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GAME THREAD: Dark Souls Mafia

Jul 7, 2021
btw Seanzie, this isn't my first game.

That should be apparent, not that it has anything to do with the content of what I've been discussing wrt to you in the first place.

Why did you lie? What experience do you have?

I try not to make assumptions. You've stated numerous things that I believe newbies think but don't fit general mafia theory, so while I thought your confidence in your thoughts/views on gameplay was unusual for a newbie, some of the stuff you have said could easily come from one, so no, it was not apparent.
Dec 13, 2019
It doesn't matter.

What matters is the content. You're entitled to think that it comes from a newbie perspective just like how I think your perspective in looking at it is warped.

Especially when you don't read Isett's post correctly/misrep him.
Jul 7, 2021
@ Seanzie

1) "Technique" is not what I would describe just saying whatever comes to your mind and running with it. It's clearly too early, as I've already indicated earlier to DW and as you've just affirmed yourself, for anything to actually catch scum. If you want to make reads off of it by all means; however, your reads are based on paper thin, opinionated perspectives with no basis in any in depth analysis because, again, still too early.

This is the same thing I threw at DW for putting pressure onto me for as if acting like you'd catch scum from any sort of trivial conversation where one feeling or another won't make or break the game. At best, you're just assuming with your interactions -- and that's fine. Just don't act like it's going to make or break the game when we've got plenty of pages and days to come upon.

2) I'm able to read just fine, and as I've stated is exactly what I observed. Isett put forth a discussion point which is something DW wanted and you've clearly indicated is just fine. Isett clearly indicated a point that is worthwhile in talking about (as has been seen with some responses) and noted that it'll help with pushing discussion. YOU made it a point to say that it is NAI -- both *town* and scum can push that kind of talking point. That's it. There's nothing else to read into that. A "vibe" that you can't quantify doesn't prove or help with a read other than it being some irrational thing you've formulated and put out there.

That is Isett's post that you keep talking about. At no point in his post is he actually *SPECULATING* about the setup of the game. That's something you entirely came up with out of nowhere on your own. What Isett proposed is offering cover for the hider by posting a simply "I targeted X if I were the hider," or some such thing.

Nothing about Isett's suggestion or post is as you put forth. So really what are you doing here? Misrepping Isett? Because that's what it looks like based on the contrast of how you describe Isett's post and the actual content of Isett's post.

And no, hard disagree. Discussion for the sake of discussion is always good because that's what town has mostly. That's all town has. And Isett's suggestion/observation certainly bore out to be true (and even on a theory point it is still true as you would be better off with actual discussion vs aimless chatter that scum can hide in). Nothing you've said here actually bears out to be the case *ESPECIALLY* when all you have are "vibes" as if that's going to help with any concrete scum hunting.

Isett, at the very least, helped put forth not only a viable topic that is worth doing as it gives PR cover, but you've gone so far as being unable to read his post and represent it properly either because you're maliciously doing it or you just made a mistake. With 40 games under your belt either could be the case wouldn't you say?


The first day is RSV/speculation short of those interactions you'd want. Isett generated that in spades, yet you saw fit to say that discussion for the sake of discussion isn't always good. Ha.

That's the basis for forming everything later on, as I touched upon previously, for town because you'll want to look back at how those people interacted or what stances they took on top of voting records.


Inconsistency is inconsistency especially if the outlook doesn't make sense/isn't backed up. Changing up a perspective you had isn't always bad, but if it comes from a place where previously that wasn't what you believed, it raises eyebrows. Anyone can be inconsistent even wolves. It also depends on the player because not all players play the same way.

Either way, wrt to DW, my judgment remains my own despite your perspective. You've offered it, and that's good enough.

5) Scum want to play it safe. Trying to be overly friendly is just as odd as doing something that attracts attention, but hey you have your thoughts and I have mine.

As for how I know you're wrong:

Because you're clearly putting more into Isett's post than it actually there. You are not doing your due diligence in actually reading his post, and then you go on to drone about how he's speculating the setup when he's clearly not.

Here's your response to DW concerning Isett's post:

Vibes -- lol.

Concrete point: Not so much. Someone else offering townie points to Isett isn't Isett's fault or problem. Isett put forth a valid discussion topic (offering PR cover) while commenting that it'll help spur his D1 reads (that's fair for him and certainly a lot better than your vibes that you had to be asked about) and it'll help spur talking as opposed to aimless chatter. That's all valid. And despite all that, it's just as you said -- NAI. Speculating setup -- which is not what Isett even suggested in the first place mind you -- is certainly NAI when the setup is known; however, Isett's talking point was about offering PR cover and going from that to judge how he'd read people over the conversation. Nothing about that is a red flag (no more so than just reading people and giving a vibe -- something I will continually hit you with as it's certainly an out as opposed to something more meaty to dig into like this entire discussion point).

Picking and choosing people who gave good or bad thoughts is no more a red flag than speculating setup (or in this case talking about PR cover and what spawns from that). There's more to be said about reading people from the resulting discussion though, and that's entirely a point in Isett's favor and a negative one in yours.

Talk of strategy: What is your point here? Never mind that you're consistently incorrect about Isett talking about setup, but Isett only posted an idea about offering PR cover which helps facilitate an environment where the PR can only put out their reads and be referred to in the event of their demise. And, correct me if I'm wrong, the hider dies when hiding behind scum so why wouldn't you want the hider to be able to effectively put out a legacy will that condemns their target in the event the hider dies behind scum?

The more I think about it, the more negative you come out looking for trying to quell/misrep Isett's post. How so? Because if you don't have a collective coordination from town to offer cover to the hider, then the hider can't freely put out their target with the rest of the town. That means the hider has to remain quiet and not talk until further into the game if they live that long. Meanwhile scum can PR hunt the hider while guesstimating who is not the PR effectively lowering their PoE. Sounds like a point in Isett's favor for offering something that is actually to the benefit of town, don't you think?

Aside from the mechanical aspect, it's not like Isett said other strategies can't be employed. You, on the other hand, have been quick to dog on Isett's proposed strategy despite your own approach of using vibes (lol).

Finally, lol to the first post is the most vulnerable.

Unvote, Vote: Seanzie

At this point you've certainly acted much more scummy wrt to everything that has come up as opposed to DW. You've earned my vote for the rest of today, Seanzie.

That isn't what was going on though? No one is doing that.

It is never too early, and I never said it was. Here is a game I caught a scum on the 26th post: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86913&start=26

Early reads are of course weaker than later ones, but that does not mean they can't be good. They just need to be re-evaluated as more information comes to light. Sorry if you are not confident in your ability to form early reads, but I am confident in mine and have won many-a-game using them (and also abandoned them throughout).

I'm not acting like anything. I stated a read, someone asked me why I had that read, I explained my thoughts. Why are you acting like this based on this progression from me? I don't understand where your aggression towards me is coming from?

There's this thing called nuance. Things are not as black-and-white as you make them out to be.

Are you nitpicking semantics here about what "speculation" means, or are you just not seeing it? They literally asked about if the hider should play like a cop/sheriff. That is setup spec. You can say "oh but they aren't speculating", but when people talk about "setup spec", that is anything to do with how we as a group should play based on the setup. That is what they were talking about?

Yes it is. I don't know what your issue with me is, but they literally asked about how we should play in the setup and said they would possibly form their reads based on how people respond, which is either bad town play or meh wolf play.

Discussion for discussions sake is not necessarily good. This game has more nuance than you make it out to have. If you wouldn't have lied to me, I wouldn't have brought that up, but I THOUGHT I was talking to a newbie so I was trying to explain some of the facets of the game to you. Constructive discussion that generates readable content is good, not all discussion does that though. Some just hurts thread health or lets wolves hide. Sorry if you don't see that, but these are pretty common considerations on the sites I play more frequently on, and considering them often leads to good game outcomes.

It is neither of those things. His post was >rand!wolf. Wolves do "helpful looking things" all the time, and wolves make those sorts of posts to enter the game all the time. Does this make him guaranteed wolf? No, but they are >rand!wolf and if I had to take a vig shot right now, I'd probably shoot them because it is currently the best lead I have on a wolf. I am curious how they'll respond to my read though.

Never said it was. DW asked me a question, and expressed that they thought 15337 was towny. I responded to DW by telling DW that I did not agree with the reason DW thought 15337 was towny, that I thought DW's reason was actually NAI. I then went on to explain why I think 15337 is >rand!wolf.

You said you were a newbie. I tried to give you some helpful pointers/things to think about to help guide your intuition about why inconsistancy is not actually wolfy. Maybe don't lie in the future, or if you do, actually take your own lies into consideration when considering the context of other people's responses to you.

This is literally about setup spec? Like I don't understand how you can both say "15337 didn't talk about the setup, but 15337 also gave a cover plan for the PR" how are they not talking about the setup there? Seriously?

You're trying to make it out like I am trying to silence setup spec. I am not doing that, and have not done that. I just stated a read on someone.

At no point in time have I mentioned anything about 15337's proposed strategy. Not once. Literally none of my words have been about the actual strategy, they have been about 15337's post.

How do you expect the game to get started if people don't work off vibes early on?

Ah, so you berate me for making an early read, saying there is tons of time left today, but you then lock your vote in 18 hours into the game? According to you, inconsistency is wolfy... soo...? Where does that leave you? Fortunately I understand nuance and won't just lock!scum you for being inconsistent in your logic.
Jul 7, 2021
It doesn't matter.

What matters is the content. You're entitled to think that it comes from a newbie perspective just like how I think your perspective in looking at it is warped.

Especially when you don't read Isett's post correctly/misrep him.

I think it does matter, so please humor me. How much experience do you have? It will help me read you to know how much you've played.

You really need to go back and reread 15337's post. They literally were asking about how we should play with regards to the hider. I don't know how that is anything but asking to talk about setup spec.
Jul 7, 2021
I went ahead and figured it out myself. You've (KoD) been playing since '06, and you just love to argue.

I'm not going to argue with you for the sake of arguing. I don't find that fun or productive, so if that's what you're trying to do here, I will disengage to protect threadhealth.
Mar 6, 2022
Available now
Reading up, I’ve got some multi-quotes that I hope it doesn’t delete ( I’m on page 4, so it won’t be much longer )
Thrse walls of constantly shifting colour are really not fun for my brain to process.

You're trying to make it out like I am trying to silence setup spec. I am not doing that, and have not done that. I just stated a read on someone.
I'm just quoting this so I can see what it says.

Does your perspective change if I also told you that I get bad vibes from you?
Can I ask you to explain this one as well? Kreal's one of my more concrete town reads at the moment I feel.

I expect consistency. That's not what you're being.

There is nothing to try our damnedest on when information is lacking. Even something as basic as a talking point, while helpful, doesn't do much without interactions, but if people agree mostly on it, then you glean nothing.

You doing that 180 is scummy in the strictest sense given you're latching onto the flimsy reasoning Seanzie is putting out there on a topic they already view as NAI despite focusing on crafting reasons, based on the very same NAI topic, to paint Isett in a bad picture without much else.

At best this shows you and Seanzie to not be scum/scum as you are the one that kept pushing for more to be said. One of you though can certainly be scum with you and your willingness to flip on something so trivial (and wrong given its basis) and Seanzie for crafting that horrible logic wrt to Isett over the topic in the first place.

Of the two, I'd go with you. In Seanzie's case it isn't uncommon (it is, in fact, very common) for town to be wrong. You, though, are just quick to sheep.

Vote: DawningWinds
When there is basically nothing, there's still a little bit of something. That's a starting place. As you discuss that starting place, the amount of something to form reads on increases. I'm not really sure what part of that you aren't understanding.
As for my 180 on Isett, I agreed with Seanzie's points about them trying to look helpful and misrepping the main benefits of bringing up a scumhunting method. I hadn't picked up on it before, but on reread, it made a lot of sense.

Vote: ExLight
I know its your birthday and you're busy but you're also obviously here so next time you decide to post make it one that takes two seconds to form some opinion on the actual discussion please.
Mar 6, 2022
Here's an idea I'd like to hear thoughts on and maybe possibly generate my entire day 1 reads list off of:

What do you think of hider cover similar to the way some people seer/cop cover (ie, if I was a cop I would have peeked player X)?

Personally I can't decide on where I'd put the cost/benefit ratio. I do have a few ideas on how to weaponize it for hunting. But overall I think the major value would be a directional talking point rather than aimless chatter.
We need everybody on board for this to work, and I think the biggest problem with that strategy is the Mafia Roleblocker preventing us from full-clearing the hider targets. That’s one of the biggest advantages of a cop, and therefore cop cover. So if everybody- and I mean everybody- is on board, then I’ll follow along. Otherwise, don’t expect me to cover.
I know this is a stupid nictpicky thing, but can I specifically request people use a light purple option in the colour picker if its gonna be purple? You can hardly read that dark purple on the Shades of Blue theme, and I'd really rather not have to highlight the names every time people do that. Light purple should be fine readability wise on every theme if I remember right?

Otherwise I guess this is a fine way of announcing this.

I do not like this post. In this setup there is no way there should be anything you need to wait for that prevents you from entering the discussion when serious discussion has begun to actually happen. Even if you are waiting for the discussion to take a certain turn, there's no reason that should prevent you from giving thoughts on what's already being discussed.
Vote: KingofDominaria
I agree that it is a bad post, but I don’t think it’s particularly wolfy.
@KingofDominaria were you attempting to disguise yourself as a new player up until you admitted it, or did you just spontaneously decide to say it when asked?
We're two pages in and all you've discussed, in no particular depth that involves previous reads or the like, is opinions on whether or not putting legacy PR targets is good to do.

To answer your question: No.

Have fun locking in your vote on me because you're not going to see anything until something worthwhile comes up for me to speak on.
This reads like wolf salt to me, especially the last paragraph; there isn’t any particular reason to believe that the person in question is going to tunnel you after one vote.
I never said it was locked, I said I'd move it if I saw something better to push.

And not even some slight feeling one way or another? On anyone at all? I don't care if its weak af I just want something. Like, "this person gives off slight vibes that they're trying to get stuff done in a towny manner" or "this person made like one post that doesn't sit right with me".

Click the three "..."s at the top and select "Who Replied?", then pick the number by the person's name.
I don't think we went into detail, but Mikey stated any setup with a cop needs a rolecop to prevent "mathmatical autowin by hypocopping" to explain Mafia's two PRs to I think Fext Which makes sense, unless the hider dies super early having their results by the time they do die will clear several people, same as a normal cop.
I quoted this to give thoughts on how good the setup was but then I realized it would clog thread so lol
Go to the page that lists all the mafia forums, look at the line for Dark Souls Mafia, there is a "Replies: 47" click on the number there, scroll down to who you want to ISO, and click on the number to the far right of their row.

Depending on where you're from, I'll warn you that it's uhh... not a great ISO system, but it is something.
Thank you part 2
Congratulations on doing something!
Unvote: KingofDominaria
I don’t like this vote at all ngl
btw Seanzie, this isn't my first game.

That should be apparent, not that it has anything to do with the content of what I've been discussing wrt to you in the first place.
...How bout we don't lie about this kinda crap? I can't see that as scummy because self-meta's often a thing wolves do to look like their contributing since its not like people can't find it anyway, so offering it honestly and easily would've be more wolfish. But please don't do this? Whether your a newbie or a seasoned player affects the mindset your content is coming from, and thus the way your content should be read so this can seriously mess with people's reads on you.
I don’t like this vote at all ngl
...I feel like I said multiple times, "I am not actually scumreading this person anymore but I am going to keep my vote there until he does something" and he did something. So.
I am still not scumreading KoD so now that he's doing stuff there's no reason for me to vote him.

This reads like wolf salt to me, especially the last paragraph; there isn’t any particular reason to believe that the person in question is going to tunnel you after one vote.
While I overall still disagree with the scumread on KoD, this is a decent point that I can see where your coming from. But to me it strikes me as in line with his argumentative playstyle and his towny-seeming not really caring about the pressure I was trying to put on him.
Mar 6, 2022
Also, regarding the setup

Would it be ok for a hypothetical Hider to CC a fakeclaim?
It’s generally not good to do that in a normal Cop13 (I think?) but since the hider has immunity to nightkills, it seems like it'd be more useful to catch the fakeclaim

Morbid Minish

Spooky Scary Skeleton.
Forum Volunteer
Oh boy first mafia game here in almost 6 months.

Tbh, I just skimmed a lot of the Seanzie/KoD back and forth.

Some of us have played with KoD so we know that he's not new. So lying there isn't scummy or anything. Can be an interesting way to see reactions I guess. Also, he and Numbers (Isett or whatever his sign up name was), are very good friends so KoD sticking up for him there doesn't phase me.

I don't think Numbers post was scummy btw. It's NAI at best. I do it as both town and scum because it's good discussion points and if you're scum you can put forth a good plan and get town cred for it.

Was a bit odd how DW jumped to reads so early without much material. I feel like I had more to say about this but forgot what it was. Will come back to it.
Them liking and then not liking Numbers based on Seanzie's post is meh. Dunno if scum would be willing to change their mindset that quick so early in the game. But also scum is also willing to latch onto things they think they can push.

Really should write down my thoughts as I'm reading because I'm forgetting a lot now. Gonna eat and come back to this.

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