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Defeated Timeline (work in Progress...)

N

Namurashi

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I really like the idea of Link seeing flashes of a prior Link that failed, it'd give that whole scene an even darker more mysterious tone. I have always wondered why he had those dreams and just shrugged it off as being foreshadowing for Link giving him a reason to stride on for his quest. I also have a theory about the defeated timeline, but I have decided to make a thread on the subject as to not derail yours. Please let me know what you think of mine as well. :)
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
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For those I may have confused with poor wording:

* the timeline (defeated) plays out prior to OoT. How it play out is speculative, though I'd imagine anything we deem 'paradox' starts here.

* Link is defeated on this timeline, in a battle against Ganon (as stated in Hyrule Historia). This would mean Ganon is able to get his hands on all the Triforce, as we know he winds up with in LttP.

* How the timeline reverts to this point, again, would be speculative, though I'd suspect it's a result of Zelda attempting to return and prevent this tragedy from occurring at all. The bad dreams Link is getting, are flashes from the 'rewound' timeline.

* you play the other 2 timelines out from there, paradox and 'Hero of Time should SPECIFICALLY BE __' included.

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Locke: You assume Link would have survived on the DT. No matter how you look at it, my way or the generally accepted way, Link's survival is seriously up for debate. In both manners he would lose the Triforce, which already doesn't look good for him. We already know from OoT that however that battle plays out, Link fights to the end. So if he falls... he's not going to be alive to give existing memories to his younger self. So in this case it wouldn't be rewriting any rules; Link isn't specifically being sent back, so his past self is like anyone else when you go back in time -- he knows as much as anyone. But is sensitive to the darkness, ergo, dreams.

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Regarding Rauru, it all depends again on speculative points on how the defeated timeline would have played out. As I've said previously, Ganon and Zelda both appear to rush through the start, racing against one another to cause or prevent the catastrophe the other timeline will have showed them. Rauru, being an ancient sage, has every chance of also being sensitive of what's to come (allowing himself to barricade an area of the Sacred Realm that we know had become a stronghold in LttP. So whether he had an actual part in the defeated timeline, whether his part was the same, or whether he found himself unexpectedly overcome, I couldn't say. But he did know a lot about how the Hero of time should be, given that there hadn't actually been one yet.
 
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Oct 22, 2012
Thank you once again Satsy. I'd also like to add in that this theory never implies that Ganondorf never obtained the Triforce. I completely believe Link collected the spiritual stones and the master sword and separated the Triforce between himself, Ganon, and Zelda. He just wasn't powerful enough to defeat Ganon. I think Zelda used the ocarina of time to rewind time to the morning of Navi's arrival. Come to think of it based on this the Ocarina of Time would be the factor that created each split. The Downfall split created when Zelda rewinds time after Link's Failure and the Child split created after he had succeeded. Which I believe more closely matches Sheik's quote comparing time's flow to that of a river. Perhaps Rauru does remember these things because he is unaffected by the happenings of Hyrule within the Sacred Realm and like Satsy says he does seem to know quite a bit about what a Hero of Time should be.
 
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I love the way that you put the defeated timeline as a "rewound" timeline". It makes a lot more sense this way, but I have one problem, Twinrova appears in the oracle games, but you kill her in Oot. The only way I can make sense of this is either Twinrova fakes her death, which i find hard to believe (because I see no logical reason for her to do so), or link somehow was able to fight Ganon before fighting Twinrova. Is it possible that maybe the link that failed was child link? Link could have gathered the stones and drew the master sword without Rauru taking him to the sacred realm for seven years, and when Ganondorf came in behind to take the triforce, link fought him and failed, giving Ganondorf the triforce, and leaving twinrova alive to revive him in the oracle games. When link dies, zelda rewinds time back to when you get navi, and this time around Rauru protects link in the sacred realm until he is strong enough, thus explaining why the hero of time had to wait until he was an adult to get the sword, but all of the other heros got the master sword regardless of age.

Edit: Reading through other posts I forgot that HH states that the triforce splits, I think that when child link pulled the master sword, he went into the sacred realm and the triforce split because he didn't have power wisdom and courage in balance.
 
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Satsy

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As I've said previously how the rewound timeline actually plays out would be harder to establish as a result of us not playing it. There are key factors that definitely happen (Ganon smacking Link down when he leaves the gates, pulling of the MS, 7 years, and the Final Battle, as well as others), but it also leaves room for factors we can't rightly know. Like whether the Song of Storms starts its paradox loop here, whether the trials Link faces differ (like I suspect the 3 stones quest does), how specifically the rewind was put forward, or Link's eventual fate.

While one could easily brush the theory to the side as a result of "it's easier to think all 3 timelines are like the game sells it", I prefer the creative freedoms that come with wondering about this. After all, like Koume and Kotake's appearance, there are a lot of things that would be left unexplained if you assume it went that way by the book. Both in OoT, and in the resulting games in the timeline. That there are no retcons means there's probably a reason all the maidens in LttP were Hylian, possibly a result of the first failing (something those sensitive would come to realise after time rewinds).

(which could explain both why Koume and Kotake could show up later, and why the thieves in the desert all wound up male and Hylian, rather than female and Gerudo).
 
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As I've said previously how the rewound timeline actually plays out would be harder to establish as a result of us not playing it. There are key factors that definitely happen (Ganon smacking Link down when he leaves the gates, pulling of the MS, 7 years, and the Final Battle, as well as others)

What evidence do you have to back this up?
 
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Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
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  • Ganon smacking Link down: The 'dream' Link gets. If that didn't happen on the rewound timeline, this whole concept would be pointless. Don't forget if we view this as an echo, this had to have happened at some point on the defeated timeline.
  • Pulling of the MS: There would be no other way into the Sacred Realm. We know Ganon winds up in there otherwise LttP wouldn't happen. The LttP backstory tells of people fighting to get in, the gates to the Sacred Realm getting sealed, and that's where Ganon remains up until his death and Link touching the Triforce.
  • 7 years: Again the Final Battle would happen at the same point, and Link in OoT is put to sleep for 7 years.
  • Final Battle: Hyrule Historia. All the splits happen from the same point.

I'm not pulling things entirely out of nowhere -- the games themselves present us a lot of this.
 
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I agree with the first two. but the seven years thing can't be true unless there is something that we haven't been told yet. if we lost to ganon in the same sort of final battle we fought in Oot, then that means we awakened the sages, meaning we beat the spirit temple and killed twinrova, and that can't work. Also, the intro to link to the past clearly says that seven wise men sealed ganon into the golden land/ dark world. There are 7 sages in Oot, and all but 2 are women. Its possible that by men then merely meant human, but zelda must have died before they sealed ganon, because ganon was sealed with the entire triforce, meaning that only 6 sages remained not the 7 that link to the past says. When Zelda rewound time to give link another try, everyone except rauru would be exactly the same as they were the first time around because its as if the rewound events never happened, so if we theorize that link went 7 years into the future, then we assume that Ganondorf ruled for 7 years and made it impossible for us to reach his tower without the sages. to get to ganondorf we need the 6 sages to make the bridge to ganons tower, meaning we beat the spirit temple killing twinrova, and zelda died sometime after the final battle but before ganon was sealed. There are to many holes in the timeline if Link went seven years into the future.
 

Locke

Hegemon
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Also, the intro to link to the past clearly says that seven wise men sealed ganon into the golden land/ dark world. There are 7 sages in Oot, and all but 2 are women.
The original Japanese text referred to them as "Sages". NoA invented the term "Wise Men". Anyhow, HH retconned this term by also calling them the Seven Sages.

zelda must have died before they sealed ganon, because ganon was sealed with the entire triforce
HH: The Seven Sages of Hyrule, led by Princess Zelda, sealed Ganon and the Triforce in the Sacred Realm as a final resort.
 
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then how did zelda seal ganon, except ganon had the entire triforce? And my problem with Twinrova has yet to be addressed.
 

Locke

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then how did zelda seal ganon, except ganon had the entire triforce? And my problem with Twinrova has yet to be addressed.

Like in WW, he doesn't need to kill the host, he just needs to bring them all together. How did the Sages manage to seal Ganondorf when he had the complete Triforce, while they only barely managed to do it with Link's help when the Triforce was split in the AT? see Hand Wave
 

Satsy

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The maidens (LttP) were all Hylian. The intro to LttP shows 7 Hylian Sages. Ergo the sages awoken in the Defeated Timeline may not have been the same as the Sages awoken in playable OoT. Given that the Zoras are all monsters, and the Goron don't even have a species we can liken them to, then we can safely assume Ganondorf succeeded in taking them down the first time around. Nabooru may not have even awoken, so the opportunity to take down Twinrova probably never happened the first time.
 
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The way I see it, if zelda rewound time back to before link got navi, everything would occur the exact same way, like if you were to rewind a cassette tape, it sounds exactly the same the second time through, the only person that would be aware of the rewind would be rauru, meaning he is the only one that could change links adventure the second time around. The only things that he could change from inside the sacred realm is what happens to link when he goes inside it as a child. Rauru has little-no influence outside the sacred realm, because until link started awakening more sages, you don't see them influence anything in hyrule.
 

Satsy

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If it occurred the exact same way, a lot of things wouldn't be accounted for still. It's why I'm thinking about this so much and why the theory's still a work in progress. If it all occurred the same way, then there would be no 'rewound' timeline at all. Because what's the point if nothing actually changed? I do believe thing changed in more significant ways than you'd think, which led to the rewind, where 'those sensitive' were more prepared, armed with at least partial knowledge of what's to come. I don't think it did all remain the same.

After all in OoT, the carpenters who were going to join the Gerudo wound up captured, going free, and returning to their jobs as carpenters. Whereas in LttP, all the thieves are male, and the base of operations is Kakariko (or is said to have been initially). That suggests that the dynamic went through quite some change, and the typically non-male-bearing tribe were no longer the prevalent thieves. We're also led to understand that Ganon took a group with him when he first entered the Sacred Realm (possibly the still-loyal Gerudo), who never returned. There's more to suggest things didn't go the same way, than they stayed exactly as the game showed.

If you think about it, if things did go the same way, then there should have been a 'secret end' if you lost to Ganon in that final battle. The 3DS version arose after the devs seemed to solidify this idea of 3 timelines, so if such an ending hasn't been erected, then the defeated timeline isn't one you play.
 

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