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Gay men

Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Gonna be honest, I think the Russia "solution" would do more harm than good. The mental issues you mentioned are, by and large, brought about by the fear of not being accepted, the feeling of being an outsider and feeling that one's true self must be hidden. Forcing them to stay in the closet won't solve any of this, it will just make those feelings stronger, particularly for those who are forced back into the closet.

You're concerned about the public's reaction to gay people? About their tacit disapproval and disgust? It's only to be expected. For most people alive right now not being heterosexual has been "wrong" and "deviant" by society's values. Of course people are going to react they way they are. Even the younger and more open minded have been socialized to think this way, but fewer and fewer of them are taking those lessons to heart.

Social change isn't a fast or easy process. It takes generations. Look at woman's suffrage, the catalyst for equal gender rights in modern society. Depending on the county it has been nearly or over a hundred years since the movement took hold and yet gender equality is still a problem (less of one, but a problem nonetheless).

You can't expect the social collective consciousness to change in a single generation. Too many people hold on to the "old way" of thinking. Some of them will manage to pass their prejudice to their children and some of them will pass it on as well. But it diminishes with every iteration until being opposed to the change is the deviant attitude.

Social change is spurred on by the youth of a society. Psychologically, people become set in their ways and more resistant to change in their twenties and a lot of the people who are alive today were in their thirties, forties and fifties when the LGBTQ rights movement really started to gain traction. As time goes on and people die their ideas will die with them. By the mid point of this century anti-LGBTQ sentiment will be very uncommon and one of those "dirty little secrets" only shared in select company. Give it another fifty to a hundred years and no one will bat an eye when they see non-heteronormative relationships.

TL;DR: The original opponents of the LGBTQ movement still live and you want to proclaim the whole thing a failure because they won't shut up about it.

Sounds a lot like giving up to me. Personally, I'm going to fight for a better world.
 

Vanessa28

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Let me be straight (odd word use, I know), I have zero and I mean zero objections against gay men. Everybody should be able to express themselves. If we would frown upon gay couples who express their love by walking hand-in-hand and share a kiss, we also should frown upon straight couples who do the same. I'm straight myself but would never look down upon people who aren't straight.
 

Misty

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Hmm. Ya know, I wouldn't want my kid to be gay. I'll say it. If they are, that opens a can of worms for me I'd prefer not to deal with. I think I'd manage to, but I really don't want to. And I don't want my kid to have to deal with being gay. No, I'm not talking about the aversion of others, they'll deal with that no matter what, I am quite sure. I mean the not being able to have their own babies per say, the LGBT culture at large that they would be invited (in some cases forced) into, health risks, and, yes, mental health issues (which I do not believe are entirely caused by "oppression". The numbers are just too high if memory serves to be explained by that alone.)

In terms of gay folks being openly gay, I don't in particular care. I think in general they might find a more real and better acceptance doing things that way, but that's just theorizing on my part. I won't mention the whole sin thing because we're all playing fast and loose with immortal souls and I also haven't met a gay man or woman who wasn't an atheist of some stripe.

But if I were to present you the reason I would agree with Dan, it is this:

The LGBT culture as it is right now, is absolute chaos. It is an anything goes attitude painted over with a human right's sheen. And that's a dangerous thing for anyone to embrace. I'm not saying wanting to kiss a man is the problem or doing it or anything like that. I'm saying the message that underlies the entire movement is "anything goes, your whims, lusts, and desires are the highest standard, and anyone who says boo about that is against happiness". And that is a very very dangerous message to embrace. That's a message that leads to destruction and depravity. Because, and I hope this isn't like a shock, most of our whims, lusts, and desires tend to come from a short sighted, thrill seeking side of our personality.

I'm not trying to be a bigot, this really isn't about who you want to whatever. That's not a message any of you should be submerging yourselves in if you want a long and happy life full of growth. So for that reason alone, yeah, I would recommend to gay or bi or such people that they go back into the closet metaphorically speaking. This movement has a really harmful mentality you're invited to embrace. And honestly, I don't think it got you rights in a way you should be happy with or possibly at all. If you wanna come back out when the message is better, then kill it, babe.

And yes, I would direct this at the straight people in their sexual liberation movement.
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2017
I'm saying the message that underlies the entire movement is "anything goes, your whims, lusts, and desires are the highest standard, and anyone who says boo about that is against happiness". And that is a very very dangerous message to embrace. That's a message that leads to destruction and depravity. Because, and I hope this isn't like a shock, most of our whims, lusts, and desires tend to come from a short sighted, thrill seeking side of our personality.
Elaborate on this. What whims and desires are you referring to? Who are you to decide someone's sexual destiny as short sighted and even if it was, an immoral act that causes destruction and depravity? The whole LGBT culture that you're referring to has sought to fight sexual repression which has long been a classical component of an authoritarian society (namely one that seeks to control someones sexual and romantic activity).
 

Misty

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What whims and desires are you referring to?
The carnal ones? (Sex, Leisure, Food, a good crap) Let's put it in terms most of us can agree with. I really like food. In fact, there isn't a moment in my day that I wouldn't really enjoy eating most things under the sun. In fact, when I'm bored my first instinct is to grab a bag of chips and just eat until I feel something besides bored. Now, other than some really terrific metabolism scores, if I actually followed through on that sort of whimsical lust for food with the frequency I desire, it would pose certain health risks. And if I really embraced it full ham, I would probably take on some physical attributes to accompany it. But I think the worst thing that would happen, is that over time my willpower would decay, my ability to think past each moment would lessen because all our aspects of all our lives are overlapping with each other. And probably, most dark of all, I would begin to appreciate food less and less unless I kept upping the strength. We aren't compartmentalized as much as we all would like to believe. Now, imagine you had a movement that not only said it was right and proper to follow my every instinct in terms of food, but wanted to educate me about better ways to eat more and really explore my food desire. But even that wouldn't be so bad, what if this movement said that anyone who questioned my gluttony was a bigot? And then what if perhaps most sinister, this movement had this sort of implication surrounding it that my most sacred and important human aspect was my lust and/or love for food? Now that all together, I would suggest wasn't perhaps the best movement for any human to be throwing themselves in.

Who are you to decide someone's sexual destiny as short sighted and even if it was, an immoral act that causes destruction and depravity?
I mean, there's a couple answers to this. The first is that sexual destiny makes it sound like they haven't got a choice in embracing being loose. On that, we would have to disagree. I'm quite sure they can decide to be responsible and focused on greater things than getting their jollies off. And if they can't, that's actually quite a bad thing and considered a mental illness.

The second answer to that is very simple: I am me. I am a thinking creature blessed with a mind who examines the world and those in it hoping to extract wisdom and meaning to pass on to my fellow creatures and try to practice myself so that we can all have a better life. And it is in my humble estimations, mostly short term gratification causing such wretched problems in our world.

Finally, and not least of which, I didn't really invent the concept of short term, I just recognized it as happening and pointed it out. The emperor has no clothing on this one. I'm sorry to be the little boy who points it out, but no amounts of "who are you to judge" is going to make that emperor not in his knickers.

Finally, and of course, you're all free to disagree, not listen to the wisdom I believe I've found, and practice any amount of short term gratification that you like. I would never force you to obey me. But, and this is quite important, I retain the right to stand in judgement and examination. You're free to do the same as I'm sure you will. The only people who have no judgement are those who have no critical thought. There's a difference between tempering your judgement with compassion and empathy and not judging at all.

The whole LGBT culture that you're referring to has sought to fight sexual repression which has long been a classical component of an authoritarian society (namely one that seeks to control someones sexual and romantic activity).
I think, and again, this has nothing to do with someone being gay, I would say the same thing to straight folks:

I think that they went about this like children. I think they just assumed all authority is inherently wrong and ill-conceived and to be fair, most of it is. But once you've tossed out the man, you're still left with all the problems the man was dealing with. And no matter how you frame it, human sexuality has a lot of problems attached. And the idea that permissiveness is going to correct those is short sighted and lacking in long term thinking.

#1. Sexual promiscuity and the right to shag the same or any gender are not inherently linked.
#2. Sexual promiscuity has significantly more attached ills than enforced monogamy. <---although we agree they both suck
#3. Making sexual promiscuity work is a lot harder to do for a variety of inane reasons.


Now, that is not to say that the more permissive option couldn't be achieved, but it is to say that when you go about tackling a problem like human sexuality, a **** the man attitude we want our candy is only going to take you so far. And while that attitude doesn't characterize everyone in the movement, it is the majority attitude.

If you want a micro example of the issues with human sexuality and human lusts without check, in my job I frequently work with families where babies with significant health issues are abandoned in the hospital by their parents who were on drugs. And unless they're lucky, they will be abandoned into a system with more holes, cracks, and abuses than you or I can possibly begin to imagine. They have hope because where there is life there is hope, but they're up that creek for shore.

And why did they have those health risks, because mom wouldn't stop the drugs. Why do they exist, because mom just wanted a quick shag. And why are they abandoned in a hospital with no one to love them, because mom and dad don't want a baby in the way of the next bender. Because mom and dad don't think past themselves or this moment. And they never did.

And none of this is to say drugs should be illegal or that you shouldn't have the right to shag someone. But it is to say that maybe before we kick out the jamz and yell **** the man, we really stop and consider the consequences of the action and all the actions that will come from it.

And if you want the great punchline, most of the babies we see adopted out of these circumstances into better lives, are taken in by monogamous gay men (some women too). Because stability and order aren't inherently bad things and it turns out gay people know that too. (Shocker.)
 

Castle

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The LGBT culture as it is right now, is absolute chaos. It is an anything goes attitude painted over with a human right's sheen.
You paint homosexual "culture" with a rather broad brush there. Who's to say what LGBTQRSLMNOPWXYZ "culture" even is? Because far as I can tell, that's the culture as presented by popular media in tandem with a good deal of punks who happen to be gay that the media focuses on to represent that culture, mostly because they're attention whores first and foremost.

This would be similar to labeling every "liberal" as a crazed social justice warrior loon or half baked communist, or every conservative as a radical right wing white nationalist, or every Christian as a gullible bible thumping chump who believes in fairy tales. Most gays stay at home and mind their own business. You wouldn't even know most gays by looking at them. Because like everyone else, these people just aren't ridiculous and/or scary enough to attract the media's attention.

The biggest problem homosexuals had was aids. Homosexuality was a health hazard but we're beyond that now. Any homosexual in his or her right mind is rightfully scared to death of aids so they take precautions same as everyone else. They pose no other risk to society. You can not blame them for being a bad influence on kids any more than you can blame the video games or the comic books or movies. As a parent, you're the biggest influence on your kids' lives anyway.

The only problem I have with homosexuality is the way it is abused and weaponized by political activists with agendas. And it infuriates me any time political hacks do that to anything.
 
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the8thark

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Men and women.

That's it. There's nothing more to say. Which gender you like doesn't matter. We don't go around calling every straight person, a straight man or straight women. Did your parents have a straight wedding? It's crazy wrong and totally against eqality. That's why I am slightly against the gay/lesbian pride movement. Not because it exists. It is because I treat everyone equally. There is no need for gay/lesbian or straight pride movements. There should be no need to come out because who you like should not cause a stir. Everyone should be proud of who they are without any need to hide it at all.

Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.
This is a phrase I live my life by.
Everyone should have the equal opportunity to find someone they like. If the person is a different or the same gender, that doesn't matter. Are they happy? If yes, then that is all that matters.
 

Castle

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There is no need for gay/lesbian or straight pride movements.
Yeah, the pride movements should have stopped after they got marriage. Because now that they're on equal terms in that final respect, any pride movements are supremacist in nature.

They got what they wanted. Now party's over.
 

Dan

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Men and women.

That's it. There's nothing more to say. Which gender you like doesn't matter. We don't go around calling every straight person, a straight man or straight women. Did your parents have a straight wedding? It's crazy wrong and totally against eqality. That's why I am slightly against the gay/lesbian pride movement. Not because it exists. It is because I treat everyone equally. There is no need for gay/lesbian or straight pride movements. There should be no need to come out because who you like should not cause a stir. Everyone should be proud of who they are without a any need to hide it at all.

Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.
This is a phrase I live my life by.
Everyone should have the equal opportunity to find someone they like. If the person is a different or the same gender, that doesn't matter. Are they happy? If yes, then that is all that matters.
That's because only a small percentage of the world is gay, it would be redundant to call a wedding a straight wedding since 99% of the time it will be. I agree with equality of opportunity 100% but people act like sour fish over it for many reasons we all know as to why.
 

Deus

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Men and women.

That's it. There's nothing more to say. Which gender you like doesn't matter. We don't go around calling every straight person, a straight man or straight women. Did your parents have a straight wedding? It's crazy wrong and totally against eqality. That's why I am slightly against the gay/lesbian pride movement. Not because it exists. It is because I treat everyone equally. There is no need for gay/lesbian or straight pride movements. There should be no need to come out because who you like should not cause a stir. Everyone should be proud of who they are without any need to hide it at all.

Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.
This is a phrase I live my life by.
Everyone should have the equal opportunity to find someone they like. If the person is a different or the same gender, that doesn't matter. Are they happy? If yes, then that is all that matters.

A gay wedding is much less common than a straight wedding so I don't see the problem using it as a descriptor. It helps build a mental image particularly if people automatically assume a straight wedding when you say wedding.

Same as with using a physical descriptor. You might say 'look at what that black man is doimg' rather than just man if you are in a white country and are pointing someone out. However if you were in Japan there would be little point in saying 'look at what that Asian man is doing'.
 

the8thark

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Same as with using a physical descriptor. You might say 'look at what that black man is doimg' rather than just man if you are in a white country and are pointing someone out.
People do things like this but it needs to stop. Though the more mixed multicultural a country is, the less this happpens. In Australia we rarely say this because there's so many different kinds of people here. I agree with you totally, we need to treat people equally.
 
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Stormageden747

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That's why I am slightly against the gay/lesbian pride movement. Not because it exists. It is because I treat everyone equally. There is no need for gay/lesbian or straight pride movements.
Preach. Honestly pride movements and pride month and stuff, it's all stupid. I mean you're gay, it's such a big deal, yaaayyyyy. The gay people got the marriage right and that's all that should be okay. They have exactly the same rights as straight people. They claim they want to fit in with everyone else and stuff, then they have these huge pride things.

Hopefully these pride things die down soon.
 
Joined
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the pride movements should have stopped after they got marriage. Because now that they're on equal terms in that final respect, any pride movements are supremacist in nature.
Harsh reminder that pride is not about inclusivity or gay marriage. Yes it’s a celebration of who we are but it’s a celebration in the face of our oppressors. Pride is about revolution and showing cishets that they can beat and murder us but they will never silence us or destroy our spirit. We are still here and we are still fighting for liberation. Don’t lose sight of why we have pride and don’t stop fighting until all LGBT people are free and safe
 

Wombat Veteran

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Preach. Honestly pride movements and pride month and stuff, it's all stupid. I mean you're gay, it's such a big deal, yaaayyyyy. The gay people got the marriage right and that's all that should be okay. They have exactly the same rights as straight people. They claim they want to fit in with everyone else and stuff, then they have these huge pride things.

Hopefully these pride things die down soon.
It's not just about marriage. It's more so about battling the stigma against homosexuality that still infects our culture.
 

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