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Do You Eat Meat?

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
I've never met anyone who thought that. (about having to eat it every day)
I only eat meat when I feel like it or I'm hungry for something specific that HAPPENS to have meat in it.
I just eat based on whatever I'm feeling at that moment, meat or no meat. xD
I guess I'm just thinking of a few anecdotal experiences I've had. When a parent tells a child they have to eat the meat for protein to grow up big and strong and in rare cases yells at the child to eat a hamburger, it profoundly bothers me because it's not true. Knowing that people can easily get enough protein without ever eating an animal, for parents to do and say things like this amounts to brainwashing from my perspective.

Yes, People can eat LESS meat, but that doesn't mean they should stop eating it altogether. They just need to balance their diets.
It would make me very happy to know that people are eating less meat from a health and environmental perspective. From both of these perspectives stopping all meat consumption is unnecessary. If a person fishes and hunts their own meat as part of a well-rounded diet, I do believe they are just as healthy and environmentally friendly as a vegetarian. The health issues related with meat consumption are mainly due to excessive consumption as well as the fact that meat is often prepared in unhealthy ways such as fried chicken. However, from the animal rights perspective eating meat is just immoral and therefore a person would have to give up meat entirely.

I disagree. Simply because there are a vast amount of those who are not vegetarians out there that, by free will as you said, will still continue their meat eating. And no vegetarian can stop others from, eating what they like.
Now, if there was a law though, that limited the cows raised or something, then you might have a chance to put it in place, and THAT might have an effect. But a single individual cutting it out from their diet entirely isn't going to make that much difference.
I don't mean that vegetarians stop other people from eating meat, but rather that vegetarians inspire or convince others to eat less meat or give up meat entirely. I have certainly noticed my example of vegetarianism making a difference in other people's choices of diet and have had multiple family members tell me that they eat less meat now because of me. I don't really think we are disagreeing here though since you said "much difference" which accepts that there is a difference made (although very small).

And by the way, (as explained earlier), you can eat meat without it contributing to farmed animals and it would be environmentally friendly, so I'm kind of confused as to why then, one such as yourself would still ban yourself from all meat... couldn't you just eat meat that was not off of a farmed animal?
I think for me it comes down to a few reasons. First I do believe it's wrong to kill an animal unless it's necessary, and in my circumstances it is unnecessary. I also find it easier to not eat any meat than to eat meat infrequently if that makes sense. I would feel funny eating any meat at all at this point.

I don't see how it's false.
Maybe it can be survivable in a world with supplements, pills, and what technology we now have... But I'm talking in a wild sense.
If you were stranded in an uninhabited place, you would need meat and plants BOTH.
And no way is it false that we are omnivores by nature. We were born that way. We are primates, and all primates are omnivores. By Nature. They eat bugs, they eat fruit, and, there are probably a ton of stuff they eat that I don't know about, but I DO know they eat both. It's not really a choice. However, it is a choice to ban yourself from eating a food.
It would depend on what is available in the wild area that you are talking about. A vegan can get sufficient amounts of any nutrient except Vitamin B12 without eating some form of supplement or technologically altered food (such as fortified cereals). If you allow yourself to eat eggs or milk in the wild, then it would be unnecessary to eat meat. If you can't find any kind of egg or any mammal to milk in this hypothetical scenario, then you would have to eat some meat eventually to restore your body's stores of Vitamin B12. However to be fair in most places in the world today, there is absolutely no necessity to ever eat an animal. The scenario of the wild doesn't apply to me or most people in the world (although there certainly are plenty of people this would apply to). As for the omnivore debate that is just purely semantics. It depends if we define omnivore as "capable of deriving energy from animals and plants" or "eating both animals and plants." In the former definition all humans are omnivores because they can eat animals and plants, and in the latter definition vegetarians are not omnivores because their choice not to eat animals places them in the different category of herbivores. Also I do take back what I said because I incorrectly assumed the word omnivore only had the definition of eating both animals and plants. I still say that "humans need both meat and plants" is false except in much more narrowly defined circumstances. The omnivore thing depends on how you look at it.

Anyway, I know you need protein in your diet, and the best way to get it is eating meat. And, If I recall, nuts and stuff DO have protein, but not enough. (unless you eat a LOT of it) And, without technology, there are no supplements.
Meat tends to be the most protein-dense food, but most Americans eat more protein than necessary. Many plant-based foods are protein-rich such as beans, nuts, and certain types of grains. There is a concern about the quality of protein because some plant foods do not have all the essential amino acids, but eating a varied diet provides all of them. Also I can create the argument that getting protein from meat is inferior compared to certain plant sources such as soy or quinoa which not only are rich in complete proteins but also provide fiber and other nutrients without any cholesterol and have low amounts of saturated fat. In my own experience protein is not a concern at all. Nutrition is a hobby of mine so sometimes I keep a food journal, and I've had days were I've eaten 250% of the recommended amount of protein in a day. It's certainly possible to deprive yourself of protein, but you'd have to be pretty ignorant to do so.

Fair enough, But I don't think you ever told me what your example/thoughts on an example of a good reason. I'd like to hear it. :)
(I mean, I might even agree you do have a good reason, based on what that reason is)

Unless that was the whole "Environmental" approach. In which, I thought we have already agreed that one can still eat meat, while still being environmentally friendly. (ex: hunting)
It's just a combination of a bunch factors I've talked about. I find it easier for me to eat healthy by cutting out meat entirely, from an environmental perspective it goes against my conscience to ever purchase meat, and out of respect for animals it goes against my morals to ever eat an animal. Another reason that I never thought of until I researched vegetarianism is economics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_vegetarianism. A related idea I heard (I don't know if it's true or not, but it certainly sounded believable) is that when you consider all the tons of crops that are fed to animals that are mass bred for slaughter, all those crops could feed the poorer countries of the world several times over but instead we feed them to animals so that we can have them to eat. Another reason people become vegetarian is religion. I read on Wikipedia that Mahayana Buddhists are encouraged to be vegetarians in order to develop compassion. While this certainly was not on mind in my decision to become vegetarian, now I can relate to it. When you develop respect for animals by not eating them, you become less selfish and develop a greater sense of empathy for other living things, and this ultimately makes you a better person because you also gain a greater desire and ability to empathize with other people.
 
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blue-eyes

Phoenix
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Location
Among the stars
I eat meat, mainly because I see no problem with it, as well as the fact that as a kid (and now) I really don't have the option to not, as most dinners are some form of meat.
 

Akuhime-sama

What's Life Without Adult Humor?
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
None
I guess I'm just thinking of a few anecdotal experiences I've had. When a parent tells a child they have to eat the meat for protein to grow up big and strong and in rare cases yells at the child to eat a hamburger, it profoundly bothers me because it's not true. Knowing that people can easily get enough protein without ever eating an animal, for parents to do and say things like this amounts to brainwashing from my perspective.
Well, they have some point. I mean, you do need protein, and I'm sure everybody knows that protein is rich in meats.

It would make me very happy to know that people are eating less meat from a health and environmental perspective. From both of these perspectives stopping all meat consumption is unnecessary. If a person fishes and hunts their own meat as part of a well-rounded diet, I do believe they are just as healthy and environmentally friendly as a vegetarian. The health issues related with meat consumption are mainly due to excessive consumption as well as the fact that meat is often prepared in unhealthy ways such as fried chicken.
Plants can be just as bad for you. (the preparation).... Really, ANYTHING fried is "bad for you". I mean, they deep fry plats all the time and eat them. Just go to Japan and have Tempura. They usually have (I think it's peas?) veggies fried, along with shrimp or something.

However, from the animal rights perspective eating meat is just immoral and therefore a person would have to give up meat entirely.
Okay, this is the one thing I just don't follow.
Animals EAT Animals. In ... NATURE.... so, how is it at all immoral, or against animal "rights"?
There are animals out there that only eat meat. Carnivores. So, do you think, (from that standpoint), that they are immoral?
HELL, there are even carnivorous PLANTS! xD ...Plants... PLANTS, eating animals.
I don't see how eating animals can be seen as immoral. at all.

I don't mean that vegetarians stop other people from eating meat, but rather that vegetarians inspire or convince others to eat less meat or give up meat entirely. I have certainly noticed my example of vegetarianism making a difference in other people's choices of diet and have had multiple family members tell me that they eat less meat now because of me. I don't really think we are disagreeing here though since you said "much difference" which accepts that there is a difference made (although very small).
Oh, I didn't mean it as if you WERE saying that, not at all. I just made the point that nobody can convince anybody, who want's to do what they want to do, anything different.

And, no, by "much difference" I meant more like- "If there is any difference, it's SO minor that it doesn't really effect anything"

If you allow yourself to eat eggs or milk in the wild, then it would be unnecessary to eat meat.
If you eat eggs, you're eating meat. Eggs are animals. Yes, maybe undeveloped animals, but still animals. And the very definition of "meat" is the flesh of an animal, used as food.

Now, if eggs don't have flesh, then I don't know if it would be considered meat then. Same thing I wonder about insects too.
Do insects/arachnids even have flesh? I mean I know they have guts.... but is that.. flesh?

As for the omnivore debate that is just purely semantics. It depends if we define omnivore as "capable of deriving energy from animals and plants" or "eating both animals and plants." In the former definition all humans are omnivores because they can eat animals and plants, and in the latter definition vegetarians are not omnivores because their choice not to eat animals places them in the different category of herbivores. Also I do take back what I said because I incorrectly assumed the word omnivore only had the definition of eating both animals and plants. I still say that "humans need both meat and plants" is false except in much more narrowly defined circumstances. The omnivore thing depends on how you look at it.
Ah, well I knew "omnivore" as "A creature which needs nutrients from both plants and animals to survive."

Also, I would like to retract an earlier statement. I have gained new information that apparently, not all primates are omnivores. There are some that are PURELY Carnivorous, eating mostly grub.

Many plant-based foods are protein-rich such as beans, nuts, and certain types of grains. There is a concern about the quality of protein because some plant foods do not have all the essential amino acids
Ah, I KNEW there was something you needed that only came from meat. Perhaps I was thinking of protein in meat, and thinking that beans/nuts and stuff didn't give you enough. But there are ones that are protein rich? hm...

I read on Wikipedia that Mahayana Buddhists are encouraged to be vegetarians in order to develop compassion. While this certainly was not on mind in my decision to become vegetarian, now I can relate to it. When you develop respect for animals by not eating them, you become less selfish and develop a greater sense of empathy for other living things, and this ultimately makes you a better person because you also gain a greater desire and ability to empathize with other people.
Well, you can have a lot of compassion, while still eating meat. Like- even Native Americans who would be "one with nature" would say stuff in sympathy for the fallen animal they used as food. (Though, I'm primarily thinking of a scene from the movie Avatar, which the people of Pandora are strongly based off of the Native American ways)
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
Well, they have some point. I mean, you do need protein, and I'm sure everybody knows that protein is rich in meats.
Yes maybe it's just that oversimplifications of nutrition in general bother me but because this relates to animals it particularly bothers me. For instance whenever I hear "drink your milk for calcium for strong bones," "eat your carrots for Vitamin A for good eyesight," "eat your orange for Vitamin C to stay healthy," etc. I sort of roll my eyes because there are tons of other sources of these nutrients and better sources as well (especially now with fortified foods like most cereals and alternatives to dairy milk). However with meat it especially bothers me because it perpetuates the idea that we "have to" keep eating meat.

Plants can be just as bad for you. (the preparation).... Really, ANYTHING fried is "bad for you". I mean, they deep fry plats all the time and eat them. Just go to Japan and have Tempura. They usually have (I think it's peas?) veggies fried, along with shrimp or something.
True. This is why the blanket statement of eating vegetarian is healthier is pretty easy to poke holes in. If you gave up hot dogs and replaced all those calories with broccoli, in most cases you'd be healthier. But if you gave up fish and replaced all those calories with Skittles, you'd be much unhealthier. I think the term is junk-food vegetarianism. For instance a high school student who would normally have a plate half of chicken and half of French fries with milk to drink might decide to go vegan, and then the next day have a plate full of fries with soda to drink. In this example the two healthiest things disappear from the diet and the least healthy thing becomes more prevalent along with the addition of soda. In general for Americans replacing multiple servings of meat with vegetables (or grains, beans, nuts, seeds, fruit) each week would be healthier because the average American consumes more protein than necessary (so the decrease in meat wouldn't hurt in terms of protein), and the meat would be replaced by more vitamins, minerals, and fiber from the alternative foods. However of course there are tons of exceptions to this general statement. For instance a young woman at risk for anemia would want to keep track of iron consumption and meat is generally a better source of iron than plants (steak is the first thing that pops into people's minds for iron, but actually clams are by far the most iron-dense food out there).

Okay, this is the one thing I just don't follow.
Animals EAT Animals. In ... NATURE.... so, how is it at all immoral, or against animal "rights"?
There are animals out there that only eat meat. Carnivores. So, do you think, (from that standpoint), that they are immoral?
HELL, there are even carnivorous PLANTS! xD ...Plants... PLANTS, eating animals.
I don't see how eating animals can be seen as immoral. at all.
This is probably the core of the difference between our viewpoints, and I will try to explain it as best I can. Morality is subjective and obviously different groups hold different views on what is right and wrong. For instance social conservatives generally want to give rights to unborn humans and social liberals generally want to give rights to homosexual couples, and they typically disagree with each others' stance on the respective topics. On a smaller scale someone might think it's morally alright to smoke a cigarette in the presence of an infant whereas my view is that doing so is as abhorrent as waterboarding the infant. So clearly people disagree on what's "moral" and "immoral." The fact that animals eat other animals and that some animals are carnivores is fine with me because they don't know any different. They are not subject to the same moral standards, and neither are other people. My morals are my own. Simply it goes against my conscience to purposefully end the life of an animal without sufficient cause. Since I can live well without eating animals, I don't see a reason to eat meat. Another source of my vegetarianism is that I've lived on a farm and seen animals killed in the most "humane" way possible, and this doesn't change the fact that we are ending a life and shedding blood when we don't have to do so. On a fundamental level I'm extremely uncomfortable with violence and that's just who I am. Even though I don't see the animal being killed, whenever I see meat I associate it with violence against an animal and want nothing to do with it.

Oh, I didn't mean it as if you WERE saying that, not at all. I just made the point that nobody can convince anybody, who want's to do what they want to do, anything different.

And, no, by "much difference" I meant more like- "If there is any difference, it's SO minor that it doesn't really effect anything"
Ok I guess we do disagree then. I think the fact that I completely stopped eating meat and inspired others to reduce their meat consumption did have an effect on the world.

If you eat eggs, you're eating meat. Eggs are animals. Yes, maybe undeveloped animals, but still animals. And the very definition of "meat" is the flesh of an animal, used as food.

Now, if eggs don't have flesh, then I don't know if it would be considered meat then. Same thing I wonder about insects too.
Do insects/arachnids even have flesh? I mean I know they have guts.... but is that.. flesh?
I'm going to have to get philosophical here and way off track. I had no idea of this until I researched veganism, but most commercial chicken eggs are unfertilized. I first learned this while watching vegan propaganda in which the speaker tries to gross out the audience by saying that by eating eggs "you're eating chicken periods." So technically most eggs that humans eat could never become a live chicken because they left the hen's body without being fertilized. An egg is certainly a component of life though so I could see an argument. However if you consider the human abortion debate, not even the most hardcore pro-life person would consider an unfertilized egg to be life. The reason is, as George Carlin once pointed out, because to consider an unfertilized egg as life would be to consider any woman who has had a period to be a serial killer. But seriously I can still see how a person could call an egg meat although I don't consider it meat or flesh.

As far as insects go I'm not too sure. I think some probably do have some "contents" that could be considered flesh. Actually this reminded me of a weird thing I learned. It's virtually impossible for a human to live without ever consuming insects or parts/eggs of insects as part of other foods. So it that sense absolute vegetarianism probably doesn't exist. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#.22Pure.22_vegetarianism_not_possible

Ah, I KNEW there was something you needed that only came from meat. Perhaps I was thinking of protein in meat, and thinking that beans/nuts and stuff didn't give you enough. But there are ones that are protein rich? hm...
Yes I did a little more research, and it is true that meat generally is the most protein-dense food out there. However as far as best protein source it's very debatable because of how easily the body absorbs it and the other nutrients that come with it. The one that had me most convinced was whey protein which is a minor component of milk (a good source of protein) and also is separated out in the cheese making process (hence "curds and whey" and curds are cheese). As far as meat sources most people argue against red meats (and practically demonize processed meats like hot dogs) in favor of poultry and especially fish. Eggs are very highly regarded as well. The best plant source is soy because it is a rare plant source of complete protein, but pretty much all kinds of beans are fairly high in protein (and completing the proteins with other foods is easy). Nuts and seeds have high amounts of incomplete proteins so they aren't the best source but are good as part of a well-rounded diet. Grains, especially quinoa, are good plant sources of protein too. However individual differences play a huge role since allergies are common for things like milk and soy. In general it's probably a good idea to try different things in case you've been eating the same thing over and over because you might have a minor reaction to something like soy or milk and not even realize it.

Well, you can have a lot of compassion, while still eating meat. Like- even Native Americans who would be "one with nature" would say stuff in sympathy for the fallen animal they used as food. (Though, I'm primarily thinking of a scene from the movie Avatar, which the people of Pandora are strongly based off of the Native American ways)
That's definitely true, and I never thought of how the Native Americans approach animals. It's very interesting.
 
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Mudora

Innocent, but not fearful.
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Location
Canada, eh
Yes I do. I find meat to be quite tasty, as well as essential in maintaining a balanced diet. My family has a rich farming background, and we run over 100 head of beef cattle. In the past we have also raised chickens and pigs. By living on a ranch I've gained immense respect for the animals that feed us, and show this appreciation by treating them well and caring for them while they grow. I take pride in the fact that what my family, and other families like ours does, feeds the world.
 
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Joined
May 4, 2014
Location
California
As for being environmentally friendly, farming, whether its tomatos, orchards or grains does take up land. So take that into consideration before taking the high road please.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
As for being environmentally friendly, farming, whether its tomatos, orchards or grains does take up land. So take that into consideration before taking the high road please.
That's true. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm just sharing the fact that most relevant scientists say that reducing meat consumption is environmentally friendly, and I believe them because it makes sense. To be honest you actually offended me a little because it's like a driver of a Hummer telling a driver of a Prius that a Prius still uses gasoline (and by extension if they really cared the Prius driver should ride a bicycle). However in this case at this point I am unaware of dietary choices I could make that are more environmentally friendly besides starving and killing myself.
 

Viral Maze

Verb the adjective noun
Joined
Feb 5, 2010
Location
Canada
Definitely eat meat. I don't ever have a meal without a meat component.
It's funny, but my girlfriend is a vegetarian since birth... Go figure. So when we cook, we make vegetarian options (but I make myself some chicken on the side and add it into my dishes =D )
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Location
Aussieland
I eat meat.

I think overall whether meat or veggies you need to know what you're doing. The problem with many people is trying to "wing" their nutrition without never ever having had proper education. I am included in said list. I know the nutritional pyramid and I can understand the idea but I still fall in the mistake of trying to oversimplify what food has what vitamin and taking rations that might be bigger than necessary. I dislike a lot the idea of living checking the back of bottles to keep track of Calories but the reality is that for the sedentary life I live, I consume more of what my body requires.

While I could blame my upbringing for my preference of meat in my dishes, I think at this point of my life it is really something up to me. I'm eating meat because I feel comfortable doing it and that is the truth. I do understand the reasoning of vegetarians and I admire people resolution when they fight against life habits and taboos in order to become closer to the kind of person they want to be. I respect and I find interesting when they want to share with me about it, a t the same time I hope to be tolerated for my decision to keep eating meat.
 

Akuhime-sama

What's Life Without Adult Humor?
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
None
Yes maybe it's just that oversimplifications of nutrition in general bother me but because this relates to animals it particularly bothers me. For instance whenever I hear "drink your milk for calcium for strong bones," "eat your carrots for Vitamin A for good eyesight," "eat your orange for Vitamin C to stay healthy," etc. I sort of roll my eyes because there are tons of other sources of these nutrients and better sources as well (especially now with fortified foods like most cereals and alternatives to dairy milk). However with meat it especially bothers me because it perpetuates the idea that we "have to" keep eating meat.
I don't think it really tells us that we "have to keep eating meat", just maybe that it tells us that meat is a good source of food, and (at least) we should have a little of it... same goes for plants... because carrots and stuff are good for you, then it would be a good idea for you to eat it... but that's not saying "EAT IT OR DIE"... It's just saying, "hey, this has nutrients! it'd be good for ya!"...obviously, you could eat other things that had the same nutrients in it, but I don't think anybody is telling others to eat only carrots for a source of Vitamin A. Just that they ARE one source for it. ^^

but actually clams are by far the most iron-dense food out there
Really? hmm... I don't believe I knew that. :O

Morality is subjective and obviously different groups hold different views on what is right and wrong.
This is why I don't really believe morals actually exist.
(out side of the human mind of course- obviously they exist in the mind)

The fact that animals eat other animals and that some animals are carnivores is fine with me because they don't know any different.
I'm not sure on that. How do you know that there aren't any other animals (besides humans) with their idea of morals?
You never know, there could be...

They are not subject to the same moral standards, and neither are other people. My morals are my own.
Fair enough.

But also, I never said that I don't find it moral/immoral, all I said was "I don't see how eating animals can be seen as immoral." And, I still kind of don't. But I don't have to. I may never understand your views, but I can at least accept that you have them. And, I won't judge you unless you use your views to harm/upset/anger/etc.. others (this goes for anybody), and I don't think you are one to do that, (from what I've gathered so far), so I don't think I'd have any major beef with you. (GET IT!? BEEF!?) xD ...But seriously, I can agree to disagree respectively.

I'm going to have to get philosophical here and way off track. I had no idea of this until I researched veganism, but most commercial chicken eggs are unfertilized. I first learned this while watching vegan propaganda in which the speaker tries to gross out the audience by saying that by eating eggs "you're eating chicken periods."
..Really? hmm... well, I don't really know much about chickens... I always thought that eggs had fetuses in them... but, As I said, If there is no animal flesh in an egg, then I can understand not calling it meat. But if there is flesh, then it's meat. and again, I'm no chicken expert, so I can't say whether or not it's flesh.

And, the insects thing is interesting. Something else new to me. (new information wise)


Anyway, to wrap it up, I guess we agree to disagree. :nod:
 

Beauts

Rock and roll will never die
Joined
Jun 15, 2012
Location
London, United Kingdom
I eat meat because at the end of the day, I'm a mammal. A small percentage of the world population refusing to eat meat doesn't change the fact animals are raised and slaughtered for the purpose of creating food. If you choose not to eat meat, good for you, but don't look down on people just because they made different choices from you. Also, substitute meat for other protein sources all you want, meat is the best source of it. You want chronic anaemia? Fine by me.
 
Joined
May 4, 2014
Location
California
That's true. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm just sharing the fact that most relevant scientists say that reducing meat consumption is environmentally friendly, and I believe them because it makes sense. To be honest you actually offended me a little because it's like a driver of a Hummer telling a driver of a Prius that a Prius still uses gasoline (and by extension if they really cared the Prius driver should ride a bicycle). However in this case at this point I am unaware of dietary choices I could make that are more environmentally friendly besides starving and killing myself.

You didn't offend me. Wasn't trying to offend you either, sorry if it seemed that way, I was just pointing that fact out in general, since a lot of species both plants and animals alike lose their homes to encroachment. There are no clear cut ways to help preserve the environment with today's technology and growing population, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Yes, but I once tried going vegetarian. Funny story. I kept it somewhat of a secret for the longest time; well, it was more like I didn't think that it was anyone else's business (teen attitude). My family kept trying to figure out why I stopped eating meat, and they assumed the craziest things. Most of them thought that I was doing it for the usual reason: because of animals. I actually stopped eating meat because of my IBS, which I also kept a 'secret'. But alas, going vegetarian was anything but easy; it involved a lot of careful planning and maintenance, which I wasn't able to handle. On top of that, I couldn't even afford it.

I am now back to eating meat, even though I am now in a better position to afford and maintain a vegetarian diet. Though I find myself not liking bacon anymore—which I once used to eat too much of—save for in trace amounts. Speaking of which, I've recently considered cutting out pork altogether and substituting it with turkey.
 

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