Darkness and Realism

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

According to my other thread, which has everyone naming their favorite of the Zelda titles, it seems that Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess are the two most popular, with Ocarina of Time and A Link to the past coming next.

If you've already played MM and TP and compared them to other Zelda games, you undoubtedly realized that both of these titles are quite a bit darker than the others. They have a sense of continuing misery to them, as if the depression wouldn't truly stop until the game was beaten. I could also say this is true for OoT and ALttP, to a certain extent. When compared to FS or MC, OoT and ALttP boast quite a darker look and feel. And yet, these four seem to be the most loved: The darkest of the bunch. One could also say they had a more realistic style to them for the most part. ALttP featured some pretty sinister looking graphics, ones that really popped out. OoT and MM, while it didn't look it at the time, look much more realistic compared to their toony console counterpart, WW. There's no question that TP sported the most realistic of them all.

WW seemed to upset a trend that had been going on the console titles since ALttP. ALttP seemed to establish a certain standard of realism and darkness after games like LoZ and AoL. I think OoT did a good job of carrying it on, and MM did just as well if not better in some aspects with it. Then WW came along and their seemed to be an upset. According to my thread I mentioned, WW is pretty far behind ALttP, OoT, MM, and TP. Was their an upset merely because the sense of realism and darkness had been lost? Now, for those of you that are going to go and whine how WW's plot is "dark", please, compare it to the presentation of ALttP or MM before you do. There's no question as to which presents its plot in a darker manner.

My main question: Is darkness and realism welcome in the next console Zelda game? Like I said, according to my thread, it certainly seems it's most loved there, with MM and TP, the two darkest, taking the top spot. Do you want to see it there in the next Zelda adventure, which will surely be the largest of them all?

 

[basement24]

I think it's always something that would be welcome, but I think if it's overused then it will become a stale idea. Since we just had TP with the darker tone to it as the last console game in the series, then maybe it's a bit too soon to revisit the idea. I would welcome something that was equally as dark as TP was, but maybe not darker than it.

I see all of these concepts from fans of sequels where Hyrule's burning and is totally destroyed. Apocalypitic Hyrulean futures and the like. So, obviously there's a desire to see something dark (or really too dark) as a sequel, but in the end of the day I play video games to relax and have fun. Most of these fan interpretations just have the game getting more and more hopeless. I think TP and MM worked and were Zelda formula fitting because you were saving everyone from the darkness, not either causing it, or trying to save everyone and miserably failing.

I suppose that's a bit of a tangent, but essentially I think MM and TP work as the darker entries in the series because of the fact that they came along with a good gap inbetween them. Of course, there's darkness in all of the games, so I wouldn't want to see some happy sunshine romp of a game, but really for the next title we need to go a bit lighter before darker is a welcomed entry again.

 

[Shadsie]

I agree that there needs to be some kind of balance.

I would like to see more in the way of a gritty visual style, like TP, and a bit more blood (there was a "violence" topic somewhere on here) -ie. some battle damage to the tunic, some light blood spats when Link is down to one heart or after defeating certain bosses... nothing too heavy, though.

The apocalyptic thing and the "not being able to save everyone" actually really appeals to me, though. I think it comes from my being a Trigun fan. The hero, Vash was such a nice guy, you watch the anime or read the manga and you really feel for him, cheer for him, but it's clear that as many people has he does save and as much as he tries - he cannot save everyone (not even those close to him in some cases). Still, with all the death and destruction following him wherever he goes, many fans' reaction to the manga as it dragged on like this was "I'm getting depressed." Many people stopped reading/stopped being in the fandom after the death of a particular character. It was just getting to be too much. When a somewhat reversal/wacky end came to the manga, most remaining fans were like "What?"

And, even so, it never reached Evangelion-levels of pure darkness and depression.

My point is... I would like to see more realism and darkness in Zelda games (TP is my absolute favorite), but it shouldn't be overdone. I loved darkness in another thing I was a big fan of, but it got to be too much after a while, even as I was already into it. There should still be some of that fantasy and sweetness that is Zelda, just so dark elements stand out as being "Ooh, wow!" and "Thoughful!" and not as "Okay, this is getting overdrawn," or "I'd never thought I'd get depressed playing Zelda."

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I personally would love to see another dark Zelda especially if it's darker than TP was. I just love that Dark feel like everything wouldn't get resolved until you beat the game. For some reason or another it simply appeals to me.

If you've already played MM and TP and compared them to other Zelda games, you undoubtedly realized that both of these titles are quite a bit darker than the others. They have a sense of continuing misery to them, as if the depression wouldn't truly stop until the game was beaten. I could also say this is true for OoT and ALttP, to a certain extent. When compared to FS or MC, OoT and ALttP boast quite a darker look and feel. And yet, these four seem to be the most loved: The darkest of the bunch. One could also say they had a more realistic style to them for the most part. ALttP featured some pretty sinister looking graphics, ones that really popped out. OoT and MM, while it didn't look it at the time, look much more realistic compared to their toony console counterpart, WW. There's no question that TP sported the most realistic of them all.

Well OoT and ALttP are definatly dark and they did seem to set a trend of Dark Zelda console games. The reason they seem so realistic is because really Ganon/dorf is taking over and in ALttP Link barely saves Hyrule and the Sacred Realm/Dark World. Also I will admit WW did have a cartoony feel and no dark theme but there's nothing wrong with it. And I do agree so far TP is the most realistic of them all.

WW seemed to upset a trend that had been going on the console titles since ALttP. ALttP seemed to establish a certain standard of realism and darkness after games like LoZ and AoL. I think OoT did a good job of carrying it on, and MM did just as well if not better in some aspects with it. Then WW came along and their seemed to be an upset. According to my thread I mentioned, WW is pretty far behind ALttP, OoT, MM, and TP. Was their an upset merely because the sense of realism and darkness had been lost? Now, for those of you that are going to go and whine how WW's plot is "dark", please, compare it to the presentation of ALttP or MM before you do. There's no question as to which presents its plot in a darker manner.

MM kicked the rupees out of OoT and every other Zelda game so far in terms of a dark plot. First of all with there being the whole three days till armageddon theme and restarting time over and over again. I think the reason Nintendo didn't give WW a dark plot is because they're really predictable and they felt like shaking it up a bit and getting back to the non dark roots of the series but WW style.

My main question: Is darkness and realism welcome in the next console Zelda game? Like I said, according to my thread, it certainly seems it's most loved there, with MM and TP, the two darkest, taking the top spot. Do you want to see it there in the next Zelda adventure, which will surely be the largest of them all?

Heck yeah I'd want to see it darker. I love darkness. A dark Zelda game settles my soul (yes I was going for that Minish Cap reference). Well I'd like to see more things like blood in it but just a tiny bit more like scrapes on Link as he gets injured which heal as his hearts go back up.

 

[Niko Bellic 817]

I agree that there needs to be some kind of balance.

I would like to see more in the way of a gritty visual style, like TP, and a bit more blood (there was a "violence" topic somewhere on here) -ie. some battle damage to the tunic, some light blood spats when Link is down to one heart or after defeating certain bosses... nothing too heavy, though.

That would probably make the game rated M even if it's only a small amount. I liked the dark aspect of Twilight Princess and I think I'd like another zelda with the same tone. I wouldn't want a Resident Evil type of mood because it crosses the line at what Zelda games should be like. Majora's Mask darkness is another thing that should be avoided. I don't want another creepy Zelda game especially where you have an annoying time limit where you lose all items.>.< I'd love to see something similar to the TP dark world where the setting goes from a sinister, ominous feel to a normal feel. Seeing the dark world transforming into the light is very interesting to me. Princess Zelda should transform into something when she enters the dark world similar to how Link turns into a wolf in TP.

 

[Kell]

I personally consider OoT to be my favorite Zelda game, but MM comes within a hair's breadth and it has a lot to do with the dark tone of the game. One reason it's so dark is the combination of the fact that you know that all the characters are going to die in three days while you warp back and save yourself, and the fact that the gameplay style allows you so much more personal familiarization with the aforementioned dooomed citizens. It's this double whammy of impending destruction and endearing victims that pulls you into the game and makes you feel responsible to doing everything you can for their world.

Many side stories are so emotive and "mature", like the Deku Butler's son (so sad in the ending), Mikau dying and leaving Lulu, Darmani's sad death (and that sad scene of him being cheered by other Gorons), Anju and Kafei resigning themselves to die together, Grog resigning himself to die after seeing his Cuccos mature, and Kamaro's sad lament over his death, not to mention small things like an introduction to dementia (Anju's grandmother) and the Garo Master killing himself with a bomb to "leave no remains".

If MM had more dungeons, it's game save options were a bit less clumsy, and it didn't feel so inconsequential in the grand scheme of the Zelda series (it doesn't have much to at all to do with Hyrule) it could quite possibly outdo OoT, which of course, is quite an incredible feat.

Disclaimer: IMHO

 

[Hanyou]

Darkness is overrated.

Ocarina is my favorite Zelda game by far, but it's not just because it's dark. The themes it covers, its atmosphere, etc. are certainly powerful, but it's also adventurous and fun, and feels more like The Hobbit than Lord of the Rings. This does not mean the gravity of the situation is lost on anyone, but that adventure is the essential element of the experience. That Ganon is a compelling villain, and that the situation in Hyrule becomes graver as Link grows older, is good character and plot development, but would be for naught if it were simply "dark."

I find that "dark" games, with their restrained color palettes, stereotypical enemies, and depressing plotlines, to be in many ways the antithesis of the romanticized "hero's journey" that's so essential to the Legend of Zelda experience. They're not always bad (see Fallout 3), but they're missing that special something that makes for a really compelling adventure game. I don't want to see that happen to the Zelda franchise.

Unfortunately, I think Nintendo did attempt "darkness" with Twilight Princess, and in my opinion, they failed miserably. The game was dry, linear, and joyless from beginning to end, and it was never allowed to develop into the epic hero's journey that Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker were able to. I see this happening in the future, with future "dark" entries, because trying to make things more "mature" leads to terrible messes.

This does not mean the games can't explore real, tragic themes (Ocarina touched on genocide), or have apocalyptic plotlines or even sad endings (most Zelda games do). It just means they don't have to be all dark about it.

WW seemed to upset a trend that had been going on the console titles since ALttP. ALttP seemed to establish a certain standard of realism and darkness after games like LoZ and AoL. I think OoT did a good job of carrying it on, and MM did just as well if not better in some aspects with it. Then WW came along and their seemed to be an upset. According to my thread I mentioned, WW is pretty far behind ALttP, OoT, MM, and TP. Was their an upset merely because the sense of realism and darkness had been lost? Now, for those of you that are going to go and whine how WW's plot is "dark", please, compare it to the presentation of ALttP or MM before you do. There's no question as to which presents its plot in a darker manner.

A Link to the Past is depressing, mostly due to the Dark World (that's a major reason I dislike it), but I don't think it remotely aims for "realism." This is something that always baffles me--compared to other games of the early 16-bit era, how do people reach the conclusion that ALttP wasn't stylized in a way that almost excludes realism? Consider other early SNES releases--Contra 3, Castlevania 4, etc.--and I think it becomes obvious that the bubble-bodied characters in A Link to the Past, the rounded, almost gentle environments, are hardly "realistic." Nor was there a trend toward realism.

Link's Awakening, my favorite of the 2D games, is the funniest, most stylized, most childlike adventure of all the Zelda games, even moreso than The Wind Waker. While it borrowed heavily from ALttP's style (a testament to that style's original capacity for a lighthearted approach), it generally amounted to whimsical self-parody.

I've covered Ocarina and Majora's Mask in another topic I just posted in, so I'll leave it there. Suffice to say, if Nintendo wants to take that approach again, I'm behind it. There are certain merits to it. For example, I recently picked up Shadow of the Colossus, with its haunting, desolate landscape, and imagined it as a sort of realization of what the empty Legend of Zelda might feel like in the modern era. Nintendo can afford to be daring, and that kind of an approach would capitalize on the mystery of the Zelda franchise. But to expect it, to the exclusion of more lighthearted titles like The Wind Waker, is, I think, to undermine the series' default state. Also, I doubt Shadow of the Colossus is what people have in mind at all when they think "dark." I see neither the joy nor the mystery in most of the suggestions for "darkness" that I have seen.

I also hear much more praise for The Wind Waker than for the deeply flawed Twilight Princess, but maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong circles.

The apocalyptic thing and the "not being able to save everyone" actually really appeals to me, though. I think it comes from my being a Trigun fan. The hero, Vash was such a nice guy, you watch the anime or read the manga and you really feel for him, cheer for him, but it's clear that as many people has he does save and as much as he tries - he cannot save everyone (not even those close to him in some cases).

I know nothing about the manga, but I saw the anime, and, believe it or not, I think it basically did the same thing Ocarina of Time did: drew you into the world with a comedic, lighthearted spirit, and slammed down the tougher themes later. I liked that. But part of what's good about the anime is that it never got to be "too much;" there were still funny moments later on and the characters never got lost in all the "darkness."

If Nintendo wants to make its Zelda games darker, I wouldn't mind them using that approach once again.

 

[NULL]

Too me: Dark and Realistic = Not always good.

Sure, it can set good scenes, but it doesn't neccesaraly make a good game. It has to be about the gameplay, like i don't want to have to resort to playing WW for a good hearted game.

There's only so much deppresion you can take.

 

[Cucco Lady Anju]

I like darkness in my games. I would approve of the next Zelda console game being dark. I don't want too much realism though. Seeing Link bleeding and dying would make me want to put it down and go back to a Zelda game where you don't see that he's about to keel over. I don't play a Zelda game to see my favorite video character of all time ever get his clothes all riupped up and die in a pool of his own blood or any of that.

 

[Shadsie]

I know nothing about the manga, but I saw the anime, and, believe it or not, I think it basically did the same thing Ocarina of Time did: drew you into the world with a comedic, lighthearted spirit, and slammed down the tougher themes later. I liked that. But part of what's good about the anime is that it never got to be "too much;" there were still funny moments later on and the characters never got lost in all the "darkness."

If Nintendo wants to make its Zelda games darker, I wouldn't mind them using that approach once again.

Besides twitching a tiny bit at that "deeply flawed" comment on TP (I'm biased, it's my favorite), A little word on my Trigun example:

You are correct about the anime. I actually like the anime better for just this reason - it had plenty of darkness and tragedy, but wasn't overdrawn. What I was getting at was that I felt the manga to be overdrawn, because it hit those dark themes sooner in its run, and being longer than the anime, just drew them out for many volumes.

This example works for concept in Zelda games for me. I'd be very happy for Nintendo to make a Zelda game that was like the Trigun anime in its drama/dark/tragedy levels, but not like the Trigun manga - i.e. overdrawn. I think we already see this in Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Twlight Princess. They have a nice balance between darkness and whimsy. If Zelda became like some of the darkest mangas I've read, (Trigun manga, the bit of Hellsing I've read) or the *darkest* animes I've seen (Evangelion, the bit of Elfen Lied I've seen)... it wouldn't be "Zelda," or at least it would edge upon "not being Zelda" for me in almost the same way the latter volumes of Trigun Maximum edged on "not being Trigun anymore" for me.

 

[Kell]

I also hear much more praise for The Wind Waker than for the deeply flawed Twilight Princess, but maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong circles.

You hear more praise in general for WW because many gamers had low expectations for WW's ability to capture the Zelda feel or fit into the Zelda world because of it's "silly" or "childish" graphic style, but it's exceptional gameplay, endearing characters, and among other things, it's dramatic and almost reverent throwbacks to the Hero of Time and Oot, have caused it to greatly exceed expectations and quell previous doubts.

TP on the other hand was the first "realistic" Zelda since Oot & MM and as such, most fans expected it to be not only a return to form, but hopefully even an improvement on all previous Zelda games. That being the case, many gamers were disappointed (disappointed isn't the right word but it's the first one that comes to mind) when the game turned out to be just another Zelda game, and in some critics' opinions, a simple rehashing of OoT.

Basically I think that preconceived expectations play a large part in the public opinion between the two GCube Zeldas. Personally, I prefer TP because of it's realism and the fact that it feels more neatly put-together and familiar, though I still love WW for as I said before, it's tastefully executed references to the Hero of Time and OoT.

IMHO


P.S. why in the name of the Triforce would you refer to TP as "deeply flawed"? :huh: lol

 

[TVTMaster]

I'm just as confused as everyone else when you say that TP was "deeply flawed", but what I really don't see is how it was "dry" and "joyless". To be sure, it was a linear game, but in my opinion it was linear mainly for its well-delivered storyline and ability to convey the world outside of the context of the "game". While many other Zelda games presented you with a game to complete, motivated by wanting to play the next dungeon or find the next secret, Twilight Princess, through its linear presentation, motivated you to keep going with the reward of a richly crafted world full of detail and mystery. You wanted to find the next dungeon, not because you wanted to beat it and get its treasure, but because you wanted to see what was in the dungeon- experience its mood, history, and intrigue, exploring because the setting as a whole was compelling and interesting.

Twilight Princess is easily the best Zelda when it comes to its world-building. The dungeons are compelling for their mystery- the beautifully detailed and thought-provoking ruins of the Snowpeak Mansion and the Arbiter's Grounds, the alien wonder of the Temple of Time and the City in the Sky, and the sense of learning when exploring the cultural heritage of the people you're saving in the Goron Mines and Lakebed Temple. Even the rest of the world is lovingly crafted- Coro, Hena, and Iza's family and their various enterprises, the beauty of the Zora's Domain, the unforgiving mountainside and hardy people of Death Mountain, the details of the allegedly empty Castle Town, the almost comical Bulblins, and the various subplots among the Ordon children.

In short, Twilight Princess is nowhere near dry and joyless- TP's Hyrule is the most vibrant, alive, and real setting I've ever seen in a video game. The darkness of the plot is really superficial- "oh, gee, bad monsters and it's kinda dark, so let's kill stuff till its better again". The real meat of TP is in the vibrant, detailed world.

 

[lonely_moon]

I personally like my games to have a certain degree of darkness, but it should never become too much. Like NULL said, there's only so much depression you can take. And a depressing Zelda game...well...wouldn't feel like Zelda.

I loved TP. I loved the vibrant world, the gripping plot and the fluid gameplay. It was highly polished in its presentation. Naturally, I have a few gripes with it, but it was overall excellent. Each Zelda game has something that sets it apart from the others, and for Twilight Princess, it was its darker plot, emphasized by the gloomy visuals. There was so much uncertainty in the story that gave it tension, and yet it never let the darkness consume it. There were still many lighter moments.

I can't say too much for MM, having not played much of it, but from what I've seen it also has a very interesting plot backed up by an underlying hopelessness. The world is going to end in three days; how would you feel? Everyone has their problems, and you have to help them out. Everyone has an interesting backstory, and it's not always a pleasant one, either. I loved the overall presentation of the game, as well - this is most likely due to graphical limitations, but I felt that its bright art style and happy music created a facade for what was really a depressing story. The entire game is in denial, much like the denizens of Termina.

The conclusion? There has to be a balance. Darkness creates an interesting plot, but it can't bog down the audience with depression. There has to be something to give them optimism, something to cling on to, to reassure them that everything will turn out OK. That will be a Zelda that I will very much look forward to.

 

[dur.i.am]

To answer your question, yes. I believe that there being another title that is dark for the Wii would be welcome, however, I don't think it would be welcome if it were to be much darker than TP for the reason that it would seem like they want to copy OoT being dark flowing through to MM, One of the top 2 darkest Zelda games out there.

Then again though, If they did make another game like MM being just a dark or even darker than that, that it may be welcome. Many hardcore Zelda fans see Majora's Mask of one of the top 4 Zelda games ever made, If they were to actually follow this game then I believe it would please the hardcore fans out there, even more so if they make it a realistic game (unlike the already mentioned WW that upset the trend and one of the more unpopular games out here). I certainly would be happy if they were to introduce a dark and realistic game that strayed away from Zelda's classic "Hyrule gets aken over by Ganon/dorf, He kidnaps Princess, Link has to save her".

I think if they did make a bigger, darker and more realistic game like MM was then the game could be a very popular game among fans. However, Nintendo would start to look as if they were running out of ideas for the series and have begun renewing older games in new ways so it would be just as good idea to make a lighter Zelda (I've already recieved the image that the next Zelda for the Wii will be lighter than TP from the picture but hey, I could easily be wrong) just to make sure that Nintendo are mixing up there games and it shows us they still have ideas and creativity left.

Nintendo should stick to the games being more realistic (except for the games that are on the DS or are aimed for a younger audience, which is what I think the Cel-shaded Zelda's are anyway). WW upset the theme that Nintendo had with the cartoony style in my opinion, I feel that it's just too unrealistic for Nintendo to copy that style for another main platform Zelda.

If Nintendo get the mix correct between being light and dark correct, I think the new Zelda could be one of the top 5 most popular, unless they make it even easier than TP was.