Expectations on bosses

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

I do want Zelda to drop the current formula it uses for bosses, yes. I just don't find any engagement in a boss I stun three times with the dungeon item and then smack with my sword a couple times. Making the dungeon item you just found the key to beating every boss removes any thought that might go into fighting that boss.

Did you find a hookshot? You're going to grapple the boss and stab them with your sword.

Did you find a bow? You're going to shoot the boss's big obvious weakpoint and then stab it with your sword.

I'm of the Dark Souls mind. Bosses should be big (or small) tough enemies that you fight until they go down. Dungeon items should be viable means of hurting the boss, but so should your sword (or the dungeon item you found two dungeons ago). Additionally, bosses should pose some sort of a challenge. Zelda (especially newer 3D Zelda games) suffer from an infestation of doormat bosses whose only purpose is to teach you how to use the dungeon item while providing minimal threat.

No, I didn't think the Ganon Blights were very interesting visually, but I found them much more interesting mechanically than almost anything else in the series, since they were straight up slugfests with no pesky dungeon items or smacking them three times with your sword.

I agree with this to a certain extent. I love the traditional boss formula of trying to find the weak point (the moment when you can spam them is always epic), but I agree it can get a bit predictable and formulaic. Trying a different type style of boss battle was a good idea especially for a game like botw that's trying to defy expectations. What I didn't like about it was how dull the bosses themselves were. It felt more like you were fighting a basic enemy type with elemental variations than an actual boss. This is where the Monk Maz Koshiah fight excelled- it was epic, exhilarating, and beautifully memorable while still operating on the same combat style as the blights. That's what I'm hoping for in botw2- that if they're going to get rid of the old battle style they'll at least keep the old fun.

 

[Ghost of Mikeys Past]

I guess I'll have to fight maz koshiah myself at some point cause it didn't strike me as the blight kind of fight

 

[Sentinel]

I do want Zelda to drop the current formula it uses for bosses, yes. I just don't find any engagement in a boss I stun three times with the dungeon item and then smack with my sword a couple times. Making the dungeon item you just found the key to beating every boss removes any thought that might go into fighting that boss.

I hope they absolute do not drop this formula. Zelda is just one of the few franchises when you can actually fight the boss via attacking his weakspots with specific items; mostly it is just about hitting the boss over and over until it is defeated - and I grew tired of it.

I mean, if you are dissatisfied with the way how easily bosses can be stunned in modern Zelda games, that's a legitimate stance which I agree but why throwing the whole formular away, let alone appreciating the terrible boss battle design of the blight ganons? A Link to the Past is a prime example why it can work differently but with the same formular. From what I grasp, your main concern is the actual - low - difficulty how easily it is to find weakspots and stunning the boss, is that right? Well, isn't that even easier in BotW? I mean, it was quite difficult finding out Armogohma's weakness meanwhile the weaknesses of Talus and Hinox were obvious af. Even Molduga was easy to find out.

Did you find a hookshot? You're going to grapple the boss and stab them with your sword.

Is it not a very simplifistic way to describe the use of dungeon items against bosses? There are few Zelda games in which it is even difficult to hit the boss with the actual hookshot, for example Arrghus (ALttP), Morpheel (only the first phase) and Argorok (TP) because the surroundings doesn't easily allow you to target the boss even.

I could also state the Spinner here which was a very creative way to battle Stallord in TP, especially in the second phase.
Imagine if we got boss battle designs like the blight ganons... Do you really believe the Stallord battle - or any other kind - would be somewhat memorable if you just bash on the boss without much second thoughts, unless the boss' attack pattern is so difficult, it's like you're playing Dark Souls?

Did you find a bow? You're going to shoot the boss's big obvious weakpoint and then stab it with your sword.

How ironic; that's what you do with every Blight Ganon lmao.

I'm of the Dark Souls mind. Bosses should be big (or small) tough enemies that you fight until they go down. Dungeon items should be viable means of hurting the boss, but so should your sword (or the dungeon item you found two dungeons ago). Additionally, bosses should pose some sort of a challenge. Zelda (especially newer 3D Zelda games) suffer from an infestation of doormat bosses whose only purpose is to teach you how to use the dungeon item while providing minimal threat.

But Zelda is not Dark Souls. The enemies' AI is much more difficult and unpredictable which makes boss battles much harder in Soulsborne games. The closest one is BotW and even then, the hardest boss - Thunderblight Ganon - doesn't even come close to the tutorial boss in Dark Souls 3. This boss battle design can perfectly work when the adventure RPG game is actually very challenging. However, I do not see to engulf the battle in a mere sword slashing act when Link has lots of item use which can be perfectly implemented in boss battles.

Dungeon items should still target the weakspots. From what I read, the main concern is that bosses are stunned too easily which I agree. Therefore, my conclusion is that stunning bosses should be much more difficult to attack their weakspot with the sword or other weapon of choice. Kind of similar to Dark Souls bosses which can be stunned after taking a few powerful blows - at least that's how I managed to taunt some huge bosses whilst attacking their weakspots afterwards. But as I said, in order to resolve this boss battle into a creative demonstration of gameplay - both with item and weapon of choice - I believe those taunting moments should only be possible if bosses get enough hits by effective items until they are totally stunned.

Also, if the criticism is about one specific dungeon item being used against a dungeon boss, the conclusion is to implement several specific (dungeon) items which can be effective against the boss, with the "main" item being the more effective option. Kind of like ALttP, seriously, this game's boss battles were amazing and difficult as well. I hope BotW2 takes a huge example of this setting.

No, I didn't think the Ganon Blights were very interesting visually, but I found them much more interesting mechanically than almost anything else in the series, since they were straight up slugfests with no pesky dungeon items or smacking them three times with your sword.

They are objectively one-dimensional bosses which can be easily slain by your sword/spear/whatever and your bow. I believe the Blight Ganons are actually the very contrast to what BotW's gameplay usually has to offer. BotW has a very creative physics engine as well as a climbing mechanism, yet we got 4 very individual humanoid bosses which can be mainly slayed by sword and bow.

Even gameplay-wise, they are lacking very hard. I only recall two Blight Ganons - Thunderblight and Fireblight Ganon - when you can actually use two runes against them but that's it. Funnily enough, the use of these runes also resolved about stunning those two Blight Ganons with one hit as well - so I don't see how Blight Ganons are apparently better in this regards. It hardly makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. At least Thunderblight Ganon fits for your enjoyment of battling boss battles and I agree this one was the best boss battle in this game if we exclude the DLC. Considering how lacklusting all other Blight Ganons are, I'm hardly impressed that Thunderblight Ganon is better in this perspective...

 

[Ghost of Mikeys Past]

Marry me

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I hope they absolute do not drop this formula. Zelda is just one of the few franchises when you can actually fight the boss via attacking his weakspots with specific items; mostly it is just about hitting the boss over and over until it is defeated - and I grew tired of it.

I mean, if you are dissatisfied with the way how easily bosses can be stunned in modern Zelda games, that's a legitimate stance which I agree but why throwing the whole formular away, let alone appreciating the terrible boss battle design of the blight ganons? A Link to the Past is a prime example why it can work differently but with the same formular. From what I grasp, your main concern is the actual - low - difficulty how easily it is to find weakspots and stunning the boss, is that right? Well, isn't that even easier in BotW? I mean, it was quite difficult finding out Armogohma's weakness meanwhile the weaknesses of Talus and Hinox were obvious af. Even Molduga was easy to find out.



Is it not a very simplifistic way to describe the use of dungeon items against bosses? There are few Zelda games in which it is even difficult to hit the boss with the actual hookshot, for example Arrghus (ALttP), Morpheel (only the first phase) and Argorok (TP) because the surroundings doesn't easily allow you to target the boss even.

I could also state the Spinner here which was a very creative way to battle Stallord in TP, especially in the second phase.
Imagine if we got boss battle designs like the blight ganons... Do you really believe the Stallord battle - or any other kind - would be somewhat memorable if you just bash on the boss without much second thoughts, unless the boss' attack pattern is so difficult, it's like you're playing Dark Souls?



How ironic; that's what you do with every Blight Ganon lmao.



But Zelda is not Dark Souls. The enemies' AI is much more difficult and unpredictable which makes boss battles much harder in Soulsborne games. The closest one is BotW and even then, the hardest boss - Thunderblight Ganon - doesn't even come close to the tutorial boss in Dark Souls 3. This boss battle design can perfectly work when the adventure RPG game is actually very challenging. However, I do not see to engulf the battle in a mere sword slashing act when Link has lots of item use which can be perfectly implemented in boss battles.

Dungeon items should still target the weakspots. From what I read, the main concern is that bosses are stunned too easily which I agree. Therefore, my conclusion is that stunning bosses should be much more difficult to attack their weakspot with the sword or other weapon of choice. Kind of similar to Dark Souls bosses which can be stunned after taking a few powerful blows - at least that's how I managed to taunt some huge bosses whilst attacking their weakspots afterwards. But as I said, in order to resolve this boss battle into a creative demonstration of gameplay - both with item and weapon of choice - I believe those taunting moments should only be possible if bosses get enough hits by effective items until they are totally stunned.

Also, if the criticism is about one specific dungeon item being used against a dungeon boss, the conclusion is to implement several specific (dungeon) items which can be effective against the boss, with the "main" item being the more effective option. Kind of like ALttP, seriously, this game's boss battles were amazing and difficult as well. I hope BotW2 takes a huge example of this setting.



They are objectively one-dimensional bosses which can be easily slain by your sword/spear/whatever and your bow. I believe the Blight Ganons are actually the very contrast to what BotW's gameplay usually has to offer. BotW has a very creative physics engine as well as a climbing mechanism, yet we got 4 very individual humanoid bosses which can be mainly slayed by sword and bow.

Even gameplay-wise, they are lacking very hard. I only recall two Blight Ganons - Thunderblight and Fireblight Ganon - when you can actually use two runes against them but that's it. Funnily enough, the use of these runes also resolved about stunning those two Blight Ganons with one hit as well - so I don't see how Blight Ganons are apparently better in this regards. It hardly makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. At least Thunderblight Ganon fits for your enjoyment of battling boss battles and I agree this one was the best boss battle in this game if we exclude the DLC. Considering how lacklusting all other Blight Ganons are, I'm hardly impressed that Thunderblight Ganon is better in this perspective...

It's overall just a lack of satisfaction I get from most bosses in 3D Zelda games. I don't think they should rely on the system of stunning them with a weakpoint with a specific dungeon item and then slashing them with your sword three times. I'm not a fan of bosses being treated as glorified puzzles or obstacle courses. I'd rather that bosses be bosses. They should be a challenge.

I do agree that the Blights are aesthetically very bland, but they feel more mechanically interesting to me since they don't require a specific technique to beat them. While I'm not a fan of being able to just stun lock them with stasis, I like that the option is available if you took the time to upgrade your runes.

The bosses don't need to be as difficult as Dark Souls, but I'd much rather the style of the Soulsborne bosses: you make openings to deal damage and then eventually beat them down. Just having to wait for the weak point to appear just isn't much of a fight to me.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

Different then Ganon, Ganon, Ganon, Ganon and their cousin... Ganon.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

Different then Ganon, Ganon, Ganon, Ganon and their cousin... Ganon.

Glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, and glowing eyeball?

 

[Sentinel]

It's overall just a lack of satisfaction I get from most bosses in 3D Zelda games. I don't think they should rely on the system of stunning them with a weakpoint with a specific dungeon item and then slashing them with your sword three times. I'm not a fan of bosses being treated as glorified puzzles or obstacle courses. I'd rather that bosses be bosses. They should be a challenge.

I see nothing wrong in utilizing a boss battle with the kind of gameplay you're capable of, ie using your weapon of choice and item to beat the boss. Mostly, it is a battle to find weakspots as well as aiming towards them. It is not a simple "Smash the f*cker until it is dead!", you have to actively find out how to damage the boss in the first place.

I am a fan of bosses being clearly portrayed as bosses - powerful rare enemies being more unique than the average foes. Metroid did it great, Zelda as well... until Breath of the Wild.

Nowadays I see bosses of many games and I am just seriously bored. It is always the same boring and repetitive hack & slay ****. I'd rather see hundreds of traditional Zelda bosses formular battles instead of one more of the aforementioned bosses. Well, at least in most games, it doesn't require that much of equipment to beat most of those hack&slay bosses, so they're kinda save. But BotW? Hell, the overworld is your playfield of pure experiments of gameplay elements, items and much more supported by the physics engine... Making up one or two gigantic dungeon bosses in which you have to use your actual surroundings and the physics engine, ie throwing rocks with the stasis towards a boss to weaken their defence or some similar stuff, would already be a fine start!

Furthermore, your argument "They should be more of a challenge" can be easily implemented with the traditional Zelda formular as well. Just make the weakspots more tricky, give the boss more HP, make it deal more damage and more unpredictable moves, bring up more weapon varieties as well as the use of specific items - there you have your challenge. A Link to the Past, again, was quite close to it. I knew the weakspot of Helmaroc King, yet it didn't stop the boss to whoop my ass several times.

I do agree that the Blights are aesthetically very bland, but they feel more mechanically interesting to me since they don't require a specific technique to beat them.

Arrows + weapon of choice - that's how I beat them mostly.
Due to them being very boring I tried finding out ways to beat them differently; it didn't change my viewpoint that much since Ganon Ganon was still annoyingly boring.

While I'm not a fan of being able to just stun lock them with stasis, I like that the option is available if you took the time to upgrade your runes.

That's actually a mechanism to stun the boss without aiming towards their weakspot whilst giving Ganon Ganon the hack&slay experience.
They clearly regressed this stun formular what you've been criticizing so far.

You know, there were some gameplay mechanism of bosses being weak to arrows... which made the use of the bow against them quite satisfying - until BotW brought up 4 Ganon Ganons with the same mechanism. They are just as bad as the bland Divine Beasts, no love but copy & paste.

I might be really harsh on some core elements of BotW but it is necessary. I view them as huge weaknesses of the new Zelda formular and it needs to be addressed and changed. As I said, it is a clear regression in terms of bosses, especially since they're not even in common with the more unique gameplay mechanism of BotW itself. I loved Zelda bosses because they were so well tied to the physics engine, level design as well as the gameplay. When you battled one boss, you clearly felt the impact of said boss how it is connected to the game, figuratively.

The bosses don't need to be as difficult as Dark Souls, but I'd much rather the style of the Soulsborne bosses: you make openings to deal damage and then eventually beat them down.

I partially agree, they need to be more tricky but not exactly as similar as those bosses in Dark Souls: bring up more roots from the traditional Zelda bosses while looking out for some gameplay varieties from Metroid bosses or maybe other ones, as long as they stop doing the old hack & slay boss battles, I'm fine with either options.

Also, again, I can just highlight the possibility of the creative use of items here again. You can use items as well to open up the defences, I don't see the issues in here - as long as the boss battle feels creative again... Once again, it works with SoulsBorne games perfectly fine and it is alright since it fits to the gameplay mechanics but Zelda games are still built different (not in terms of quality btw). You can't just demonstrate the players a vast world with very interesting physics engine + gameplay and then throwing it away for the most uninteresting, repetitive and bland looking bosses in the history of Zelda games. Ironically, the DLC boss was a very cool boss - because it was required to use a high amount of the gameplay elements against him; and the monk was just a humanoid boss. Imagine bosses like Gohma, plant based bosses, dragons and other creatures.

Glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, and glowing eyeball?

VS

Glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, and glowing eyeball + Ganon Ganon, Ganon Ganon, Ganon Ganon and... Ganon Ganon? Another regression!

Hell, even Age of Calamity - a Zelda Warriors game! - brought a more individual design to them:

Man, I can just hysterically cry and laugh about this one, the designs are actually so bad, a Warrior's game surpassed them. Please Nintendo, my heart cannot bear one more of the Ganon Ganon guys in BotW2 anymore.

 

[Ghost of Mikeys Past]

They hated him, because he spoke the truth

 

[Sentinel]

They hated him, because he spoke the truth

They'll soon come to the acceptance, just wait for it.

 

[Ghost of Mikeys Past]

I've never seen bowsette change their mind on anything. I've given up on them entirely

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I see nothing wrong in utilizing a boss battle with the kind of gameplay you're capable of, ie using your weapon of choice and item to beat the boss. Mostly, it is a battle to find weakspots as well as aiming towards them. It is not a simple "Smash the f*cker until it is dead!", you have to actively find out how to damage the boss in the first place.

I am a fan of bosses being clearly portrayed as bosses - powerful rare enemies being more unique than the average foes. Metroid did it great, Zelda as well... until Breath of the Wild.

Nowadays I see bosses of many games and I am just seriously bored. It is always the same boring and repetitive hack & slay ****. I'd rather see hundreds of traditional Zelda bosses formular battles instead of one more of the aforementioned bosses. Well, at least in most games, it doesn't require that much of equipment to beat most of those hack&slay bosses, so they're kinda save. But BotW? Hell, the overworld is your playfield of pure experiments of gameplay elements, items and much more supported by the physics engine... Making up one or two gigantic dungeon bosses in which you have to use your actual surroundings and the physics engine, ie throwing rocks with the stasis towards a boss to weaken their defence or some similar stuff, would already be a fine start!

Furthermore, your argument "They should be more of a challenge" can be easily implemented with the traditional Zelda formular as well. Just make the weakspots more tricky, give the boss more HP, make it deal more damage and more unpredictable moves, bring up more weapon varieties as well as the use of specific items - there you have your challenge. A Link to the Past, again, was quite close to it. I knew the weakspot of Helmaroc King, yet it didn't stop the boss to whoop my ass several times.



Arrows + weapon of choice - that's how I beat them mostly.
Due to them being very boring I tried finding out ways to beat them differently; it didn't change my viewpoint that much since Ganon Ganon was still annoyingly boring.



That's actually a mechanism to stun the boss without aiming towards their weakspot whilst giving Ganon Ganon the hack&slay experience.
They clearly regressed this stun formular what you've been criticizing so far.

You know, there were some gameplay mechanism of bosses being weak to arrows... which made the use of the bow against them quite satisfying - until BotW brought up 4 Ganon Ganons with the same mechanism. They are just as bad as the bland Divine Beasts, no love but copy & paste.

I might be really harsh on some core elements of BotW but it is necessary. I view them as huge weaknesses of the new Zelda formular and it needs to be addressed and changed. As I said, it is a clear regression in terms of bosses, especially since they're not even in common with the more unique gameplay mechanism of BotW itself. I loved Zelda bosses because they were so well tied to the physics engine, level design as well as the gameplay. When you battled one boss, you clearly felt the impact of said boss how it is connected to the game, figuratively.



I partially agree, they need to be more tricky but not exactly as similar as those bosses in Dark Souls: bring up more roots from the traditional Zelda bosses while looking out for some gameplay varieties from Metroid bosses or maybe other ones, as long as they stop doing the old hack & slay boss battles, I'm fine with either options.

Also, again, I can just highlight the possibility of the creative use of items here again. You can use items as well to open up the defences, I don't see the issues in here - as long as the boss battle feels creative again... Once again, it works with SoulsBorne games perfectly fine and it is alright since it fits to the gameplay mechanics but Zelda games are still built different (not in terms of quality btw). You can't just demonstrate the players a vast world with very interesting physics engine + gameplay and then throwing it away for the most uninteresting, repetitive and bland looking bosses in the history of Zelda games. Ironically, the DLC boss was a very cool boss - because it was required to use a high amount of the gameplay elements against him; and the monk was just a humanoid boss. Imagine bosses like Gohma, plant based bosses, dragons and other creatures.

VS

Glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, glowing eyeball, and glowing eyeball + Ganon Ganon, Ganon Ganon, Ganon Ganon and... Ganon Ganon? Another regression!

Hell, even Age of Calamity - a Zelda Warriors game! - brought a more individual design to them:

Man, I can just hysterically cry and laugh about this one, the designs are actually so bad, a Warrior's game surpassed them. Please Nintendo, my heart cannot bear one more of the Ganon Ganon guys in BotW2 anymore.

Obligatory mention of the Zelda formula, but I'm always of the mind that a video game series that has gone on for so long that it has been coined a formula and whose entries can be described as "traditional" is in desperate need of changing.

Yes, it is possible to stun-lock the Blights and sling arrows at them until they fall down. I don't know if that was intended when they were designed, but it's there. The biggest difference between the stun-lock stratefy and the weakpoint strategy with every other Zelda boss is that you choose to stun-lock them. It's a choice you made in order to engage and destroy the boss most efficiently.

And yes, most other Zelda bosses are more visually distinct. I've been very clear in plenty of threads that I think the aesthetics of the Blights are underwhelming, but that they are mechanically more interesting than other Zelda bosses, since they don't follow the same "formula".

I don't like the idea of a dungeon item being the key to beating each boss, because I think that each boss should be a challenge to fight. It shouldn't come down to the same stunning it three times and then smacking it with the sword routine that they've been using ever since they moved to 3D. That sort of thing just isn't engaging to me. That's the sort of boss fight that leads me to shut my brain off, because the dungeon told me how to beat the boss just by showing me the dungeon item.

I would much rather have a boss that you just have to outfight versus a boss with a specific win condition that you won't have to think about. I don't think any pre-Breath of the Wild boss engaged me mechanically as much as, say, a Dark Souls boss has. Until BotW released, I would jokingly refer to Dark Souls 1 as my favorite Legend of Zelda game due to a structure that I more associated with Zelda games.

Now that BotW is out, things are different.

Now Dark Souls is my second favorite Zelda game.

 

[ThatCat]

I don't like the idea of a dungeon item being the key to beating each boss, because I think that each boss should be a challenge to fight

I'm suprised then that you like the blight ganons and calamity ganon, since the only one I thought was actually hard was thunderblight.

It shouldn't come down to the same stunning it three times and then smacking it with the sword routine that they've been using ever since they moved to 3D. That sort of thing just isn't engaging to me. That's the sort of boss fight that leads me to shut my brain off, because the dungeon told me how to beat the boss just by showing me the dungeon item.

Bosses can still be fun that way. Think of koloktos, its creative (you have to pull off his arms and smack his middle), its fun and fast paced, and its a decent challenge. Or Stallord, although easy, is creative, fun, and fast paced. Or Goht (my favorite zelda boss) is creative, fun and fast paced. Or even the helmaroc king, its fun to slam that birds head with the hammer, and it makes good use of the item. I do agree that there are some bad zelda bosses that fit this formula. Overgrown Celia is terrible, as well as Jalhalla, Morpheel, Twilit Arachnid, and many more are all terrible.

Overall, I have mixed opinions on Zelda bosse. There are some absolute bangers mixed with average ones and those that are just plain terrible. I hope BOTW2 introduces bosses that are fun as well as creative.

 

[Ghost of Mikeys Past]

You really had to headshot my big boi jalhalla like that

 

[The Dashing Darknut]

Bosses with unexpected weak points and the item to beat it isn’t always the one you get in the dungeon, to mix it up

That would be the best option imo