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Few Questions About First 6 Zeldas

MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Location
U.S.
Exactly as you said about Minish Cap. It is the origin of VAATI and the FOUR SWORD. That doesn't mean it can't occur on the same timeline as legends of Ganon and the Master sword. In fact, that makes it more likely to do so. I can't give a strong argument against it being in a different timeline, because I can't think of any argument for such a placement that I would be able to refute. I submit the same challenge. If you feel so strongly that is where it goes, tell me why. What are your reasons (excluding the hat clause, which I already know.)
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Just did. You don't want to accept it though. I gave proof as to why but all you give is just your opinion.

It was stated that MC was before FS, FS is before FSA, FSA is before ALttP, and that ALttp is before LA. And since this is stated, Ganon's backstory is different on ALttP. ALttP can't fit on the Adult timeline because the maidens are the decendants of a set of past sages. All the maidens were human, none were of goron or zora. For Ganon, he shares a similar story to OoT's but then it says that he was expelled from the Gerudo Tribe by breaking their taboo and exploring the Desert Pyramid. Near this time, TP would be going on. MC,FS,FSA,ALttP,and LA fit together right behind the other. This whole set cannot be fit after SS or OoT.

MC shows a hero without a cap in it's intro. The whole story is about a magic cap. The cap is nessessary for the whole game. When you beat the game, the magical cap gives Link his trademark headgear that would be carried on for generations. Vaati was fighting to possess the cap. Just like ppl were fighting for the triforce in other games. It granted the wishes of the wearer. The cap is what saved Hyrule. The game's whole theme is cap, cap, cap. You can ignore it all you want but it is what it is. So yeah, someone would pass down the legend of a cap. This cap. An all powerful cap. No Link in any other zelda was capless. Therefore, minish cap can't come after any game that is out right now. What would be the importance of Elzo, the magical cap, giving Link a cap at the end of the game then? It's pretty straight forward... Every minute of the game has high emphasis on the cap.

And by your logic of "you can't take a picture of stained glass in the intro of MC seriously" that means that we can't take WW or any other zelda with an intro seriously either... which fails bcause every single one that has it is important and tells a story of what happened previously or in a previous generation.
 
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Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
In LttP, the Master Sword is indeed laid to rest forever. This was something they could have changed if they wanted when they re-released it on GBA, but didn't. It is the last game of the Master Sword's saga. This is very much the case.

Regardless of whether or not MC is first because of a hat, there is something curious that MC (and the FSS) lacks that OoT does not: Knowledge of the Triforce and the 3 Goddesses. Heck 3 women enter town in MC named after these Goddesses said to have created Hyrule and no-one bats an eye. In fact, half of LttP is the same; the Light World doesn't refer to the Triforce by name, only the Golden Power or other such titles. The actual details of the Triforce itself are a mystery, the name first being dropped when you talk to someone in the Dark World near the first Palace. Even OoT at least carries some more common acknowledgement of the creation story.

The one thing that could make-or-break the possibility of a third split, further back in the timeline, is Skyward Sword. For any game to go before or alongside OoT, it'd need to fit into the niche created by the new game. That is where one could get their evidence, or their counters. It's the only reason I haven't been openly public about my version of shinra's theory myself. I'm waiting to see what SS brings, since MC's backstory at least has some strong hints of from-the-sky origins, and the people of the Sky in the GBA game sound like they did what Hylia is supposed to have done in SS.

I'll say this though: If what I -- and shinra -- are thinking is right we can also say that Anouma hasn't retconned any interviews without having stated so publicly. ;) Though OoX still poses a problem.
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
I personally believe the Oracle series come after Twilight Princess. Then proceeded by Minish Cap and it's series. At the end of TP, the Master Sword is laid to rest and Link rides off from Ordon. In the start of the Oracle games Link is shown riding Epona through the land and he comes across a castle. My second reason for believing this is that out of all the Link's only two of them develop the Triforce on their hand that remains there which would be AoL Link and Twilight Princess Link. Also, in Minish Cap, the oracles come into the town, which means that they'd have to be right before, or right after the Oracle series, I'm going to give it to right after for simplicity reasons. Now there's the whole debate that could spark about incarnations and such but I'd rather not get into that now, it's the best I got and it really makes sense to me.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Also, there may be a time where Nintendo would make a game with a completely hatless hero that would link that 2nd line somewhere to/after the first since MC recollects a previous hero's time but no game matches to it. Until then, I just can't seem to find a match to it.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Most to shinra358

The line "and the Master Sword sleeps again ... FOREVER" is indeed featured in AlttP. Nevertheless, AlttP/OoX/LA is a popular combination. My own way to justify this is to propose that the Master Sword in OoX is not the Master Sword from AlttP, on account of it being acquirable in several ways, inlcuidng the older sword being upgraded to it. The Master Sword can't be made from another sword and be drawn from a pedestal.

These are the arcs we know of:

--------/---WW/PH---ST
SS---OoT
--------\MM---TP

AlttP---LoZ/AoL
TMC---FS/FSA

(AlttP/LA or AlttP/OoX/LA are possible to claim as being confirmed, but it's very debatable)

The question is how we are going to combine these arcs. Since Aonuma said that all games take place on one timeline (and remember that he has always seen the split timeline as two endings to OoT), we know that the other Zelda games either follow one of the branches or preceeds OoT. The original timeline looked somehting like this:

OoT---AlttP/(LA)---LoZ/AoL

The question now is what happened to AlttP after TP and WW. On which timeline did it end up on? FSA has very strong connections to AlttP, which many people use to link them.

/Blue Window
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
The games that are linked to ALttP by word of the director can't follow TP which is why I can't see ALttP following TP. Considering the time periods in between most of the games. In OoX, it's the same master sword or else they would have called it something else. In FSA, the sword is left in the woods at the end. In OoX you can get it in the woods (but it is not Hyrule I think) or you can get it from Farore which is one of the oracles. You would have had to beat one of the games at least once in order to get the password to get it. It will only appear in the woods if you get your swords out of order. As for why the Farore has it; in other games, she is one of the gods and she has similar power here. So she could have teleported it to you. If it was a different master sword, it would not have the title "the Legendary Master Sword". Meaning it was used before and has had some triumphs which create stories across generations. Which we can say would be the same sword that every generation of Link has had. If the director was serious, even though we know they are lying about them already having a timeline because if they did, we sure would have had more zeldas have all this time, then we may not have all that games that will connect everything yet. Most of the 2D zeldas were made by different companies anyway so I really doubt they intended those to really be part of any story. But since the director will be 'patching' the story with each new game, we'll have to wait and see.

As Eiji has said though, MC - FS - FSA - ALttP definitely link closely together.

Take note that in my timeline, all the 3D ones are together with 3D games while all the 2D ones are with 2D games. I just realized that :P. Maybe that will have some significance later on.

Also, scrolling back to OoT for a split second, Link places the sword back in the pedestal himself because at the end of the game, Zelda says "You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time... However by doing this, the road between times will be closed" - just saying.
 
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MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Location
U.S.
The full quote at the end of the game:

"You must lay the Master Sword to
rest and close the Door of Time...

However, by doing this, the road
between times will be closed...

Link,
give the Ocarina to me...
As a Sage, I can return you
to your original time with it."

Even if he does replace the master sword, it doesn't send him back in time. Else Zelda wouldn't need the Ocarina to do so. Maybe the magic that made it change times was broken when Ganon was defeated? I don't know, but either way the MS is not what sends Link back to his childhood.

About OoX. No, you can't get the master sword in the woods. If you can, it's a glitch, and therefore not canon. I don't believe it can be upgraded from the older sword either. Maybe you're thinking of the Noble Sword? I also don't think you can say that Farore "has similar power here" as in other games. I don't see her creating life and nature. All I see is a woman living inside a tree that "makes secrets (or codes) take form."

About ALttP. I still don't see why it can't fit on the AT. The backstory issue with Ganon doesn't seem to exist, as all they say about him was that he was the king of thieves who rediscovered the sacred realm. The maiden's issue... Just because the sages awakened in OoT doesn't mean all the sages are descendents of these ones. There could be new sages, as can even be seen by the fact that in WW (which comes after OoT) there are only sages of Wind and Earth, neither of which are in OoT. We don't know what happened to all the others, and it's definitely possible that one of the sets happened to be all human/hylian.

Also. I don't believe it has ever been confirmed by the creators of zelda that FSA comes before ALttP, it's just a generally assumed idea. I really don't believe they've ever said that MC/FS/FSA/ALttP/LA fit right after each other. In fact I'm pretty sure they don't. FS/FSA and ALttP/LA (though now not entirely true) are the only confirmed pairs. Again this is as far as I know. If you can show me a quote I'll believe you.

About MC. The only reason you gave me before I asked is that it tells the origin of Vaati and the FS, and the hat clause. After I asked, the only answer you gave was a paragraph about the hat. While now I do acknowledge that there probably was a hatless hero at some point in time before MC, I still don't see why it can't have happened at some point after SS, or even during SS itself. This is probably a question only the release of SS will clear up very well.

All I can say is that this: "You don't want to accept it though. I gave proof as to why but all you give is just your opinion" is not true. I rebutted every reason you gave me (which was 2) and I still don't think either of them are convincing enough to prove that MC has to be on a timeline by itself. And even if MC and FS/FSA are, that doesn't necessarily mean ALttP and LoZ/AoL are.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
It sends him back in time normally when he places the sword in. Zelda playing the ocarina makes his travel go back to an earlier time. The time before his questing disturbed the normal flow of his life. If Zelda did not play the ocarina, he would have gone back in time to the period where Zelda was still kidnapped. Since Zelda played the ocarina, it allowed Link to go back to the point in time before Zelda was kidnapped.

Master Sword
Master Sword-oracle.png

Main article: Master Sword

The Master Sword the most powerful weapon of both games. It can only be obtained in a Linked Game.

If Link does not have the Noble Sword when he normally receives the Master Sword, he will receive the Noble Sword instead. In this case, Link will get the Master Sword from the Noble Sword’s location.


Noble's sword location is in Restoration Wall, which is still close to the forest.

So no, I am not wrong.

The human Farore is best known as the Oracle of Secrets. Due to their identical names, similar personalities, and symbolism, it has been theorized that she is an incarnation of the goddess Farore. She is the third Oracle alongside Din and Nayru.

about ALttP: because that whole line of games connected to ALttP cannot fit behind the AT. Minish Cap can not connect to ST. (I'm surprised I never heard you say how silly of a concept that ST is XD. Try telling that to a later generation ^_^). In WW, Ganon dies (stabbed in head and turned to stone and then buried in water). In the ALttP line, Ganon returns in FSA with a story saying that he was kicked out of the Garudo. They do not mention him dying in FSA's bg story. And if the ALttP line was to come after WW, then they would have told the story of how Ganon got out of that stone from under water and took the sword out of his head. PLUS, the master sword is in Ganon's head, in the stone of Ganon, under water. While the ALttP line of games, the master sword is not. That's 2 more reasons for ya. FSA is both a continuation of the Four Sword arc and a precursor to A Link to the Past. They even bundled the first four swords with ALttP. Out of all the games, why bundle it with ALttP~ Minish Cap takes place before ALttP and FS and FSA are the sequels to Minish Cap.

The Minish Cap takes place long before Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures. If the Palace of the Four Sword (the bonus dungeon featured in the Game Boy Advance port of A Link to the Past) is interpreted as canon, then The Minish Cap also takes place some time before A Link to the Past.
Even if you divide ALttP/LA and MC/FS/FSA, it still won't fit.

FYI, the adult timeline really doesn't exist. Because the future cannot continue as the director said it could. So although it is in the adult timeline, it never happened and is like the Marvel what'if comics. WW, PH, and ST are invalid. Doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about but just sayin xD. *Say what you will, physics are physics*.
 

MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Location
U.S.
They bundled Four Swords with ALttP because they both came out at the same time. Just like they gifted LoZ collectors edition with WW pre-order: because they came out at the same time. I still don't get why MC can't happen in between SS and OoT. I haven't heard any good defense for this.

Physics doesn't have anything to do with alternate universes, that would be like string theory and other stuff like that. Besides the fact that no one has ever discovered an alternate universe yet, and therefore, you can't prove anything. Besides, the way I once heard alternate universes explained was that whenever somebody makes a major choice that would affect the world, two possible universes come out of it. They both have a past, because it's the same past, it's just that because of the choice the person actually made, only one of them would actually be accessible were someone from before the choice to travel to the future after the choice. This is exactly the situation we have in OoT. Zelda's choice to collect the spiritual stones or not leads to two futures.

FYI, there can be more than one Ganon. Or, more likely, more than one Ganondorf. The OoT/WW one, who dies. Another, also from the gerudo tribe, who becomes Ganon in FSA (and ALttP? Or maybe another is needed for that). I can't really think of why you would need more than two, but I think it's definitely possible that Ganondorf is reincarnated in the same way Link is, only not as often. I know there's not really evidence for it, but there's nothing against the fact that Ganondorf is the champion of some sort of "dark" god(dess) in the same way Link is the champion of Din, Farore, & Nayru. Either way, it's possible not all Ganon(dorf)s are the same.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
ALttP has been out since 1992 on Snes. In 2002 FS came for the gba bundled with a port/remake of ALttP with different developers (Capcom and Grezzo).

MC can't happen in between SS and OoT because SS Link has a hat already and in the intro of MC, the hero is hatless. If SS was a prequel to MC, then they would have said that. Instead, they said it was a prequel to OoT.

That time theory is only applicable if 2 of 1 person is in the same time period together.

Right now I only see 2 Ganons.

Link is not reincarnated. The Links are ancestors of each other. If he was reincarnated, he wouldn't have different backgrounds in almost each game.
 

MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Location
U.S.
Okay, I didn't necessarily mean reincarnated, but sort-of, I did. I know all the Links are different and are ancestors of eachother and whatnot, but I still think, partially, the "hero" part of Links mind is what is reincarnated into the next Link. Otherwise, what would happen if one of the Link's was just lazy and didn't want to save Hyrule? And just because someone is reincarnated doesn't mean they have the exact same life, just that their mind passes to a newborn when they die.

By "I only see 2 Ganons" are you agreeing with me about the multiple Ganon theory or trying to disprove my bad explanation of the alternate timeline?

I still don't think it's viable to base a placement SOLELY on the absence or presence of a hat. It might be used as a supporting fact, but needs some other points too. And I don't think they ever said SS was a prequel to OoT, they just said it's the first game in the timeline. Technically, there's still room for MC in there.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
I'm just saying that as of now I can only see 2 Ganons. So yeah, that would probably be agreeing with you. And that's if you're not counting Demise as Ganon.

I've already expressed the importance of the hat so I don't know what else to say about it :P

Since MC is a prequel to FS and FSA, and since ganon is already pig ganon in FSA, then MC can't come before OoT. And of course because of the hat XD
 

MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Location
U.S.
Demise? Who is that? And I don't think MC is a direct prequel to FS/FSA because I'm pretty sure the Links are different. So it would be possible, if we completely leave the hat out of this, for MC to come in between SS and OoT and for FS/FSA to come later down the line. Do you agree with me on that?

And btw, I still don't understand the whole Master Sword thing in OoX. Does it mean that, after you've told the secret to Farore, if you don't have the Noble Sword you'll get the Master Sword from either the pedestal in the woods or the trading sequence? If so, that would be kind of akward, because it would be a broken master sword... I still don't really understand.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
The main dude in SS.

Yes the Link's are different. But it's the Vaati Saga. MC is the first of the Vaati Saga. I think FS and FSA Link are the same but the one in MC isn't. Minish cap takes place long before four swords (no specific number). FSA takes place 'years' after FS.

If you don't have the noble sword yet and you give Farore the password, you will get the noble sword and the master sword will come from the guy at Restoration Wall. If you have the noble sword already from the guy in the restoration wall, then the password to Farore will summon the Master Sword. But more than likely everyone gets the noble sword before the master sword because you can get the noble sword through the first playthrough. You would have to beat one of the games first in order to get the password from Farore.
 

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