Spoiler Ganondorf - a garo master?

[the walrus cat]

Today I was replaying the final boss fight of Wind Waker and noticed something I don't think I've ever seen pointed out. Ganondorf in WW seems to be based on the concept of the garo in MM. He holds two katanas under a large concealing robe, just like the garo. However, they also share extremely similar fighting styles as well. WW Ganondorf is highly agile, jumping into the air and charging at link with his katanas.

This may simply be an interesting design choice. Perhaps something in Japanese culture serves as a common source of inspiration?

So in terms of theories, this observation could loosely support a few wild ones regarding counterpart characters in Termina. In MM, no obvious counterpart to ganondorf exists, and Igos du Ikana has no obvious OoT counterpart. In WW, Daphnes, the king of hyrule serves almost as ganondorf's "foil." Although they're enemies, Daphnes is somewhat similar in his stature and garments, and even directly compares his motives to gannondorf's. Eventually Ganondorf infiltrates hyrule and erects his own tower right behind hyrule castle! Finally, Daphnes thwarts Ganondorf's plans to use the triforce, juxtaposing their power and showing their rivalry.

If Igos du Ikana has a hyrulian counterpart, it would be the king of hyrule. The use of ganon's tower in WW is extremely similar to the use of the stone tower, another highly interesting observation. The rivalry between the garo and the Ikana almost mirrors that of Ganondorf and Hyrule, especially as seen in WW. So could the garo be some kind of counterpart of Ganondorf?

 

[Jirohnagi]

You're trying to connect something that doesn't match well.

Also we never see the king of Hyrule in OOT so no comparable Terminian counterpart is possible. Link, Zelda and the Dorf don't have counterparts due to who they are. The Chosen Ones by the triforce. As much as i'd kill for a terminian link or g-dorf never gonna happen.

There isn't any rivalry between Dorf and Daphnes.. where this came from i know not where. Dorf literally destroyed hyrule via the gods and Daphnes wants revenge hell he literally recruits a 10 year old to do his dirty work the lazy swine.

We actually see in WW that Dorf Mellows out BIIIG time and gives a small amount of back story.

But back to his design you can actually see it as more he no longer relies on magic for his power but instead his strength of arms. Which'd explain why his torso seems more larger than other Dorfs. as for the choice for dual blades, why use a shield when you can go for double the offense?

Garo's are literal spirit ninja spies. they state themselves their duty was to spy on Ikana and learn it's secrets. Then all went to pot. I do think Ikana could be the terminian form of Hyrule and the Garo could be the Gerudo but that'd apply to the city states not the actual monarchy. I'd be more inclined on that to think that Clocktowns Hyrule and Ikana Gerudo.

 

[DragonEleven]

While I agree with most of the reasoning (I had assumed basically the same when I first played MM), I don't think Ganondorf's Terminian equivalent would be a/the Garo Master (it's unclear how many of them there are).
The Garo are a group of spies that were sent to spy on Ikana by another nation... it does not make sense for a nations leader to go when he has already sent spies, so their true leader (and Ganondorf's Terminian equivalent) would most likely have stayed behind, and would probably have lost interest when the Ikana Kingdom fell, so would not have been seen in MM.
If anything, I'd say that Nabooru's Terminian equivalent would be a/the Garo Master... both are superiors to others of their kind, but follow the orders of a higher-up leader.

 

[the walrus cat]

You're trying to connect something that doesn't match well.

I was mostly excited about the similarities in their design, so looking back on it my theory is a reach.

Also we never see the king of Hyrule in OOT so no comparable Terminian counterpart is possible. Link, Zelda and the Dorf don't have counterparts due to who they are. The Chosen Ones by the triforce. As much as i'd kill for a terminian link or g-dorf never gonna happen.

I generally buy the theory that the triforce holders don't have counterparts, but I don't recall any in-game evidence directly suggesting this has to be true. Tingle is clearly a counterpart to link in some form. I've seen some theories that kafei is a link counterpart as well. The lack of clear zelda or gannondorf counterpart is the most suggestive evidence that the triforce holders have no counterparts, but automatically assuming they have no counterpart is limiting.

There isn't any rivalry between Dorf and Daphnes.. where this came from i know not where. Dorf literally destroyed hyrule via the gods and Daphnes wants revenge hell he literally recruits a 10 year old to do his dirty work the lazy swine.

We actually see in WW that Dorf Mellows out BIIIG time and gives a small amount of back story.

Rivalry might not have been the best choice of words since it might imply they're on similar footing. They aren't anymore since Gannondorf helped destroy Hyrule. Nonetheless, Gannondorf is the king of evil and Daphnes is the king of Hyrule. They're enemies with the same political position in their respective faction. Gannondorf's goal is to claim the triforce, and Daphnes beats him to it. After Gannondorf gave his backstory, Daphnes actually compared himself to him, because they both wanted what was best for their kingdom to some extent.

But back to his design you can actually see it as more he no longer relies on magic for his power but instead his strength of arms. Which'd explain why his torso seems more larger than other Dorfs. as for the choice for dual blades, why use a shield when you can go for double the offense?

Maybe, but TP gannondorf uses a single sword. Perhaps WW Gannondorf wasn't directly designed based on the garo, but maybe both designs share the same source of inspiration.

Garo's are literal spirit ninja spies. they state themselves their duty was to spy on Ikana and learn it's secrets. Then all went to pot. I do think Ikana could be the terminian form of Hyrule and the Garo could be the Gerudo but that'd apply to the city states not the actual monarchy. I'd be more inclined on that to think that Clocktowns Hyrule and Ikana Gerudo.

When I wrote the original post, I almost went here and compared garo to gerudo, but I see the pirates in pirates fortress to be the counterparts of the gerudo in gerudo's fortress. As far as royalty goes, I definitely think Ikana is a parallel to Hyrule. They're both monarchies, and another thing I think is significant is that the Ikana castle seems to be a counterpart to hyrule castle. Something cool is that the track for Ikana Castle references the Hyrule castle theme in ALTTP (and WW, etc). On the other hand, I would see Clock town as being more like Kakariko village. Perhaps Clock Town was once under the jurisdiction of Ikana, but history played out differently in Termina and forgot about the Ikana monarchy after they were sacked by Garos. This is why I made the case that Garos are like Gannondorf's evil army, but I do think the connection is kind of a stretch. I'm still pretty perplexed by the Garos myself, so I'd like to hear if anyone has other theories on them.

While I agree with most of the reasoning (I had assumed basically the same when I first played MM), I don't think Ganondorf's Terminian equivalent would be a/the Garo Master (it's unclear how many of them there are).
The Garo are a group of spies that were sent to spy on Ikana by another nation... it does not make sense for a nations leader to go when he has already sent spies, so their true leader (and Ganondorf's Terminian equivalent) would most likely have stayed behind, and would probably have lost interest when the Ikana Kingdom fell, so would not have been seen in MM.
If anything, I'd say that Nabooru's Terminian equivalent would be a/the Garo Master... both are superiors to others of their kind, but follow the orders of a higher-up leader.

I like the idea that gannondorf has a Termina counterpart that doesn't appear in game, kind of like how the king of Hyrule is clearly part of OoT's backstory but doesn't appear in game. It always seemed to me like the garo were fairly powerful in whatever nation they come from, so if there's a higher-up leader than the garo master(s), I imagine that could possibly be a gannondorf counterpart.

As far as Nabooru goes, Aveil kind of fills her spot story-wise, even though her character model is based on a different gerudo from OoT. Some sages like Saria and Rauru don't have obvious counterparts, but then Ruto and Darunia do so it's hard to say.



Another pertinent point about the garos is that they seem to have had some interaction with Gorman brothers, since the Gorman brothers carry garo masks. In OoT, Ingo, the Gorman counterpart also falls under gannondorf's influence. Interesting...

 

[YIGAhim]

Link, Zelda and the Dorf don't have counterparts due to who they are. The Chosen Ones by the triforce.

Then what about Ravio? From ALBW
He's A Link counterpart, right?

 

[Jirohnagi]

Then what about Ravio? From ALBW
He's A Link counterpart, right?

Lorule was a direct counterpart. Literally a mirror of Hyrule. Termina was not as it had it's own people it seemed similar but was not.

@the walrus cat i like your reasoning ^^, it's coherent and it makes ya think. I ain't gonna argue with this because to be fair you've gotten your point across and made me actually think instead of being a stick in the mud even while i was arguing against ^^.

 

[DragonEleven]

Lorule was a direct counterpart. Literally a mirror of Hyrule. Termina was not as it had it's own people it seemed similar but was not.

Lorule did deviate from that original mirror image of Hyrule after it's Triforce was destroyed, though... and there are hints of there having once been a Triforce in Termina as well, so it could simply be another mirror image that had deviated even further.
Not sure what you mean about the people of Termina, seeing as that is basically what is being discussed, but the people of Termina seem to be just as much counterparts to the people of Hyrule as the people of Lorule are.

 

[Jirohnagi]

@DragonEleven No the people of Termina developed differently than the people of Hyrule. Those two worlds run parallel to one another, only two cases of crossing have occured. Skull Kid and Link. You're using Lorule as a stupid counterpart, Lorule was a mirror not anything else.

In fact it is, to use a bit of zelda phraseolgy, a dark mirror. Everything is twisted and reflected wrong.

Also i point this out, using lorule to try and substantiate anything related to termina doesn't work. Two entirely different games and the only similarity between those games was connecting to hyrule.

 

[DragonEleven]

@DragonEleven No the people of Termina developed differently than the people of Hyrule. Those two worlds run parallel to one another, only two cases of crossing have occured. Skull Kid and Link. You're using Lorule as a stupid counterpart, Lorule was a mirror not anything else.

In fact it is, to use a bit of zelda phraseolgy, a dark mirror. Everything is twisted and reflected wrong.

Also i point this out, using lorule to try and substantiate anything related to termina doesn't work. Two entirely different games and the only similarity between those games was connecting to hyrule.

You're not following the point I'm making, and seem to be missing part of Lorule's history.
Lorule wasn't always that dark mirror of Hyrule... in the game itself they say that it was just like Hyrule until their Triforce was destroyed... then Lorule changed.
Termina could likewise have once been a mirror of Hyrule that lost it's Triforce, changing as a result, similar to Lorule, but with a different outcome.

 

[Dizzi]

hmm interesting that makes me think.... but termina doesn't seem to have a triforce...

 

[Jirohnagi]

You're not following the point I'm making, and seem to be missing part of Lorule's history.
Lorule wasn't always that dark mirror of Hyrule... in the game itself they say that it was just like Hyrule until their Triforce was destroyed... then Lorule changed.
Termina could likewise have once been a mirror of Hyrule that lost it's Triforce, changing as a result, similar to Lorule, but with a different outcome.

No and no stop trying to link Lorule and Termina, this thread isn't about Lorule or anything to do with it stop pushing for your headcanon. Lorule is a mirror, or did you not read it. It was once like hyrule until it had a cataclysmic event roughly around the time Hyrules triforce split. Lorule's was destroyed, then it became quite literally a dark mirror.

Termina is parallel, it didn't have the same conventions as hyrule nor kingdoms. Termina was it's own land, yes some people and species were shared but that's down to genetics and only so many species in the multiverse.

The issue here is you went off topic to push your sodding headcanon, kindly don't and get back on topic which is incase you forgot, about Ganondorf being a likeness to a Garo.

EDIT: Removed last part of post, and made other minor edits - Jimmu

 

[DragonEleven]

hmm interesting that makes me think.... but termina doesn't seem to have a triforce...

It's lack of a Triforce is part of the point... the loss of the Triforce seems to be what triggers the change and there is evidence that there had at one time been a Triforce in Termina that has since been forgotten, with only a few instances of the Triforce symbol remaining.

Lorule is a mirror, or did you not read it. It was once like hyrule until it had a cataclysmic event roughly around the time Hyrules triforce split. Lorule's was destroyed, then it became quite literally a dark mirror.

Termina is parallel, it didn't have the same conventions as hyrule nor kingdoms. Termina was it's own land, yes some people and species were shared but that's down to genetics and only so many species in the multiverse.

You clearly don't understand the concept of parallel universes... they can change independently from one another... that is how Lorule was able to change from a mirror version of Hyrule to a dark mirror version of it.
A mirror universe is just used to describe a parallel universe that is almost identical to the original... like the reflection in a mirror.
Both Lorule and Termina are parallel universes... neither are mirror universes when Link visits them... Lorule had become a dark mirror of Hyrule, while Termina was a more warped version of Hyrule.... but both had likely been mirror versions of Hyrule in the past.

 

[Jimmu]

Please be sure to treat each other nicely when debating guys. We don't want to see any SHOUTING IN CAPS or insulting wordings in here. Even if you're frustrated, debates should be had with good facts and arguments, not with insults and shouting. We'll be keeping an eye on this to not get out of hand.

 

[Zachie]

"This is a kind of parallel world that is similar yet different from the land of Hyrule, which was the setting for "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.""
— The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask American manual

Termina is described by Nintendo as a parallel world which is "similar, but different" than Hyrule. I'm hesitant to say this means it to be a mirror of Hyrule, when in reality it differs in many ways from Hyrule. I feel like Lorule is the only true mirror to Hyrule.

On that note, though, let's try and get this back on topic.

 

[Dizzi]

I'm being a good aren't I?? but I think that there like maybe Ganon learnt to fight without shields, cuz two swords if you know how to use them are probably better than one sword and shield