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Spoiler Did Requiring the Fireshield Earrings Bother Anyone Else? A Nonlinearity Rant Inside

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
So I was thinking that I'd go do the Fire Sanctuary before the Sandship. I remembered that the clawshots were needed to pour water on one of the frog statues so I had that. I'm fairly certain that the bow was only extremely helpful for combat but not necessarily required in the Fire Sanctuary. So I drink a guardian potion plus to protect from the fire on the way to the sanctuary. I go to the entrance to the caves leading to the sanctuary only for Fi to stop me saying "Master, you do not have enough hearts to proceed safely in this area. I suggest you turn back"(or something similar). At this point I literally speak to my television saying "For your information stupid sword lady, I'm invincible for the next 3 minutes and can easily make it to through to the dungeon in time." Now I'm thinking that if Fi used the word "suggestion" that if I continue trying to go through the entrance she will let me. Nope, she repeats the exact phrase every time you try and won't let you pass. So for 3 minutes I'm told that I don't have enough hearts as I'm invincible trying to pass through a entrance with no barriers. I tried every combination of sidejumps, backflips, jump attacks, and forward jumps in order to somehow bypass the text prompt and proceed. I failed (sidenote: try pulling a bomb in there- it explodes instantly and it's fun when you're invincible).

It's one thing for there to be restrictions that make sense like needing the Water Dragon's Scale to reach the Ancient Cistern because there is only one way to swim in the game. To require you to obtain an item that protects from damage in certain situations when there is an alternative way to protect from all damage is pointless. Basically I'm being told "you're not allowed." I can accept "it's impossible," but I think this is ridiculous.
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
Yeah, that's another thing about SS that was disappointing: it was incredibly linear, to the point of TP's linearity. YOU MUST DO THIS SET OF DUNGEONS IN THIS SPECIFIC ORDER, NO EXCEPTIONS EVER. If there were alternate ways to complete dungeons, I think that would add diversity as well as replayability. Y'know, a hard route and an easier route. In most cases in actual dungeons, you can "get past them" in a multitude of ways. No reason that can't and SHOULDN'T happen in the Zelda series.

The only possible way to bypass any of it is if you had a moonjump/levitate code, but that would involve hacking your Wii in most cases.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
Yeah, that's another thing about SS that was disappointing: it was incredibly linear, to the point of TP's linearity. YOU MUST DO THIS SET OF DUNGEONS IN THIS SPECIFIC ORDER, NO EXCEPTIONS EVER.
The thing that bothers me most is that it's pointless nonlinearity that doesn't even tie into the plot. TP makes me angry just thinking about it because it could have been nonlinear so easily once you pass the first 3 dungeons. The game practically teased me with the group of adventurers in Telma's bar- anyone can guess that these four people will lead you to the next four dungeons. Why you couldn't shuffle the order in which you tackled them I can't understand at all. Arbiter's Grounds logically would go first since you figure out what you're looking for at the end of the dungeon, but Midna easily could have explained everything there later if say you did Snowpeak first. Also City in the Sky's quest to gain access to the dungeon tied into the plot, but the other 3 didn't really. Also the items obtained in Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak Ruins are barely used outside their respective dungeons. Temple of Time's item is only used to reach City in the Sky and that's about it.

What I find funny though is that Skyward Sword intended you to be able to do the Song of the Hero quest in any order, but the designers missed a game ending glitch so now everyone is discouraged from trying to do it out of order.

One thing Skyward Sword did do well IMO is that several of the dungeons themselves were nonlinear in that you could progress in different orders. I think that Skyview, Sandship, and Sky Keep definitely had some instances of this but I might have forgotten others.

If there were alternate ways to complete dungeons, I think that would add diversity as well as replayability. Y'know, a hard route and an easier route. In most cases in actual dungeons, you can "get past them" in a multitude of ways. No reason that can't and SHOULDN'T happen in the Zelda series.
This is something that was present some in LOZ and ALTTP but decreased in OOT. By the time TP was released it was almost extinct, but I think Skyward Sword put a little back in. What baffles me most is that the final dungeon in Twilight Princess actually gives you 2 completely separate paths that lead to the same conclusion as well as includes an entirely optional area that gives you an entirely optional key. That was awesome but why couldn't that have been in all the other dungeons. I think most dungeons should be designed that way. At least two paths through the dungeon and plenty of optional stuff.

One thing I noticed playing Skyward Sword is that there were usually entirely optional things to do in a dungeon. The Earth Temple set the map off in its own room so an entire room doesn't need to be entered. The Sandship had a heart piece and those treasure chests lined up. The best example is definitely the Fire Sanctuary because that had the bottle well hidden in its own area. I'd definitely like to see more optional things in dungeons like these in the future.

I do beat up on Twilight Princess though a lot, but I noticed some questionable exclusions in OOT as well. For instance in the Forest Temple there's the key hidden in the well that you have to drain the well to get. I don't understand why you're not allowed to open the chest underwater. The iron boots are very easy to get before going to the Forest Temple so it would have been logical to let you do that. It wasn't until Twilight Princess that we could do that, and they required you to do it in some places. One thing I think would have increased the replayability of OOT for me that would be extremely easy to implement would be to allow you to use the scarecrow's song in some instances in which they prevent you. I'm talking about two places off the top of my head-one is in the Forest Temple and the other is in the Water Temple. Both of these places let you call pierre for a shortcut, but only once you reach that area already. If you could just call him in the first place, the dungeons would be even more nonlinear than they already are and could be approached in very different ways. It's not like this would mess with people playing the game for the first time because most of them wouldn't know how to get the scarecrow's song in the first place or understand why Navi goes to the spot (which already occurs anyway but you just can't do anything until you reach that point). This would have been an extremely simple way (since the scarecrow already is there, they just don't let you use it yet) to allow for multiple paths through these two dungeons at least.
 
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Fullmetal

The Spy-Sniper Combo
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Location
"Right behind you."
I agree with much of what MW7 said, especially about how the second half of Twilight Princess could have taken place in any order. Now that I think about it, OoT had issues like this as well. Obviously, you have to complete the Kokiri Forest first, but it was strongly implied that you should go to Death Mountain first instead of Zora's Domain, when you could have easily done either one first. This didn't end at the game's midpoint though. The next dungeons, if judging by the plot only, could have been done in any particular order. Especially the Shadow Temple and the Spirit Temple (granted that you obtain a few certain items first). It seems to me that the Shadow Temple should have been done last, seeing as how Sheik desperately tells you "Impa is the Sage of Shadow," as if she were the only one left. However, if you did Shadow then Spirit, Nabooroo would still have to be awakened. The point is, it seems like you could have done dungeons 4-8 in any order.
 
Joined
May 25, 2008
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In my house
Um, no?

I don't believe I thought for a second when I first walked into the Volcano: "Alright this is bull****, I want to explore this **** place!" So, eventually, I got the Earrings and walked in there without a second thought.

The problem with nonlinerarity, is how much are people really going to use it? I play games as they are laid out to me, nothing more. I start up a game and I go where it tells me to go, and I often do the storyline without really doing any sidequests. That's simply how I play. On my second playthrough, and most future playthroughs, I will stick to this standard, and I'll start to develop a general way of playing through the game that I'll stick to every time in the future.

I find nonlinerarity to be one of the most pointless things to rant about with the game, because how much is having a set standard to things you need to, going to affect the game? Are you really going to be like: "OH MY GOD, I CAN PLAY THROUGH THE FIRE SANCTUARY BEFORE THE SANDSHIP! THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!"

I doubt it. And I somehow doubt you really care that much.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
Um, no?

I don't believe I thought for a second when I first walked into the Volcano: "Alright this is bull****, I want to explore this **** place!" So, eventually, I got the Earrings and walked in there without a second thought.

The problem with nonlinerarity, is how much are people really going to use it? I play games as they are laid out to me, nothing more. I start up a game and I go where it tells me to go, and I often do the storyline without really doing any sidequests. That's simply how I play. On my second playthrough, and most future playthroughs, I will stick to this standard, and I'll start to develop a general way of playing through the game that I'll stick to every time in the future.

I find nonlinerarity to be one of the most pointless things to rant about with the game, because how much is having a set standard to things you need to, going to affect the game? Are you really going to be like: "OH MY GOD, I CAN PLAY THROUGH THE FIRE SANCTUARY BEFORE THE SANDSHIP! THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!"

I doubt it. And I somehow doubt you really care that much.

Well I have no chance of persuading you, but just understand that allowing people to do the game in different orders would in no way impact how you want to play. The nonlinear games (LOZ, ALTTP, and OOT) all highly suggest orders so if you want to be told where to go, you can play that way. Usually it's the storyline that acts as a rationale to make the game linear in some places, but I'm just saying that Skyward Sword made some parts of the game linear with absolutely no rationale.

This wouldn't affect how you want to play the game so there's no point to oppose allowing people who want to skip around to do so. I understand that you don't care and it wouldn't increase your enjoyment of the game, but since it would increase other people's enjoyment and it wouldn't affect you, I think it makes no sense to oppose this.

We definitely play Zelda games for completely different reasons. I play to explore the worlds, beat dungeons, and solve puzzles. I like to figure out how many different ways there are to progress through the game and solve the puzzles- this is how I get most of my enjoyment from these games. I can't stand how the games sometimes have to tell you exactly what to do next. Most of the 3d games allowed for slight choice, but each of them could have easily have allowed for more freedom. The instance with the fireshield earrings is one example of the game designers telling you to do something in a specific order with absolutely no rationale whatsoever. They went out of their way to prevent players from exploring a certain area of the game when it would have been easier for them to not program Fi to tell you to turn around. I don't appreciate them doing this at all as I get enjoyment from these games by exploring and figuring out how I can do things differently.

And I do care that much. For evidence note the thread I created on the fastest path through the sandship. Analyzing how to best approach the nonlinear problems presented in that dungeon gives me lots of enjoyment. Another important reason is because of what Vanitas said about adding replayability through adding different ways to attempt dungeons. This goes hand in hand with nonlinearity. It hasn't been pulled off well in the 3d Zeldas but there are examples in LoZ and ALTTP. A good example is in the ice palace in ALTTP. There is the infamous block puzzle that can be very frustrating. However, if you go to Misery Mire first and obtain the Cane of Somaria, then you can solve the ice block puzzle in a second. Another example in the original LoZ is the magic key. It is possible (but very challenging) to get the magic key before entering any other dungeon. This allows you to complete the later dungeons in crazy ways since you no longer need keys. The option of buying keys was also a cool thing as was being able to use keys in different dungeons. All these things relate to nonlinearity. Now look at Twilight Princess, iirc there was one instance in the entire game during which you could even possess more than one key. That basically means that you're forced through most of the dungeons along one main path. IMO that severely limits the replay value of the game for me at least. I know it doesn't matter to you, but it essentially ruins the game for me.

I agree with much of what MW7 said, especially about how the second half of Twilight Princess could have taken place in any order. Now that I think about it, OoT had issues like this as well. Obviously, you have to complete the Kokiri Forest first, but it was strongly implied that you should go to Death Mountain first instead of Zora's Domain, when you could have easily done either one first. This didn't end at the game's midpoint though. The next dungeons, if judging by the plot only, could have been done in any particular order. Especially the Shadow Temple and the Spirit Temple (granted that you obtain a few certain items first). It seems to me that the Shadow Temple should have been done last, seeing as how Sheik desperately tells you "Impa is the Sage of Shadow," as if she were the only one left. However, if you did Shadow then Spirit, Nabooroo would still have to be awakened. The point is, it seems like you could have done dungeons 4-8 in any order.

OOT definitely could have done a lot more to be nonlinear. The blocks in front of Zora's River were literally pointless since you: A. don't need the bombs anywhere Inside Jabu Jabu B. can get bombs from Dodongo's Cavern and complete Jabu Jabu first (getting the Zora's Sapphire before the Goron's Ruby) and C. the programmers already make the dialogue make sense if you do B.

The other ideas I would have liked to see in OOT would have been to move the hookshot into a Light Dungeon that you complete upon awakening from the seven year sleep, and opening up the Shadow Temple once you have any other two medallions instead of requiring the Forest, Fire, and Water medallions. The reason for the second idea is because the hover boots can completely change how you could solve the Water Temple.
 
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Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Location
Norway
Most of the SS problems roots back to Fi being annoying, seems like it atleast. It is very true aswell.
 

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