Game Thread [Day 5] Zelda an Orcarana of Time as Remembered by Someone Who Only Played a Little Bit of it Well Over a Decade Ago Mafia

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

Like, this is a start. Are there any posts in particular where they did this and it was memorable to you?

I definitely agree Ex has been all over the place with being both aggressive but also being on the defensive. I don't know if that means he is scum though. Out of the two though I'd trust Mikey over Ex.

What exactly are your concerns on Mikey? His miller claim? Voting patterns?

My main concern with Ex is this lie detector- I know I was going on about it before but it still bothers me. Here are some of the things he said regarding it-

Spoiler

Post #377 No, for today I have a lie detector that applies to all player
Post #403 I'm not gonna elaborate how it works. Why are you hesitating to say you're not mafia?
Post #404 Well, you'll have to trust me here. What's the point of killing me off before I'm able to share the result by the start of the next Day? It should prove that I'm telling the truth and by trying to lynch me you'd be just disrupting a chance for town to possibly clear not only me but other people.
Post #444 please, I'm telling the truth umu I'm town and I just want to help my team, lynching me before I can even share the results of the lie detector is nonsense
Post #655 The Lie Detector worked differently from what I originally expected and ended up being not being useful except for baiting scum into trying to target me, if anyone watched me or Chevy they probably saw scum. I expected it to return me the names of all people that lied throughout the phase but turns out it only returns "somebody lied" and "nobody lied". Sorry for being a moron. Good news is that I still have more uses of it, although it's a lot weaker than I expected.
Post #690
It was weaker than I expected and I should've asked for clarification before, and I'm sorry for that.
But I also just didn't want to share to not give scum information, is it really that absurd? lol
By leaving it vague about how strong it was, it did make me an obvious target in the night, was hoping a watcher or something could catch a peek on whoever targeted me.

...actually looking back he sounds pretty sincere. What still bothers me though is that he used it as a means to see who would or would not respond, holding that over are heads as the only reason not to kill him and then having it fail. In this case, what was the point of not lynching him? If the lie detector works the way he says it does now, perhaps we should have only our top suspect say "I am town aligned" to see if it comes back that someone was lying. Problem is it probably doesn't work on Ex himself, since only he knows is he's lying. Also Ex, if you don't mind saying, what is your role? Most roles have abilities that tie into them, I can't think of anyone from OoT that can summon items.

My main problem with Mikey, in addition to his aggressive stance, is his miller claim. Forgive me if I'm incorrect but it was explained to me that a miller is someone who will always look as though they're scum but actually aren't. But really aside from his own actions there hasn't been anything occurring to make him seem particularly scummish. And looking back over his posts (which I don't feel like pasting all of them so look on your own if you want), I don't see anything particularly useful. It's mostly just throwaway statements and probing questions that never get brought back up. Based on this-
Vote: Mikey The Moblin
This is liable to change but based on this I think he's my best suspect at the moment.

 

[15377]

Missing top town from Mikey and 15377. Please folks, it'd be appreciated, we need to cooperate for it to work.

------



Here's the thing;

• If you're evil, you fear the LD because you don't know how it works and how much of a threat it is. Turns out it wasn't that powerful, but you don't know that. So you obviously wouldn't want to cooperate* and would try and shade the plan.
• If town, normally you just cooperate. If you're "unconcerned" because you've got other ways to do so, then you cooperate anyways as to not stick out, because players that can be confirmed are always a tasty choice for NKs. So you don't even give a hint as to that, evils normally scan the thread looking for crumbs. There's literally no downside to putting that sentence out there. But you didn't and now you've got me here pondering about the why, wasting time if you're not a meanie.

*In your case it was interesting because I remember discussing with Uwu not wanting to do it, yet for some reason didn't notice you weren't doing it either. Turns out, that reason was that you talked quite a bit about it, even suggesting how to best use it, but ended up not cooperating.

That's somewhat contradictory, don't you think? Like soft-shading.

I'm unconcerned with the LD because I've been pretty openly lying about my role the entire game (because I'm a clay pot). A wide reaching net like Ex claimed isn't likely to go through each person's post and specify where they lied. Since I would have already red flagged myself there's no point making the statement anyway, because I'd be getting the attention regardless.

So no, I didn't give Ex town-cred for that. I was pondering on the chance and looking for takes on it.

Yoir initial take was to town tell the behavior from Ex, which is what I meant by cred. Discussion (or lack thereof) doesn't change your initial hot take.

Promise I'm not trying to be cheeky here but you're really close to connecting the dots in Mikey's claims/agenda that literally explain this. I can't spell it out, sadly, but it's mostly in the thread. So please, give a quick read to the posts in which he lays it out.

The implication that you were redirected to Mikey is not lost on me. I do not find his waiting for you to claim so as to not box you into revealing certain information nor his lack of correcting the false/incomplete information you provided in your claim to be a good look on either of you though.

I think nobody can dispute what Kirino brought up at the time, which was that Johnny's push was lacking in substance/conviction. At the time I only knew of the name, and we've been told we can't trust that to make alignment conclusions, so I made that question to see if I could figure out what they were trying to do.

I am not disputing what Kirino did. I am disputing why you, as supposed town cop, would fuel the fire on a player you don't want to see lynched because you intend to investigate them the following night to hard clear them.

It's in my claim post. If I can't elaborate it's for a reason, so you bringing up that I've been admittedly coy about some stuff is a bit rich considering how much we know about your role and your recent "I have my reasons", don't you think?

Not at all. It's my intention to be incendiary with that line. I can elaborate about everything in my role but I choose not to. It remains to be seen whether doing so will yield an advantage.

You're also not explaining how it makes any sense for evil!me to claim to have targeted someone with a killing power the same night they died.

That's pretty standard for games suspected of having a tracker, as was discussed early day 3 when I brought up SmS watching me. Scum in games with trackers often avoid lying about who they target to avoid getting caught by the tracker but instead lie about what they did in the night instead.

Overall I think you point out at parts where you say I've been inconsistent/shady, yet don't make a case as to why that could come/be convenient from a mafia perspective. Like, the Mikey failed vote is weird, sure, but doesn't make any sense for me to attempt if I knew a partner was going to flip anyways. Someone who also shaded me at the very end for the Kirino vote.

You can't see why it would be convenient for scum to make no hard stances during a game? That's the major crux on you. You abandoning the hard stances you do make is just a side product of that. Your behavior fits a pattern where you make seemingly helpful posts with your questioning, but never make posts where you collective gather and analyze the answers. So many posts go by between your active bouts that you can just address a new topic that's more current the next time you post, which also means you leave no trail of progression on your reads either, which means there's nothing you have to keep up with. In terms of the Mikey vote specifically, I reasoned that out in 440.

 

[Mikey the Gengar]

finding town has just been too hard this game for me
sure I haven't been trying particularly hard, but is that really my fault?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

If it helps I do like you chiming in despite your claim so, please keep doing so.

I thought you were gonna start talking a bit more after your last target question, since it seems like nobody has/is willing to claim to have targeted you so far.

There is nothing to gain from it probably. The only reason I asked was because I can see if anyone targets me during the day and during the night. I used that power last night and was told nobody targeted me during the day or during that night. I figured I could ask if someone targeted me and maybe try to work that into a claim, so if they said yes to targeting me they'd be caught in a lie, but nobody came forward. It was worth a try at least.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

To clarify, that is different from my other ability that I used on Night 1.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

finding town has just been too hard this game for me
sure I haven't been trying particularly hard, but is that really my fault?

I don't like this, I need fired up Mikey

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

figured I could ask if someone targeted me and maybe try to work that into a claim, so if they said yes to targeting me they'd be caught in a lie, but nobody came forward. It was worth a try at least.

*and they could maybe try to work that into a claim

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Wait Reki claimed cop?

 

[Mikey the Gengar]

I don't like this, I need fired up Mikey

I'm an NPC
like the only read I was confident on was killjoy

 

[15377]

Wait Reki claimed cop?

Reki claimed two actives and a passive (unstated). The first targets to reveal a players rolename with the option of targeting a second time to learn alignment. The second is a vig variant. Both are unverified abilities.

 

[Reki]

Here's what I got so far;

Reki: Mikey, 15377/Minish (#689)
ExLight: Minish/Uwu (#693)
Minish: Ex/Mikey, maybe Uwu (#694)
Uwu: feeling Minish and Reki are town (#701)
Kirino: Uwu/Ex (#703)
SMS: Mikey, "Idk if I even have a number two" (#704)

That'd amount to something like
Mikey (3)
Minish (3)
Uwu (2)
ExLight (2)
Reki (1)

If I missed something please tell me so. Going by that Mikey and Minish are probably not getting whackinated today but, who knows.

The Miller stuff isn't relevant anymore, at least.

What still bothers me though is that he used it as a means to see who would or would not respond, holding that over are heads as the only reason not to kill him and then having it fail.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this, since it's been me who has asked 15377 about it and not Ex. When the whole LD stuff started, they said;

Why are you not having everybody say "I am town aligned." then? Seems more pertinent to clear the town and then make all the non town vie for not getting lynched.

But that's about it, 15377 is the only player that doesn't cooperate. Which is interesting considering he knows how this stuff usually works;

Not sure if Rag would let a lie detector shot work on statements like that so it could be a reaction test.

We use them on NGA with some minor frequency so I wouldn't put it outside of Rag's wheel house.

Question would be what does town!15377 get by not doing it? Nothing. What do they lose by not doing it? Nothing, either. So, why? The explanation - unconcerned with the LD, there's no point in making the statement - doesn't answer these questions, and makes me wonder.

What do you think, Uwu?

In this case, what was the point of not lynching him?

You know, I've been thinking about Ex's claimed M-2 condition and the current gamestate. We're at 8, most likely 5/2/1.

1. If we miseliminate today, tomorrow is either 3/2/1 or 2/2/1 depending on if there're one or two bodies. In that case, Ex is right. If town, he's always a game over liability.

2. If we correctly hit a meanie, tomorrow is either 4/1/1 or 3/1/1. In that case, town!Ex loses us the game just with the remaining meanie and one of SMS or a town player wanting to go there.

3. If we vote out SMS today, tomorrow is either 4/2 or 3/2. In both cases town!Ex loses us the game, probably immediately.

So... I'm coming to the conclusion that the mechanically correct play here is either go for Ex or someone we'd bet the game on being right about. Even if Ex was evil, and was baiting a vote here because he's, let's say, a Bomb, we've got a higher chance of tanking the loss today, unless we literally leave him for last.

Oh no.

finding town has just been too hard this game for me
sure I haven't been trying particularly hard, but is that really my fault?

You can do it buddy!

It was worth a try at least.

Sure it was.

What do you think of my comment to Uwu's about LyLo?

Spoiler: Stuff for 15377

I think we're starting to go in circles, since you seem convinced of the case and not willing to cede an inch while I think some of the points straight out don't make sense. Wanna answer a couple things briefly, though.

Yoir initial take was to town tell the behavior from Ex, which is what I meant by cred.

Not true. I didn't give any towncred for that, but pondered on what it meant. That's the whole point of bolding the doubts.

I can elaborate about everything in my role but I choose not to. It remains to be seen whether doing so will yield an advantage.

Sure, fair. Gonna call you out for dragging me for doing the same, though.

which also means you leave no trail of progression on your reads either

Untrue. My reads on the likes of Mikey, Viral, Minish, Chevy, etc. didn't appear out of thin air.

In terms of the Mikey vote specifically, I reasoned that out in 440.

This;

Hey listen, I wouldn't necessarily agree. Scum!Reki can easily see at that point that KJ is going down. If Mikey is scum too, he's going to claim the town pants off of the bus so scum!Reki has no reason to twilight bandwagon as they won't be able to also go for the town pants. But a scum!Reki can safely vote a scum!Mikey knowing it will have zero effect on the Lynch but serve the effect of distancing them in the coming days. It's also possible that SMS is scum partner to Reki and Mikey is 3p.

Which basically only works if Mikey and I are partnered, and that also is a revision of this other comment you made 7 posts earlier;

End of Day Reki still makes me lean scum in general, although the buzzer shot on Mikey does not, as there's nothing to be gained by that vote (KJ would still be lynched even if that was counted).

A W/W relation falls apart if you think that I was distancing with that vote, but then quickly made a U-turn into town-reading Mikey hard enough as to recently put him at the top of my list.

You've been so rigid in your read of the situation that the contradictions are becoming more apparent.

That's pretty standard for games suspected of having a tracker, as was discussed early day 3 when I brought up SmS watching me.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Thought of it at some point but forgot about it.

So. Johnny claimed to be a night Self-Watcher before dying, you seeing SMS's is either another Self-Watcher or SMS being Loud, and then SMS just claimed day/night Self-Watcher too.

You said "Creeper" in your post then. Was that the used phrasing?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

What do you think of my comment to Uwu's about LyLo?

Is this a response to me? I guess the thing about lynching Ex to prevent him from being an easy target for scum to try basing a case around to get a wagon on in Lylo is fine. I'd be pretty conflicted if it was Ex vs someone else in Lylo, and would rather not be in an endgame like that. That's assuming the game isn't just easy to solve and one scum would be Kirino, for example.

If lynching me is done in some hope it will favor the town's gamestate, it really doesn't. Town would be down my double vote, you still have 2 scum, and the problem with Ex in lylo. And like you said, worst scenario Ex is a bomb or something (which I probably don't believe, but would not completely rule out) and that's a bad spot. If he was a bomb though, he could have just let himself get lynched back on D3.

So ideally town lynches scum otherwise the game might be hard. It kind of comes down to what scum pairing sounds like it can make sense? My two main lines of thought are do I feel like the scum team in this game are comprised of players well versed in ZD meta, or not? And I think I maybe fall into the latter mindset more solidly. A kill on Jinjo isn't bad, but not really what I'd expect. Do I think that kill was done in some attempt to frame Ex? Idk. Do I think Ex is scum and decided on a whim to lynch Jinjo because she casted a tiny bit of shade on him? I mean... I know Ex can get kind of paranoid but I don't know if I believe he'd make that nightkill. I'm unsure how else the Jinjo kill makes sense besides it just being a random decision by a scum team.

The Chevy kill is also very random, maybe not something I'd expect from a group of ZD vets. I'd think they'd kill Minish before Chevy.

One of my fears when Minish doesn't get nightkilled at some point is that she could be scum, but I don't get the logic in a hypothetical scum Minish advising her team to waste a kill on her neighbor when she practically had him pocketed.

So yeah, idk if I'm onto something or if this is a stupid idea.

 

[Kirino]

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people town reading Minish. It seems like some people will just town read her no matter what.

The Chevy kill is also very random, maybe not something I'd expect from a group of ZD vets. I'd think they'd kill Minish before Chevy.

One of my fears when Minish doesn't get nightkilled at some point is that she could be scum, but I don't get the logic in a hypothetical scum Minish advising her team to waste a kill on her neighbor when she practically had him pocketed.

There were two kills last night. How do we know Chevy was the scum kill? Did I miss something?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people town reading Minish. It seems like some people will just town read her no matter what.


There were two kills last night. How do we know Chevy was the scum kill? Did I miss something?

People were leary of Viral, why would scum kill him when he could have been a mislynch today?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I'm honestly baffled by the amount of people town reading Minish. It seems like some people will just town read her no matter what.

She isn't cleared my any means but idk of her being scum makes sense here unless she is purposely doing stuff that makes no sense.

Did you claim yet?