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Defeated Timeline (work in Progress...)

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
I know a lot of people aren't happy about the idea of the defeated timeline, since that almost doesn't seem supported by the game itself. I can understand this and have always held the theory that the specific route isn't one you play. It can't be. You don't die. But I never really gave it more thought than that until recently.

Something in OoT that other games don't seem to contain, is Link's future dream. It's not just a prophecy, it's not just a mindless nightmare. He sees a very real, ominous look into future events. While in SS Link gets a prophecy dream, in OoT he's getting a look at a very real future, and from what the Deku Tree said, these have been going on for a while for him. So he's been seeing bits and pieces from a future that hasn't happened yet. But why is that? The Deku Tree tells us about the coming evil, and that those sensitive are feeling it. Among them is Link. This isn't a common factor among Links, however, since the evil is usually knocking at his door before he gets to work. So why was this Link different? I suspect the answer might be more significant than we ever give it credit for:

He's not seeing his future, he's seeing a flash of the future that just failed.

I'll say it again, the Defeated Timeline can't be one we've played. We know that the split happens at the final battle, so clearly the Defeated Link made it that far. From a speculative aspect there's every chance that Zelda, who we know was there, played the Ocarina, that we also know was there, to try to 'restart' in a similar fashion to Majora's Mask so there was still a chance to beat him. But to go into that kind of detail is hard to prove.

Although we need to remember that, at this point, the Hero of Time hasn't happened before. Yet there's talk of how the Hero of Time 'should be', which unless I'm missing something, no previous game has given an indication of. And yet everything takes such a stance over what appear to be 'specific criteria' for the hero. He can't use the Master Sword for another 7 years. A specification under which no other MS wielding Link is held to. So unless the HoT has happened, on a timeline that didn't make it, it's hard to justify where the specific details of these criteria come from, given how vague and misunderstood the legends in these games usually fly. This does of course lead to the question of 'why' the journey OoT Link takes is often set back by 'wait not yet' moments.

A lot of important people should be sensitive to the events of this game, given how many people are affected by it. We know well that the Deku Tree, Link, and Zelda have all felt it... I suspect Ganondorf did as well.

If you think about it, if you saw recurring dreams of a future you want to stop/allow, wouldn't you do everything in your power to bring it about as soon as possible? Zelda did this by sending you after all the stones so you could protect the Triforce (such is the mind of a child). It shouldn't be a far cry that Ganondorf would do the same, rushing after the stones so he could get at his prize. We know Ganon tends to act through proxies when he gets the chance, in which point given his swearing allegiance to the King it seems almost uncharacteristic that he'd go about doing the dirty work himself. He may not have gotten the stones, but he was certainly the one to set the curses, only acting through you when he realised your mission helped him. And it did, bringing him free reign of Hyrule 7 years before the battle that decided the true outcome.

As I've said, this is a work in progress right now. I'm aware I may be missing points (both for and against), and some of the points range from circumstantial to outright speculation. But that's why I'm putting this up now. This is what I have currently, if it doesn't hold up it doesn't hold up. If it does, awesome. ;)

So lemme know what you think! Critique away!
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
The Hero of Time is likely a specific criteria for that one single incident. (It should be noted the Master Sword had only appeared to an older boy at this point.) Like the Hero of the Winds, I think this was a specific incident requiring specific tools from the gods to solve a specific problem.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
The difference here between the Hero of Winds and the Hero of Time is that the HoW was passing trials. He couldn't get the Master Sword without getting to Hyrule, he couldn't get to Hyrule without passing the trial of the Gods, and he couldn't get to the tower to pass that trial without first getting the 3 orbs. 'Wait 7 years' doesn't exactly sound like hero criteria, especially when the evil he's got to vanquish is running around causing mayhem all that time.

In fact, it wouldn't have made sense for Link to even be able to pull the sword if he didn't meet the criteria. LttP is a good example here, that you couldn't pull the sword until you met what the sword deemed as worthy, after which you could pull it out and run around as-per-usual. WW did the same after those trials. So I don't think the Master Sword had any real age limit, and that what limits were set came from Rauru, who watched over him in the Sacred Realm all that time.

It also wouldn't explain why in this case the criteria was so specific, when half the time we don't even know the age of each Link we play as.
 
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Downfall Timeline

I want to start by saying a portion of this is not mine I'm merely expanding on a thread I read awhile back because I honestly can't find it.(and hoping the originator will see this and I can give due credit) In Ocarina of Time, the master sword has an odd stipulation that didn't exist in any Zelda game I'd ever played: an age limit. I also believe Link's prophetic visions in the opening were a first-time thing too. Perhaps the age limit was put in place because these dreams Link had weren't visions but his memories from the downfall timeline. I think that in the downfall timeline Child Link collected the spiritual stones , ocarina of time, and master sword but WASN'T forced into his 7 year nap. He wasn't able to complete the temples or defeat ganon and the Hero of Time was lost. But due to intervention by either Princess Zelda or the Goddess of Time time returned to the moment Link's Quest began and a lesson was learned, the age limit was placed for Link and he was haunted by memories of his failure.

so thoughts? plausible? I've always had an issue with the age limit thing in OoT. I also hope the originator of this theory does find it.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
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Gender
Shewhale
I too thought about this, as I think this was the only moment in Ocarina of Time where Ganondorf could have defeated Link...

However in HH it does state that by the time Link challenges Ganondorf he already has the Triforce of Power, thus turning him to the Demon King Ganon, which was the same form we seen in the final boss fight from OoT. To gain the Triforce Ganondorf would have had to have waited like he did before for Link to draw the Master Sword. Everytime I try to think of a logical explanation of the downfall timeline the canon events in Hyrule Historia get in the way and am afraid we wil have to accept that the downfall timeline is simply a hypothesis of what would have happened if Link would have lost to Ganondorf.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
That may have been me. :)

As far as Ganondorf already having the ToP, I wouldn't contest this. HH also states that the split -- all 3 aspects -- happen during that final battle. We know that the games after each of the splits reveals that Ganon either had a piece of, all of, or very soon wound up with part of, the Triforce. So whatever took place on the defeated timeline, the Triforce would at some point have to have been taken, at least in part. But that's not to say it was all done in the same way the game played it out. If Ganondorf had the forewarning, he'd know when to sneak in. Without the forewarning, the gate is still open once Link's pulled the Master Sword in the first place. Same results, different journey.

Admittedly I've been meaning to plow through OoT again to see if I could find anything else since mulling over the idea, but I haven't. I did notice someone mention the carved drawing on the side of Link's tree-house. If the dreams had been going on a while, it wouldn't be far to at least speculate that the drawing came from those (thus echoes of the timeline gone).
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
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Location
Redmond, Washington
You're proposing a series of events which did not include Link having those dreams. Weren't they an integral force in starting him on his journey in the first place?

also occam's razor...
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
They definitely helped, but what pushed it along in OoT was Ganondorf poisoning the Deku Tree to get ahold of the stones. Here's a post I wrote on this idea a little while back for reference. It's inevitable that on his quest for power, Ganondorf would try to get his hands on an ultimate source, but given his nature to work through others as other games before -- and after -- have shown, it seems off that this is the one and only time he gets down and dirty (until he gets the Triforce).

Link getting prophecy dreams is still unusual, too. Zelda not so much, and the Deku Tree is definitely sensitive to things, having long since realised Link was going to be a hero and need sending on a journey in the future (discovered later when the sprout emerges). Not to say the journey started on the same foot, nor would I see a reason for it to do so.

Occams razor is all well and good, but there's a lot that isn't explained and nobody buys. We've got paradoxes all up in that game, so why would the split happening first be so hard to believe?
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
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Location
Inside the Moon
Perhaps Child Link got the Triforce of Courage, but didn't wait seven years. He would have tried to stop Ganondorf right away. His youth would have stopped him from utilizing the power of the Triforce.

That and maybe Fi, who was in the Master Sword, didn't sense the presence of the older master she once had, and thus didn't grant the power unto the young Link.

Either or both ways, Link would have died in battle, and the new timeline could be Rauru's ability to transverse time and alter events. In MM Gaepora can time warp, so why can't Rauru do so to alter the timeline to help save Link?
 
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Satsy! Thank you for the link to your thread! This was the exact source of my thoughts so thank you very much. Locke I don't think the dreams would have been essential to Link's Quest because regardless of the dreams the Great Deku Tree would have sent Navi after him. And could you give a dumbed-down explanation of this Occam's Razor, I've read it in the rules but I don't understand the actual concept. And as for Rauru and Gaepora, I'm not sure the owl in Termina is KG and I'd like not to base theory on theory.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
No problem, and I'm happy people are thinking about it. :)

Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer". If there are multiple theories linking A to B, then the simplest one must be right. This was said of the Shrine Maidens being the same as the LttP Maidens, Jabun being Jabu Jabu, Link and Zelda (OoT) being related, and the previous notion of only having the one split in the timeline (adult and child).

Which is why I'm wary of people falling back on it. Simple answer doesn't always mean right answer.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
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Gender
Shewhale
I have actually thought about this multiple times...

It seems like the only plausible moment in the plot were this split could of took place, it ia in fact the only time we come face to face with Ganondorf prior to the final battle. However as much as I hate to say it, this just can't work...Am afraid HH gets in the way once again, it says that Link challenges Ganondorf for the destiny of Hyrule. It also states that Ganondorf now has the Triforce of Power thus turning him into the Demon King Ganon, this is basically the same event as what happens in the final battle. Ganondorf could not gain the Triforce when Link was a child, it was sealed beyond the Door of Time by the Master Sword, now no evil can weild the MS, so that means Ganondorf wouldn't be able to enter the Sacred Realm.

In that scene we see, Link is yet to draw the Master Sword meaning that Ganondorf would not have ToP and therefore these events couldn't take place. The Defeated timeline will probably never be explained logically and I think Nintendo just want it to be known as a hypothesis if Link actually failed to defeat Ganondorf.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Location
Somewhere small
I'm not saying that dream is where Link dies. If you'd looked beyond that bolded line you'd see that I even expanded on this. I acknowledge what the HH is telling us, that the defeat would have come from the final battle -- a version we didn't get to play.

If you consider how the plot works out, however, revealing the final battle before you get to control your character would have been, frankly, stupid. Revealing a point where the game and the timeline may have different paths, is far more effective. You get to that point, and you realise whatever you did had no impact on this outcome (except Zelda throwing you the ocarina).

If you haven't done so yet, please check where I've expanded on the points.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
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Gender
Shewhale
I'm not saying that dream is where Link dies. If you'd looked beyond that bolded line you'd see that I even expanded on this. I acknowledge what the HH is telling us, that the defeat would have come from the final battle -- a version we didn't get to play.

If you consider how the plot works out, however, revealing the final battle before you get to control your character would have been, frankly, stupid. Revealing a point where the game and the timeline may have different paths, is far more effective. You get to that point, and you realise whatever you did had no impact on this outcome (except Zelda throwing you the ocarina).

If you haven't done so yet, please check where I've expanded on the points.

From reading that part is tough to know what you're actually getting at, as I said before the defeated timeline is just a hypothesis of what would have happened if we didn't defeat Ganondorf.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Not so much "simplest" as "the least amount of assumptions" or "the least amount of entities" ("entities" could be anything, including characters, events, places, or assumptions). And not so much "must be right" as "is the best assumption" - it's just a heuristic, not a definite answer. A few of the entities that this theory creates include the new continuity that I mentioned in my previous post (as opposed to the DT and AT branching off from the same continuity), and yet another set of rules surrounding time travel (Link retains all his memories when Zelda sends him back to the CT, but you're suggesting that this time he only retains a few as haunting dreams). What of Zelda's prophecy? If Link's dreams are no longer the same thing as Zelda's prophecy, then that's another entity. How did Rauru know to hold Link in stasis if he didn't have memories of the DT?
 

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