Final Fantasy XV's Lack of Female Protagonists

[DoomDash]

Oh, they exist. Don't get it twisted. And yes, half of all games are played by females. But like I said, most of them are older women, not young ones in their teens, 20s or even 30s (I'm not saying being older than 30 means you're old!!!). And most of those older women are playing puzzle/casual games like Bejeweled, Candy Crush, and Sudoku. That doesn't mean they aren't playing games. It doesn't make those games not games.

What it does, though, is take the statistics out of context. No data exists in a vacuum. You have to present the data within the context in which it exists. To say that half of gamers are female is accurate, but extremely misleading if you're trying to convince someone that half of the people playing Bloodborne or Devil's Third are female.

They aren't.

Exactly this. Misleading, and intentionally so to push their agenda.

 

[SpiteChaotic]

It sucks that there are no playable/noteworthy girls in FFXV since FF girls are usually damn fine.

I see what they're doing with XV though, its a bro-mance story. Its what an FF game would be if every party member was a Cloud clone... Which they do seem to be, I'm sure a lot of people have been dying to see such a game.

Why have one Cloud when you can have several and go to American roadside cafes, play pool, have your car break down, hug (in a totally manly way) and watch the sunset together, wrap your arms around each others shoulders (in a manly way) and order steak together.... I mean, who would want to do that with a girl, right?

I'd play that game. I mean how many games show such a Bro-mance like that? As long as it doesn't go full on Brokeback mountain I'd be happy to see this story.

 

[TwiliDreamer]

Wow. That was a display of classic online hostility. Good thing I'm used to forums, or I might've taken that personally.

Disagreeing with someone else's opinion is no excuse to offend them. Much less to label them. That should be obvious, people.
You don't win an argument through intimidation. If you're fourteen, that might impress your school mates. If you're thirty, though, the only thing that achieves is showing other people you feel threatened by people with different points of view (which is quite common outside the internet, I tell you), is easy to provoke and lacks any self-control when confronted with an opinion you personally dislike.

Since a public forum is about using rethoric skills to defend positions, it has a lot in common with some skills you learn in Law School. The first thing you learn in Law School is that the truth is relative and that each point of view has its merits as well as its flaws. If you insist the other is wrong and that his point is invalid, that will work against you. It'll show you're unprepared to deal with different theories on the same subject and therefore your conclusion is considered inadequate, even if you have your facts straight.



Some considerations below:

1) Your gender DOES shape your personal experience. People aren't that idealised genderless entity some people want to believe. There are things men only enjoy doing among other men, just as activities women enjoy doing among other women.

Can a man identify with a woman's experience, and vice versa? Yes. Can he identify with ALL female experiences? The answer is no, he can't. Just as a heterosexual woman won't dig checking beautiful, scantily clad women, a heterosexual male won't dig having a gay man sit right next to him,flirt with him and finally invite him to his bedroom.

Not everything is to be experienced by both genders. Wishful thinking won't change reality to make it suit your ideal world. If you're old enough to be married or at least to share a roof with someone, you know that.

2) And yes, FFXV is a boy's club. That's an obvious observation anyone can make. It's not a sexist, SJW, left-wing, whatever you want to call it. It's plain, obvious observation.

And no, the problem isn't the game being a manly experience for men. That was some people misinterpreting my post back there and going into rage mode for no reason. In the end, they wasted their breath for nothing.
Repeating my words in the previous post, the problem lies in the JUSTIFICATION given for the game to have an exclusively all-male main cast. Again,what was the justification? That playing as a male character feels more normal to players. I'm a woman and I say: No, it doesn't. It was a prejudiced and chauvinistic opinion, which shows the overall mentality of some developers remains pretty much the same where male and female genders are concerned.

Since further dwelling on the subject is idiotic at best, I leave my opinion at that. More self-control, less online BS. Go outside, take a walk, feel the breeze, talk to people. Live life. Don't let your head get crammed with online trash, such as SJW, left-wing vs right-wing fighting and other crap. Otherwise, you'll have a heart attack every time someone IRL disagrees with you.

 

[NintendoCN]

In the Final fantasy series I find having a female character refreshing, it really shows how the videogame industry has gone from for guys, to for everyone. I think I'll compare FF XV with FF X-2 it's the same concept, except the gender are swapped.

 

[Ventus]

That playing as a male character feels more normal to players. I'm a woman and I say: No, it doesn't. It was a prejudiced and chauvinistic opinion, which shows the overall mentality of some developers remains pretty much the same where male and female genders are concerned.

guess the above wasn't my last post, but Most folks who play FF (or, well, video games as a whole) are males, Candy Crush and mobile BS be damned. Normalcy in video games is the male point of view, and I would say it's the majority opinion. Ergo, it's normal to play male characters. Just my onion, don't kill my for it

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

Wow. That was a display of classic online hostility. Good thing I'm used to forums, or I might've taken that personally.

Disagreeing with someone else's opinion is no excuse to offend them. Much less to label them. That should be obvious, people.
You don't win an argument through intimidation.

Remember folks, calling someone out for their absurd comments and incorrect statements is now intimidation. Welcome to 2016.

Since a public forum is about using rethoric skills to defend positions, it has a lot in common with some skills you learn in Law School. The first thing you learn in Law School is that the truth is relative and that each point of view has its merits as well as its flaws. If you insist the other is wrong and that his point is invalid, that will work against you. It'll show you're unprepared to deal with different theories on the same subject and therefore your conclusion is considered inadequate, even if you have your facts straight.

The truth is relative iff the evidence is vague/incomplete. When evidence presented is factually incorrect and/or when there is evidence to show one "point of view" is factually wrong, then the truth is not relative. The truth is often discernible.

Some considerations below:

1) Your gender DOES shape your personal experience. People aren't that idealised genderless entity some people want to believe. There are things men only enjoy doing among other men, just as activities women enjoy doing among other women.

Can a man identify with a woman's experience, and vice versa? Yes. Can he identify with ALL female experiences? The answer is no, he can't. Just as a heterosexual woman won't dig checking beautiful, scantily clad women, a heterosexual male won't dig having a gay man sit right next to him,flirt with him and finally invite him to his bedroom.

Not everything is to be experienced by both genders. Wishful thinking won't change reality to make it suit your ideal world. If you're old enough to be married or at least to share a roof with someone, you know that.

Of course your sex shapes your experience. Being male and being female are different. Our bodies are different, as are our minds. This is neither biology class nor psychology class, so I won't delve deeper, but suffice it to say no one said anything to the contrary.

2) And yes, FFXV is a boy's club. That's an obvious observation anyone can make. It's not a sexist, SJW, left-wing, whatever you want to call it. It's plain, obvious observation.

And no, it isn't a "boy's club". It's a game with an all-male protagonist cast. If that makes it a boy's club in your mind, then it's 100% an internalized concept in your head. No one else's. If it bothers you, it is because there is something wrong with you.

Again, in events where the protagonist is female, or the cast is all-female, where is the problem for male players? When have those types of protagonists ever been called an "all girl's club"? When has there been outcry at the lack of being able to relate to those characters? When have gamers ever said "We just can't relate to Jade/Ada Wong/Samus/Claire Redfield because she's a woman?"

Video games are about removing yourself from reality. They're about assuming another identity. You become the character on screen. You control his or her movements, actions, etc.. You don't have to relate to the them to control them. The relating aspects come into play through story-telling.

Story-telling can make character motives more clear or more ambiguous. It can reveal the thoughts/feelings of the protagonist. Story can make a protagonist more or less relatable, depending on how the story goes. I've played games where I didn't like the main character, sex notwithstanding. It has nothing to do with the sex of the avatar. Relate-ability comes through story telling, not by sex of the characters.

If the story teller feels that having an all-male cast will provide a better story, because the characters will be able to "be themselves", and not have to change to accommodate a female character, that isn't sexist. If the story teller feels that these characters will be more approachable to the gamer, that isn't sexist.

Repeating my words in the previous post, the problem lies in the JUSTIFICATION given for the game to have an exclusively all-male main cast. Again,what was the justification? That playing as a male character feels more normal to players. I'm a woman and I say: No, it doesn't. It was a prejudiced and chauvinistic opinion, which shows the overall mentality of some developers remains pretty much the same where male and female genders are concerned.

The problem with going back and trying to say that you said something you didn't say is that we can all go back and re-read what you wrote and see that this isn't what you said. And if this is what you meant to say, well, that's a different issue. Because what you said and what you meant to say are different.

You didn't complain about the justification. You made a couple of strawman arguments, borrowed an extremely misleading statistic, and then complained that [male] developers "just don't get it."

I'm not sure to which mentality you refer. Is it the mentality that most gamers are male? Is the idea that a business will cater to the greatest common denominator difficult to understand? Most of the people that will play this game are males. That doesn't mean that this is a game for males. It simply means the majority of the consumers that will play this game are males.

The approachability comes, not from having mostly males play the game, but from the fact that (according to the story-teller), the characters in the game will be able to "be themselves". It's this freedom to be themselves that will make the game more approachable to the player, not the fact that they're an all-male cast played by males.

The difference is subtle, but it's important.

The fact that you feel this is sexist is evidence (circumstantial) that you have been trained to view the world from a feminist view point. The only people who make a big deal out of this are those with such a mentality as yours.

It would be more forgivable for you to say "I'm a girl and I don't want to play as a boy," than to try to twist this into some chauvinistic/gender issue. That sort of regressive ideology has no place in video games.

 

[Mipha]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with this. Plenty of games only involve one gender and they aren't any better or worse.

 

[Viral Maze]

 

[Emma]

2) And yes, FFXV is a boy's club. That's an obvious observation anyone can make. It's not a sexist, SJW, left-wing, whatever you want to call it. It's plain, obvious observation.

I'm very anti-SJW, anyone else that's been here long enough can attest to that. And to me.... it 's very obvious that it's a boys club. There's so much, SO much that gets called a boys club, particularly in gaming, when it isn't. But this definitely is. It doesn't even try to hide it.

And no, the problem isn't the game being a manly experience for men. That was some people misinterpreting my post back there and going into rage mode for no reason. In the end, they wasted their breath for nothing.
Repeating my words in the previous post, the problem lies in the JUSTIFICATION given for the game to have an exclusively all-male main cast. Again,what was the justification? That playing as a male character feels more normal to players. I'm a woman and I say: No, it doesn't. It was a prejudiced and chauvinistic opinion, which shows the overall mentality of some developers remains pretty much the same where male and female genders are concerned.

That's what I thought. I can accept the concept of the game. Yeah, guys having fun on the road, taking a trip together. It's a regular situation real people have done. But the explanation.... the explanation was just absurd. I reject out of hand that because I'm male, I HAVE to identify only with men, and that I can only identify with male characters, therefore, I have to choose male characters to play and it games without a choice have to have male leads. I just.... no it doesn't work that way. I'm not going to automatically identify with someone just because of their gender. It all depends on the sitaution, or the exact experiences going on. Not everyone is going to have the same experiences. There are going to be some things in every person's life that just doesn't click with someone else. So this whole "I HAVE play as my gender" thing is nonsense. In particular how that ignores games with only female leads, AND how that completely ignores female gamers. Maybe there are less than male gamers. But that should not mean they can't speak for themselves.

Given the choice, I prefer to play as female because I'm so sick and tired of being told that as male, the only logical thing is to play as male. With so many games forcing it.... I'm just tired of it. I'll identify who I want to identify with. I don't want anyone telling me who I should be identifying with. So many times even when I simply ask someone else what gender they like to play as, so many are just confused by the question. Like: "Buy I'm a guy..... I don't understand, why would I play as anything else?" I don't know how many are actually honest about that, and how many just think that's what they're supposed to say and are ashamed by it.

 

[Deleted member 81859]

The plot is about a prince of a powerful nation getting to have one last fun adventure with his buddies before he is thrust into responisibility. Or at least, until **** hits the fan halfway through the road trip. The road trip is the equivalent of Noctis's bachelor party. Not only that, but as a future king he is surrounded by those he trusts most. The game's main theme is Brotherhood. Why would we need playable female characters in this narative? I'm certainly not offended. Hell, FFXIII had a mainly female cast and it sucked. As a woman, why should I need female characters to make me feel more powerful? What's even the logic behind that? They're JUST FICTIONAL CHARACTERS.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

I don't understand, why would I play as anything else?" I don't know how many are actually honest about that, and how many just think that's what they're supposed to say and are ashamed by it.

i know i am...ashamed

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

I'm very anti-SJW, anyone else that's been here long enough can attest to that. And to me.... it 's very obvious that it's a boys club. There's so much, SO much that gets called a boys club, particularly in gaming, when it isn't. But this definitely is. It doesn't even try to hide it.

Is it a boy's club because the characters are all male? From story perspective, then yeah, the protagonists are in an all boy's club. But that's part of the story. The game isn't an all boy's club. That's silly.

I reject out of hand that because I'm male, I HAVE to identify only with men, and that I can only identify with male characters, therefore, I have to choose male characters to play and it games without a choice have to have male leads.

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it say that "because we are male players we will identify with male characters". That's not what it says. It says, "The characters will be more relatable because they'll be able to be themselves without having to change for a female character. They're more relatable that way."

I just.... no it doesn't work that way. I'm not going to automatically identify with someone just because of their gender.

Well technically, yes, you do. We're programmed to be drawn to people who are like us. A little off topic though.

So this whole "I HAVE play as my gender" thing is nonsense. In particular how that ignores games with only female leads, AND how that completely ignores female gamers. Maybe there are less than male gamers. But that should not mean they can't speak for themselves.

What? Where are you getting this? No one here said that. The quote you provided doesn't say that either.

Given the choice, I prefer to play as female because I'm so sick and tired of being told that as male, the only logical thing is to play as male.

The fact that some games even allow for you to choose is evidence that no one is telling you that you have to play as a male or that the only logical thing is to play as a male.

The fact that, often, the game will have subtle differences depending on which sex you choose is evidence that the developers may have even intended for you to experiment with different sexes.

With so many games forcing it.... I'm just tired of it.

It's not forced. It's an artistic/gameplay decision. Just as choosing to have a female protagonist is a decision that comes about by assessing the story, the gameplay, the context, etc.. All games could easily have only female protagonist and most of them would work just fine. If Mario was Maria instead, it would have no impact on the game. Maria could jump and break blocks and stomp on mushrooms and turtles.

Other games do have a story that necessitates picking the protagonist's sex more carefully. It is those games in which we are given a character to play. They are not an avatar, like in Mass Effect, for us to control. In some games, the character already comes with baggage and a past. We are merely a part of their story.

In this game, we are a part of the story of these 4 boys/men. The story is based around 4 males. It is necessary for the story the developers want to tell us for the main characters to be male.

I'll identify who I want to identify with. I don't want anyone telling me who I should be identifying with. So many times even when I simply ask someone else what gender they like to play as, so many are just confused by the question. Like: "Buy I'm a guy..... I don't understand, why would I play as anything else?" I don't know how many are actually honest about that, and how many just think that's what they're supposed to say and are ashamed by it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong, or weird, or strange, or odd, or narrow-minded for male players to want to play as male characters. If I'm a male and I create a character and it's a male, that's normal because I'm a male.

If I want to create a female character and experience the game as a female, that's a different story. I'm not a female. Most games don't actually treat male and female characters differently enough to actually warrant a playthrough with a character of a different sex, but some do have subtle gameplay variations that make it interesting to do so.

In the end, it's really an aesthetic choice. Armor is designed differently. Maybe the voice is less annoying. Or maybe, just maybe, a dude doesn't want to be starting at the butt of a male avatar for 40+ hours. Whatever the decision, it's the decision of the player in those types of games.

Some games let us write our own story. Stormcloak or Empire? NCR or Caesar's Legion? Kaiden or Ashley? This isn't one of those games. This is a game where we are being told a story, not writing our own story.

 

[Emma]

Is it a boy's club because the characters are all male? From story perspective, then yeah, the protagonists are in an all boy's club. But that's part of the story. The game isn't an all boy's club. That's silly.

It is because the justification said it is. And explicitly made a point to say that having it be all male characters would make it more relatable for everyone.

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it say that "because we are male players we will identify with male characters". That's not what it says. It says, "The characters will be more relatable because they'll be able to be themselves without having to change for a female character. They're more relatable that way."

Only to certain people. Not everyone changes when they're around the opposite sex. To say that it's always the case is very disingenuous.

Well technically, yes, you do. We're programmed to be drawn to people who are like us. A little off topic though.

Not everyone works the same way. You can't tell people it has to be this way. A lot of people never consider gender when they're identifying with someone. Your experience is not by default, the norm.

What? Where are you getting this? No one here said that. The quote you provided doesn't say that either.

Because it's said constantly around this kind of issue and it's plainly obvious in what people say here that you HAVE to identify with your gender. You literally just said it's more natural to do so.

The fact that some games even allow for you to choose is evidence that no one is telling you that you have to play as a male or that the only logical thing is to play as a male.

The overwhelming majority don't let you choose at all. Outside of BioWare and Bethesda games, I can count on one hand the number of games I've played that give you a choice. The vastly overwhelming majority force a particular one on you.

The fact that, often, the game will have subtle differences depending on which sex you choose is evidence that the developers may have even intended for you to experiment with different sexes.

Fallout 4 is the only game, the only one, that ever made any real difference between the male and female choices of protagonists. Every single other game that lets you choose has no "sutble differences". They're the exact same person either way and gender doesn't affect it in the slightest. Only Fallout 4 ever experimented with making the two gender versions their own individual people with unique personalities or any kind of differences between the two.

It's not forced. It's an artistic/gameplay decision. Just as choosing to have a female protagonist is a decision that comes about by assessing the story, the gameplay, the context, etc.. All games could easily have only female protagonist and most of them would work just fine. If Mario was Maria instead, it would have no impact on the game. Maria could jump and break blocks and stomp on mushrooms and turtles.

Artistic integrity is all well and good. But that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree when they say that a male character will be more relatable to audiences.

There is absolutely nothing wrong, or weird, or strange, or odd, or narrow-minded for male players to want to play as male characters. If I'm a male and I create a character and it's a male, that's normal because I'm a male.

If I want to create a female character and experience the game as a female, that's a different story. I'm not a female. Most games don't actually treat male and female characters differently enough to actually warrant a playthrough with a character of a different sex, but some do have subtle gameplay variations that make it interesting to do so.

Wow... you got that completely backwards. You just acted like I said the awkward thing was to admit you like playing as the same sex. No, no no. Shows you didn't read what I said at all. The awkward thing is admitting you play as the opposite sex. So many people are ashamed of that and think it's somehow wrong that they like it. And people like you trying to stress that it's more natural and more appropriate to play as your own sex isn't helping this at all.

 

[Seth]

The problem I have with these kinds of controversies is that it doesn't matter if the point is legitimate or not, because you can't force someone to change their art. If you do, it doesn't change the issue anyway. I can understand the concern of the portrayal of women and minorities in video games, however if you want that to change it has to be a cultural shift. Art reflects the time and culture it is created in. Even the most progressive barrier-shattering art is still a product of it's time in some form or another. If these things are to change it has to be a cultural shift, forcing an artist to change their vision doesn't really do much in that regard.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

It is because the justification said it is. And explicitly made a point to say that having it be all male characters would make it more relatable for everyone.

It's more relatable not because they're male characters. It's more relatable because, since they're all male characters, they're allowed to be themselves. It's that freedom to be themselves that will make them more relatable. That's what the quote said.

Only to certain people. Not everyone changes when they're around the opposite sex. To say that it's always the case is very disingenuous.

Not everyone works the same way. You can't tell people it has to be this way. A lot of people never consider gender when they're identifying with someone. Your experience is not by default, the norm.

My personal experience has nothing to do with it. It's psychology. We are programmed to flock to people like us. That's not an opinion.

Because it's said constantly around this kind of issue and it's plainly obvious in what people say here that you HAVE to identify with your gender. You literally just said it's more natural to do so.

Just because it is in our nature to do so does not mean you have to. Not the same. You're allowed to expand your mind and fight your natural instincts. In fact, it can be a very liberating thing.

For example: being a young adult male and going to a group of females to talk to them is incredibly hard to do and takes a lot of internal courage. It's much easier to just hang out with the other guys, which is what most young guys do.

The overwhelming majority don't let you choose at all. Outside of BioWare and Bethesda games, I can count on one hand the number of games I've played that give you a choice. The vastly overwhelming majority force a particular one on you.

Correct. And sometimes it's an artistic decision. Most of the time it wouldn't matter if we had a male or female protagonist, but sometimes it does.

Fallout 4 is the only game, the only one, that ever made any real difference between the male and female choices of protagonists. Every single other game that lets you choose has no "sutble differences". They're the exact same person either way and gender doesn't affect it in the slightest. Only Fallout 4 ever experimented with making the two gender versions their own individual people with unique personalities or any kind of differences between the two.

Wrong. Games do have subtle differences when you play with different sexes. Morrowind had slight stat differences. Mass Effect has romantic interest differences. Fallout has certain perk differences. They're not big or important or game-changing. They're subtle. But they're there.

Artistic integrity is all well and good. But that doesn't mean we're not allowed to disagree when they say that a male character will be more relatable to audiences.

Again, not because they're male. But because they're allowed to be themselves and not accommodate a female character. At least that's the idea behind it what the quote said.

Wow... you got that completely backwards. You just acted like I said the awkward thing was to admit you like playing as the same sex. No, no no. Shows you didn't read what I said at all. The awkward thing is admitting you play as the opposite sex. So many people are ashamed of that and think it's somehow wrong that they like it. And people like you trying to stress that it's more natural and more appropriate to play as your own sex isn't helping this at all.

I've never met someone that was ashamed of admitting they played as a female if they did so. I've met plenty of people that say they usually play male characters because they're male, but I've never met anyone that was aghast at the very idea of playing as a female character.

Now that is just my experience. Obviously I don't speak for gamers as a whole, but in my experience, it doesn't seem to be some widespread issue.

In fact, I've heard tell of male characters playing as female ones so that they can get free stuff from other gamers. But that's neither here nor there.

Again, the issue seems to be that he felt the need to justify himself. This would be a non-issue if simply he had said nothing.