Do You Want Shrines to Return?

[Zero_Origin]

No. I mean more like Hyrule Castle's indoor interiors. They've shown they're capable of pulling it off, there's no reason to be lazy and forego it. If not that, I'd settle for previous Zelda's caves.

The strength of a seamless overworld is that you never need to load between areas. The weakness is that it takes awhile for the initial load when you start the game. However, because the underworld is so segmented, you're constantly getting interrupted and constantly need to load in and out of the overworld.

Yeah, I'm with you on wanting mini Hyrule Castle-like areas. On that note, it would have been awesome if the entrance to the fortress at Akkala hadn't been barred off and it ended up being an explorable interior and not just a tower. More places like that in the next game would be amazing.

And by not split up you mean no load screens; got it. While I didn't find the load times to be too much of an issue, it's true that the more seamless the overall experience the better.

Let us explore and find things organically. Yes, yes, it's optional, but the problem is that developers design games based on the features. If you have dowsing/sensors, the developers will design the game to assume you're using these tools. If these tools are unavailable, the developers have to build the game to assume you're not using them and get feedback based on gameplay without them, which means you need to find them through other ways, i.e. environmental hints, treasure maps, historical clues, or maybe some NPCs will tell you about hidden areas they've heard about from time to time, i.e. if you rescue them during random encounters.

I'm with you on the importance of using contextual cues/hints (which are fun to figure out, like mini puzzles) and overall would prefer those over HD rumble, if forced to choose between the two. That said, if the developers aren't lazy I see no reason why both couldn't be included, as the BlueReptile points out.

 

[Kerest]

No. Not in the manner they were presented in BotW. Maybe fewer in number, with rewards more worth searching them out (honestly, after awhile, I got tired of opening chests to get the same old crap I already had 10 million of or which was inferior to my current equipment). 124 of them was insane, and began to feel insanely pointless after awhile.

Maybe, if done in the future, far reduced in number and with greater variety in architecture style.

 

[Doc]

Not at all. I like what shrines were meant to be, a motivation for exploration. And some of the shrines were fairly interesting; both to get to and to beat. But there were so many that the good ones are easily lost within the boring or mundane. After the first few, they just became repetitive, both in their puzzles and their aesthetic. I think that you could have easily cut down the amount and replaced a few of the "blessings" with just a side quest. Especially considering some of the shrines puzzles can just be ignored by having a fire arrow.

That is also to say I don't want to see the "trade in four orbs for a heart/stamina" system return. Part of this issue for me was it limited the rewards regular sidequests could give you. Because stamina vessels and heart containers were strictly only received from shrines, regular side quests rarely gave anything worthwhile. Most rewarded you with money, which at a certain point stops mattering.

I see no issue with replacing shrines with other structures, such as caves or something similar. It will help connect them to the actual world, because as it is shrines are so disjointed from everything around them. They're aesthetic is nothing found anywhere else on the overworld.

This all along with the usual complaint that they took away from having full length dungeons. A few of those shrines could easily be integrated into a full length dungeon and expanded upon.

 

[DarkestLink]

Another thing I didn't mention is that I don't like how predictable and formulaic shrines are. There's 120 shrines, go find 120 shrines. You're done when you find 120 shrines and have the 120 spirit orbs. Same with Korok Seeds for that matter. I remember playing Skyrim the third or fourth time and discovering a new shout on that playthrough and was completely shocked. I thought for sure I had unlocked everything, how the hell did all three of those words evade me?! It wasn't even a really good shout, it was just exciting to still find something new.

 

[thePlinko]

No god please no. They were just annoying replacements to real dungeons. Controversial statement of the year: stuff like this is why we haven’t had a REAL Zelda game since Skyward Sword. I like having special items in each dungeon, I like having dungeons that actually mean something, I don’t like having 120 little 1 challenge “mini dungeons” that amount to nothing but what is effectively a heart piece and a warp point.

 

[Cfrock]

I agree with @Azure Sage (I know, Az, I'm scared too). I didn't like Shrines, but I don't think the issue I had with them was inherent to Shrines themselves. I think having fewer of them would have helped, and having at least some with more sizeable rewards would also have helped. The aesthetic of Shrines also became an issue for me after a while and introducing some variety in that regard would go a long way. I think of Halo and how a map like Blackout feels entirely different to Lockout despite having identical geography. Aesthetic ubiquity was what ruined Reach's online for me, since so many maps were community made Forge maps that were all just grey, metal walls over and over and over. Aesthetic fatigue. If it's not a term then coined it.

Shrines, to me, came across as individual rooms in a dungeon. Having a few of these one-and-done puzzle rooms would be fine in my view as long as they were a complement to more substantial dungeon content. Take four Shrines and connect them as one micro-dungeon. Take fifteen and make a mini-dungeon. Theme their look to the environment they're found in, with cave interiors in the mountains, viney, wooden interiors in forests, and glittering grottos along the coast. This diluting of dungeon content is my main issue with Shrines, and it connects to what @DekuNut said:

The thing I missed the most about BotW was the lack of regular dungeons. Most of the shrines had a very similar atmosphere. While that was purposeful, I feel like we could get more interesting puzzles and design from varied dungeons like in regular Zelda games.

Dungeons aren't just fun because of puzzles and combat, they're fun for theming. This is why Snowpeak Ruins in Twilight Princess is one of my all time favourites. I love the idea of an old mansion in the frozen mountains that served as some kind of armoury which is now home to two adorable yetis. I love that Arbiter's Grounds was a prison and now it's full of ghosts. There are implicit stories there, ideas the game doesn't need to spend time developing because the theme and aesthetic of the dungeon itself allows you the space to write it all yourself. This is why I love the Zeldas with lots of dungeons. They make me feel like I'm on an adventure more than most other elements in Zelda.

Shrines don't preclude that, but their implementation in BotW does. Combining some into bigger areas and spicing up the look of the things would work wonders. Honestly, doing that would make finding Shrines a reward in itself for me. This is another point about Shrines several people have brought up, that they do or don't feel rewarding. I did not find Shrines rewarding. They were too bland and insignificant to be worthwhile on their own, and the rewards were always too slight. A few hours in, I stopped getting excited when I found a Shrine. I started getting annoyed. And it reminded me of a point Matthewmatosis raised in his excellent video about BotW. Some players are extrinsically motivated, others intrinsically.

I actually think a lot of the puzzles were good but doing puzzles for puzzles sake does not appeal to me much I like a good reward like a boss and to further the plot at the end of my puzzling

@Deus is extrinsically motivated. He likes rewards for having done something, whether tangible or intangible.

Puzzle's are probably my favorite part of the series, and a lot of the satisfaction for me simply comes from the process of solving them, as opposed to whatever the reward is.

@Zero_Origin is intrinsically motivated. They like having done something for its own sake and are satisfied with that alone.

It was a really good point for Matthewmatosis to bring up, but I think people are a little bit more complex than the simple description makes out. I think all, or most, of us are a mix of the two, leaning more to one side than the other. I was extrinsically motivated with regard to Shrines because I wanted something from them. A good, long-lasting weapon, a new ability, some new gear. However, if Shrines were longer, if they had some theming, if some combined puzzle rooms with combat challenges, then I would find myself being pleased just with having gone through the place alone. Ocarina's Bottom of the Well (the one true BotW ) and Majora's Ikana Castle do this for me. Beating those mini-dungeons and experiencing the implicit stories they tell is enough for me to be satisfied without receiving a 'prize' at the end. The prizes are nice, but even if they weren't there, I'd have been happy.

Shrines could be like that. They just need some alterations in how they're implemented and what they are for. Generally, I like designers to try and improve or fix elements that don't work rather than say "Well, we tried," and scrap them outright. I wouldn't be against Shrines returning, just don't have as many, make some larger, and vary the themes of them. It'd go a long way for a player like me.

 

[Dio]

I agree with @Azure Sage (I know, Az, I'm scared too). I didn't like Shrines, but I don't think the issue I had with them was inherent to Shrines themselves. I think having fewer of them would have helped, and having at least some with more sizeable rewards would also have helped. The aesthetic of Shrines also became an issue for me after a while and introducing some variety in that regard would go a long way. I think of Halo and how a map like Blackout feels entirely different to Lockout despite having identical geography. Aesthetic ubiquity was what ruined Reach's online for me, since so many maps were community made Forge maps that were all just grey, metal walls over and over and over. Aesthetic fatigue. If it's not a term then coined it.

Shrines, to me, came across as individual rooms in a dungeon. Having a few of these one-and-done puzzle rooms would be fine in my view as long as they were a complement to more substantial dungeon content. Take four Shrines and connect them as one micro-dungeon. Take fifteen and make a mini-dungeon. Theme their look to the environment they're found in, with cave interiors in the mountains, viney, wooden interiors in forests, and glittering grottos along the coast. This diluting of dungeon content is my main issue with Shrines, and it connects to what @DekuNut said:

Dungeons aren't just fun because of puzzles and combat, they're fun for theming. This is why Snowpeak Ruins in Twilight Princess is one of my all time favourites. I love the idea of an old mansion in the frozen mountains that served as some kind of armoury which is now home to two adorable yetis. I love that Arbiter's Grounds was a prison and now it's full of ghosts. There are implicit stories there, ideas the game doesn't need to spend time developing because the theme and aesthetic of the dungeon itself allows you the space to write it all yourself. This is why I love the Zeldas with lots of dungeons. They make me feel like I'm on an adventure more than most other elements in Zelda.

Shrines don't preclude that, but their implementation in BotW does. Combining some into bigger areas and spicing up the look of the things would work wonders. Honestly, doing that would make finding Shrines a reward in itself for me. This is another point about Shrines several people have brought up, that they do or don't feel rewarding. I did not find Shrines rewarding. They were too bland and insignificant to be worthwhile on their own, and the rewards were always too slight. A few hours in, I stopped getting excited when I found a Shrine. I started getting annoyed. And it reminded me of a point Matthewmatosis raised in his excellent video about BotW. Some players are extrinsically motivated, others intrinsically.

@Deus is extrinsically motivated. He likes rewards for having done something, whether tangible or intangible.

@Zero_Origin is intrinsically motivated. They like having done something for its own sake and are satisfied with that alone.

It was a really good point for Matthewmatosis to bring up, but I think people are a little bit more complex than the simple description makes out. I think all, or most, of us are a mix of the two, leaning more to one side than the other. I was extrinsically motivated with regard to Shrines because I wanted something from them. A good, long-lasting weapon, a new ability, some new gear. However, if Shrines were longer, if they had some theming, if some combined puzzle rooms with combat challenges, then I would find myself being pleased just with having gone through the place alone. Ocarina's Bottom of the Well (the one true BotW ) and Majora's Ikana Castle do this for me. Beating those mini-dungeons and experiencing the implicit stories they tell is enough for me to be satisfied without receiving a 'prize' at the end. The prizes are nice, but even if they weren't there, I'd have been happy.

Shrines could be like that. They just need some alterations in how they're implemented and what they are for. Generally, I like designers to try and improve or fix elements that don't work rather than say "Well, we tried," and scrap them outright. I wouldn't be against Shrines returning, just don't have as many, make some larger, and vary the themes of them. It'd go a long way for a player like me.

Good idea for a thread there!

 

[Kerest]

I love to explore... as long as there is something to find beyond collectibles.

Skyrim, for example. That game is coming up on 8 years passing since it was released. People are still finding hidden things and secrets in its map. That joy of discovery is definitely worth the effort.

BotW lacked that. It had collectibles, shrines, bosses, and the occasional chest or small secret. But, mostly? It was empty of interesting. Entire regions of the map felt like the developers were just exhausted by the time they hit that portion and were just trying to get this game done.

 

[Zero_Origin]

The aesthetic of Shrines also became an issue for me after a while and introducing some variety in that regard would go a long way.

Yup, seems like everyone and their mom is on the same page about the Shrines needing aesthetic variation. If they do return in the next installment as bite size dungeon/puzzle solving experiences, at the very least they need themes appropriate to the regions they are found in, as you suggest. I could settle for this approach, though at this point I'm starting to lean more towards the side of "shrines" being more like mini-hyrule castle areas geared toward enemy encounters, exploration, and finding secrets. This would leave the majority of puzzle solving design space to be allocated to actual full size dungeons.

A few hours in, I stopped getting excited when I found a Shrine. I started getting annoyed. And it reminded me of a point Matthewmatosis raised in his excellent video about BotW. Some players are extrinsically motivated, others intrinsically.

@Deus is extrinsically motivated. He likes rewards for having done something, whether tangible or intangible.

@Zero_Origin is intrinsically motivated. They like having done something for its own sake and are satisfied with that alone.

It was a really good point for Matthewmatosis to bring up, but I think people are a little bit more complex than the simple description makes out. I think all, or most, of us are a mix of the two, leaning more to one side than the other.

That video review was on point, and the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation is an important one. I'd venture to say that BotW's design as a whole leans more to the side of intrinsic motivation. Miyamoto's childhood inspiration for the series (exploring rural Japan) and Aonuma's statements about "open space not necessarily being wasted space," and "hoping that exploration in itself would be rewarding," as well as the overall emphasis on player freedom certainly seem to lean in that direction. However, these decisions seem not to have sat well with more extrinsically motivated players, who tend to be vocal about their complaints with BotW in these forums.

Also, although the puzzle solving process is intrinsic, there is still a (sort of) extrinsic reward for completion. Part of the joy of a puzzle is when the solution clicks, leading to a "eureka" moment or sense of cleverness, followed by that sweet sweet Zelda "puzzle-solved chime." If that satisfying sound isn't a reward I don't know what is .

 

[Farore's Chosen]

Nope. They were boring and short and the rewards, both what lay inside and for "discovering them" were barely noticeable.

 

[HeroOfTime]

I wouldn't mind them returning, but we definitely don't need 120 of them again. Instead of them being the way to increase your stats and warp points for fast travel, they could serve as proper mini dungeons with material rewards. And honestly, in my opinion they would have to be given a complete thematic makeover. Shrines outside of the context of BotW don't really fit in, so they would have to be different kinds of shrines. Fewer and bigger would be better in that case, hidden underground in caves and in deep forests and ruins and stuff. That would be cool. So yes, I wouldn't be opposed to shrines returning, but having them be the way they are in BotW wouldn't feel right.

Well, you know it's a problem with BotW if even Azure has an issue with it (jk, jk...)

I think shrines could've worked if they had expanded on each other as Joseph Anderson mentioned in his review. Where one shrine starts the idea of a puzzle/challenge, the next shrine goes to a more advanced version of the concept, and it finally ends that sequence with a full challenge. The current shrines give you a simple puzzle, usually taking no more than 10-15 minutes to finish, and generally not challenging the player at all. I honestly liked the trials of strength and reward shrines, I'd rather just get the shrine done with than waste time on a half-ashed challenge.

But overall, I'd like them to be just gone and done with. I greatly preferred performing sidequests and such to get pieces of heart, not spirit orbs. I know the concept is kinda the same, but it really feels different. DarkestLink and Deku mentioned TES's style of caves and dungeons that had design variety and matched their terrain, and I'd really like that to come back, it was touched on a bit in TP, but BotW really had the potential to expand on this.

 

[Azure Sage]

Well, you know it's a problem with BotW if even Azure has an issue with it (jk, jk...).

I don't have an issue with how the shrines were done in BotW. I'm just saying they wouldn't make sense outside of BotW because they're very context heavy. Hence the need for change if they're gonna return.

 

[GrooseIsLoose]

Yes ! But the shrines should be made more colourful and like......some sort of mini dungeon? Rather than being something like : "Oh ! its Oman Au shrine. Hmmm...must be the tomb of the monk Oman Au"
I hated that morbid bluish grey colour in those shrines.
The concept of shrine was good cos instead of being forcibly handed with heart pieces you could choose whether u need heart pieces or stamina gauge.
I really expect the return of shrines but a change in architecture of those shrines would be great!

 

[Sheikah_Witch]

I think shrines are one and done. The trailer for BotW2 showed lack of Sheikah architecture so I don't see why they shouldn't go for new ideas instead.

 

[Archer]

I think they should go for new ideas instead of shrines. Whatever they can make work. If it’ll be good, DO IT