentially would give me a monopoly over 1 game going on all the time. Perhaps we could return to having different mods for Beginner's Mafia, though if that's the case then those games I think would still need to be arbitrated somewhat even if other people mod them.

SO! Everyone weigh in! Does everyone like this idea, roughly anyway, or would you prefer it work a different way? I think this is the best system I can come up with overall (better than the current one) and has enough details in place to prevent any future issues whether they'll be needed or not (queuing to avoid flooding too many games and banning troublemaker game mods), but obviously with things like Beginner's Mafia, there's some bugs to work out. I'm sure I'm forgetting some details here and there, and either way I'm open to other ideas.

So tell me your thoughts!
 

Sydney

The Good Samaritan
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Location
Canberra, Australia
Oh, wow, major change! xD Guess I don't have to bug you anymore, am I right? :right:

I would actually love to mod a themed mafia game. The theme I have in mind is MLP, and I'm sorting out roles as we speak. Would that be possible? I've never been a game mod before, but I learn quickly. ^^

Edit: Oh, by the way, great change! This will make the flow of games more easier, and much more fun!
 
Joined
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Oh, wow, major change! xD Guess I don't have to bug you anymore, am I right? :right:

I would actually love to mod a themed mafia game. The theme I have in mind is MLP, and I'm sorting out roles as we speak. Would that be possible? I've never been a game mod before, but I learn quickly. ^^
Well if people like this new system well enough and I don't have majority opposition or anything, then what I'll do is make a "Game Mod Signup Thread" for people to post in and signup, as well as include a list of the current queue in the first post.

So yes, definitely, that would be possible. :)
 

Sydney

The Good Samaritan
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Location
Canberra, Australia
Well if people like this new system well enough and I don't have majority opposition or anything, then what I'll do is make a "Game Mod Signup Thread" for people to post in and signup, as well as include a list of the current queue in the first post.

So yes, definitely, that would be possible. :)

Great! I see no logical reason to oppose this idea. The only gripe, if anything, is working out the bugs with Beginner's. But other than that, I would imagine most people would be on board. Sounds like it's gonna be a lot of fun, too.

Vote: New System :devil:
 

Austin

Austin
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
I'm very much in the mind of don't fix what ain't broken. The current system, or lack thereof, has worked out fairly well for the Mafia community on ZD thus far. Could problems arise? Sure. Anything could happen. But with something like this, a system that people have not shown any inclination to abuse thus far (in my opinion, at least), regulation should be reactive, not proactive.

That being said, I don't have much against this proposed system. These rules are very lax and much of what you've written up here, Axle, is pretty much the de facto state of affairs at this moment. I do have one tiny quibble, mainly about this part.

If at any point I've declared that the maximum number of games running at a time has been reached

I disagree with the proposed rule that this system is going through one person. I understand that you introduced Mafia to ZD and have invested a large amount of time into it, but several other people have gotten involved in the organization of Mafia games, namely myself and Viral Maze. Again, I don't know if we need to necessarily cross this bridge until we come to it, but I'd be much more in favor of a system taking into account community consensus rather than the opinion of any one person.

Yes, it's not a great deal of power being invested into yourself and it's a very small point, but since we're speaking our minds here I thought I would bring it up. Like I said, however, this is a good standard should we need to fall back on one.



Moving on from the discussion of rules (the title seems to imply that this thread exists for more than one topic, if I'm mistaken, I apologize), there are a few things I'd like to bring up. One of the main issues with the ZD mafia community at the moment, I think, is lack of general participation. Games tend to become inactive as they drag on and the more inactive players are killed, and generally speaking it's rather difficult to get more than twenty people to sign up to begin with. I think we should attempt to brainstorm several methods of promoting the game and explaining it to others.

As for the Beginner's Mafia games, I think they're a good idea on paper. Give Beginner's a place to try the game out before participating for real. However, in practice, I feel like this effectively segments the active player base in half. I don't know what the turnout is like in Beginner's games, but as I stated previously, for non-Beginner's games it's somewhat dismal. Who can get into which game should be largely up to the specific game mod, but I would encourage the practice of accepting anyone who understands the basic outline of the game. It may increase turnout and keep games active long after they've started.



EDIT: I apparently missed the bit about a queue and sign-up thread for modding. I don't particularly like this part either. I think people should be able to just start a game by opening up a thread, unless again, things get out of hand. I very much prefer a deregulated, relaxed system until circumstances require a different one.
 
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Kybyrian

Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Location
Amherst, MA
Gender
Didn't I already answer this one?
Austin said:

Barba non facit philosophum

However, Axle, I do not see the purpose in a policy de novo. The current system is not terrible per se. I see nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo.

Quieta non movere.
 

Viral Maze

Verb the adjective noun
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Location
Canada
I agree with most of it. I think there should be a queue. Every site I've played on (besides ZD) has had a queue that is generally maintained by ALL players. You just post your theme and that you're interested in modding, and it goes sequentially from there after the last game finishes (there usually is a set number of games running at one time).

Speaking of that, I think we should have two major games, one beginners game, and perhaps one mini-game running at the same time. I think having a mini-game running won't take anything away from the other games. If anything, it may be an area for newbies and experienced players to mingle in a small game before the newbies jump into 16+ player games. I define a minigame as less than 12 players, maybe even less than 10.

The theme I have in mind is MLP,
What's MLP?

Mafia: Christianity

Oh man... Jesus Christ: Jack of all Trades that has to die for town to win
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
I'm very much in the mind of don't fix what ain't broken. The current system, or lack thereof, has worked out fairly well for the Mafia community on ZD thus far. Could problems arise? Sure. Anything could happen. But with something like this, a system that people have not shown any inclination to abuse thus far (in my opinion, at least), regulation should be reactive, not proactive.
Okay, bit of a lack of information here on my part then. To put it plainly: I do not want to regulate official games anymore. The abolishing of "sanctioned" Mafia, then, is a change in the current system one way or another, and as that change is going to be made, I wanted to look at ways to avoid problems from that change.

First thought of course is that me not running this anymore shouldn't be a problem and people will continue to make their own games. However, this neglects a few facts: I have three people on the waiting list for modding my Mafia games already. Two are you and Viral, which I'm assuming no longer count. The other is Violet. Beyond her, I get requests fairly often, and as has been made clear two people (GWAF and Atticus) are immediately interested in starting their own games. That means there is a minimum of 3 new Mafia games about to start if people just do everything freely.

That's on top of two existing Mafia games and Beginner's Mafia.

6 games going at once.

You spoke of not getting enough participation in Mafia, and I feel like having six games going at once is basically going to murder that participation further. Now, obviously all the game mods can simply convene and discuss who goes when. But why not just simplify that and make it semi official with a queue and a few games going on at the same time?


I disagree with the proposed rule that this system is going through one person. I understand that you introduced Mafia to ZD and have invested a large amount of time into it, but several other people have gotten involved in the organization of Mafia games, namely myself and Viral Maze. Again, I don't know if we need to necessarily cross this bridge until we come to it, but I'd be much more in favor of a system taking into account community consensus rather than the opinion of any one person.

Yes, it's not a great deal of power being invested into yourself and it's a very small point, but since we're speaking our minds here I thought I would bring it up. Like I said, however, this is a good standard should we need to fall back on one.
Well, I intended it to be community-run; as I said, if at any point the number of games going on at a time turns out to be not enough and there are people waiting to play a game, all they need to do is chime in to totally overrule my (or whoever's) call on waiting to start any new games. In other words, whoever's running the queue does little more than busywork writing down names and going by a common sense set number of games... and can be overruled at any time by people simply saying they want to play another game. Then the next game is started. No problem.

In my eyes we definitely would need someone managing the list (I described above already why I think we need to queue in the first place). You can't have an entire group managing a list of people who want to moderate Mafia games. That busywork needs to be handled by a single person, even if they can (and in this case should) be easily overruled by the community.



Moving on from the discussion of rules (the title seems to imply that this thread exists for more than one topic, if I'm mistaken, I apologize), there are a few things I'd like to bring up. One of the main issues with the ZD mafia community at the moment, I think, is lack of general participation. Games tend to become inactive as they drag on and the more inactive players are killed, and generally speaking it's rather difficult to get more than twenty people to sign up to begin with. I think we should attempt to brainstorm several methods of promoting the game and explaining it to others.

As for the Beginner's Mafia games, I think they're a good idea on paper. Give Beginner's a place to try the game out before participating for real. However, in practice, I feel like this effectively segments the active player base in half. I don't know what the turnout is like in Beginner's games, but as I stated previously, for non-Beginner's games it's somewhat dismal. Who can get into which game should be largely up to the specific game mod, but I would encourage the practice of accepting anyone who understands the basic outline of the game. It may increase turnout and keep games active long after they've started.
Yeah you're correct. :)

I don't have anything to add to the participation issue beyond simply preventing an overabundance of games from opening up at once. I'm focused on that issue at the moment. I'll think on it though.

Yeah I agree on the note of Beginner's Mafia, though. As I said, if the new setup is put into place, control over who gets to play goes purely to the game mod hosting the game. Beginner's Mafia can still exist as a tool to help people learn -- what with its mentors and simpler roles -- but beyond that anyone should be allowed to play the other games most of the times as long as they understand the basics, in my eyes. Though, if people want to be strict about it for their game, then they can.


However, Axle, I do not see the purpose in a policy de novo. The current system is not terrible per se. I see nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo.
I explained above in my reply to Austin why the status quo is changing and why I feel the need to establish a couple of changes for that reason. Beyond that, you explicitly complained to me about the current setup for Mafia over Skype not that long ago. :P Though I guess you've changed your mind.
 

Xinnamin

Mrs. Austin
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Location
clustercereal
I agree with most of it. I think there should be a queue. Every site I've played on (besides ZD) has had a queue that is generally maintained by ALL players. You just post your theme and that you're interested in modding, and it goes sequentially from there after the last game finishes (there usually is a set number of games running at one time).
This. A queue will help introduce new mods into the mix, but no reason that a single member has to maintain the queue, we're all big boys and girls here, I think we can all play nice without being supervised.

Also can I suggest that all new mods be required, or at least heavily encouraged, to have an experienced co-mod help them out? Doesn't matter who the co-mod is as long as they've modded before, they don't even have to do much, just make sure there aren't broken setups like, say, mafia doctor =P
 

Kybyrian

Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Location
Amherst, MA
Gender
Didn't I already answer this one?
Axle the Beast said:
I explained above in my reply to Austin why the status quo is changing and why I feel the need to establish a couple of changes for that reason. Beyond that, you explicitly complained to me about the current setup for Mafia over Skype not that long ago. Though I guess you've changed your mind.

I don't really remember complaining to you about this, but watev.

I think it could use some changes. We don't need 50 games going on at once and everyone popping their head in and messing things up. I agree with the queue, and I also agree with Xinn's idea about having inexperienced mods having an experienced co-mod with them. I think it's in good practice for everyone to learn by having a co-mod help them out with throwing around ideas and balancing their game to make it an enjoyable learning experience. Modding a game should be fun, just as playing a game should be fun, but both can be a wreck if your game has a poor setup, and then you just get another game that people can't wait to be done with. I think it would be best if we had a simple queue thread, not particularly maintained by anyone but limit the number of ongoing games at least a little bit.

I don't agree with blacklisting the people that have been known to disrupt games or be cheaters from modding a game; I think they should be required to have a co-mod with them just an inexperienced mod would. I think it's also up to the mod of a game whether or not to blacklist that person from their games, as well.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
I don't like the co-mod idea because it ends up being another method of telling people who is allowed to mod a game on their own, as we've basically done before. I think that's kind of the opposite of allowing people to just make their own games.


I don't agree with blacklisting the people that have been known to disrupt games or be cheaters from modding a game; I think they should be required to have a co-mod with them just an inexperienced mod would. I think it's also up to the mod of a game whether or not to blacklist that person from their games, as well.
...? I think you misread and are remembering past situations. This has nothing to do with bad players; that is purely up to the game mod and/or forum moderators if the behavior is actually in violation of board rules (like trolling or the like).

I'm referring to game mods who repeatedly cause problems in their games. Say a mod makes several games with grossly imbalanced roles so one side basically has a guaranteed victory, or allows certain people to break the rules, or other problems like that. Some enforcement of effort put into your game so you aren't screwing players over with your games. If someone ruins their own game, particularly if they do so multiple times, then they would not be allowed to mod Mafia games anymore. Whether or not they sucked as a player of Mafia would not be a factor.
 
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