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Spoiler Could the Downfall Timeline be Link dying against Ganondorf in an alternate CHILD Timeline?

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I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that Ganon's execution actually happened a few years after Link alerted the Royal Family according to HH. So, sometime after Majora's Mask.
 
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Oct 10, 2017
Also, the sages in TP are not the same sages in OoT, as they never awaken in the child timeline.
The sages in ALttP's backstory are not the sages from OoT, they are all Hylian men. This is true in TP's backstory. In fact, I literally called this out in one of the points in the op as support for the theory.

I'm still not onboard with the idea that we know who, or what those sages are. The floating faces always seem to me like they were masks. what we see are disguises. I still have yet to come across any definitive evidence that the sages in Twilight Princess are not the ones from Ocarina of Time. I'm not saying they have to be, just that we can't say they aren't.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
I'm still not onboard with the idea that we know who, or what those sages are. The floating faces always seem to me like they were masks. what we see are disguises. I still have yet to come across any definitive evidence that the sages in Twilight Princess are not the ones from Ocarina of Time. I'm not saying they have to be, just that we can't say they aren't.
Twilight Princess is in the child timeline, and the sages are never awakened in the child portion of OoT. I guess they theoretically could’ve been awakened sometime in between OoT and whenever the execution flashback takes place, but that would be a massive stretch as that would require them to not only all have a reason to awaken in a relatively similar timeframe, but also somehow change shape in order to fit the physical appearance in TP. Keep in mind that the execution cutscene takes place at most within a few years of OoT. I think that it’s pretty safe to say that they’re not the same, or at the very least they’re only kinda related.
 
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Twilight Princess is in the child timeline, and the sages are never awakened in the child portion of OoT. I guess they theoretically could’ve been awakened sometime in between OoT and whenever the execution flashback takes place, but that would be a massive stretch as that would require them to not only all have a reason to awaken in a relatively similar timeframe, but also somehow change shape in order to fit the physical appearance in TP. Keep in mind that the execution cutscene takes place at most within a few years of OoT.

Changing shape isn't an issue. Like I said, it's a disguise. Many desguises in the series are magical in nature. As for their awakening, Link is the most likely way for it to happen. We know that Link spent some time with Zelda. He had the time to inform the unawakened sages of their power. The time frame is a bit of an issue if we assume a quick series of events, but still not defenitive. I doubt a country of loyal, or even brainwashed, Gerudo warriors stood by as their king was imprisoned. Dealing with them would have taken a long time.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Changing shape isn't an issue. Like I said, it's a disguise. Many desguises in the series are magical in nature. As for their awakening, Link is the most likely way for it to happen. We know that Link spent some time with Zelda. He had the time to inform the unawakened sages of their power. The time frame is a bit of an issue if we assume a quick series of events, but still not defenitive. I doubt a country of loyal, or even brainwashed, Gerudo warriors stood by as their king was imprisoned. Dealing with them would have taken a long time.
Changing shape certainly is an issue if they don’t know how to do it, and Impa is the only one that it’s safe to assume knows how to. Even then, why would they need to? It’s not like they need to be disguised for anything. For that matter, sure Link could probably awaken them, but why would he? He has no reason to need to awaken them, especially since in the adult timeline they’re all killed in the process of awakening. I guess you could have a point with the time frame, but at the same time you have to remember that not every gerudo was loyal to Ganandorf, in fact it’s pretty safe to say that a good chunk of them were loyal to Nabooru seeing as how she managed to command enough respect to become Ganondorfs second in command in the adult timeline.

I guess it’s possible that they could be the same, but you’d have to jump through so many hoops for that to be the case that it’s kinda hard to really take that possibility seriously.
 
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Changing shape certainly is an issue if they don’t know how to do it, and Impa is the only one that it’s safe to assume knows how to. Even then, why would they need to? It’s not like they need to be disguised for anything. For that matter, sure Link could probably awaken them, but why would he? He has no reason to need to awaken them, especially since in the adult timeline they’re all killed in the process of awakening. I guess you could have a point with the time frame, but at the same time you have to remember that not every gerudo was loyal to Ganandorf, in fact it’s pretty safe to say that a good chunk of them were loyal to Nabooru seeing as how she managed to command enough respect to become Ganondorfs second in command in the adult timeline.

I guess it’s possible that they could be the same, but you’d have to jump through so many hoops for that to be the case that it’s kinda hard to really take that possibility seriously.

Lets not forget Rauru. As far I can find, he is never shown to be dead, and he is able to turn into an owl. He obviously had reason enough to operate in disguise, even before the game started. Link's recounting of events could have easily led to awakenings that didn't involve their death.

In my estimation, the amount of hoops requiered for one, is required for the other. The idea that they never awoke in one timeline, as apposed the other one, is built on assumptions.

The few things we do know, is that Breath of the Wild was obviously intended to be able to take place at the end of all three timelines. (Whether we accept that, or prefer to lock it into one is another issue.) We know then, that a Zora princess named Ruto becomes a sage, at some point. She may very well be one in the same, but would have to be a second Ruto for the first to not be a sage.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Lets not forget Rauru. As far I can find, he is never shown to be dead, and he is able to turn into an owl. He obviously had reason enough to operate in disguise, even before the game started. Link's recounting of events could have easily led to awakenings that didn't involve their death.

In my estimation, the amount of hoops requiered for one, is required for the other. The idea that they never awoke in one timeline, as apposed the other one, is built on assumptions.

The few things we do know, is that Breath of the Wild was obviously intended to be able to take place at the end of all three timelines. (Whether we accept that, or prefer to lock it into one is another issue.) We know then, that a Zora princess named Ruto becomes a sage, at some point. She may very well be one in the same, but would have to be a second Ruto for the first to not be a sage.
Ok fine, Rauru has the ability to turn into an Owl. You’re missing my point though, why would they want to disguise themselves? What purpose would a disguise serve the sages in TP? Just because something can happen doesn’t mean it does.

There are exactly zero assumptions needed for my point. In order for the sages to be the same you need to not only assume that Link awakens them, but that he has a motive to awaken them and that they have a motive to wear disguise. None of that is ever shown, so the baseline is that there isnt. The theory that they’re separate requires nothing but what is shown in-game.

Breath of the Wild obviously was not intended to be at the end of all three timelines. That’s a theory, and a rather absurd one at that. If anything you’re trying to use one theory to prove another, even though the first theory relies on the second in order to work.
 
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Ok fine, Rauru has the ability to turn into an Owl. You’re missing my point though, why would they want to disguise themselves? What purpose would a disguise serve the sages in TP? Just because something can happen doesn’t mean it does.

There are exactly zero assumptions needed for my point. In order for the sages to be the same you need to not only assume that Link awakens them, but that he has a motive to awaken them and that they have a motive to wear disguise. None of that is ever shown, so the baseline is that there isnt. The theory that they’re separate requires nothing but what is shown in-game.

Breath of the Wild obviously was not intended to be at the end of all three timelines. That’s a theory, and a rather absurd one at that. If anything you’re trying to use one theory to prove another, even though the first theory relies on the second in order to work.

Okay, let me break it down this way. There are two fundamental questions at play:

Did Link only give enough information to the royal family to get Ganondorf arrested, or did he say/do more?

Are the images we see of the sages accurate to who they are, relative to other games?

Each answer is an assumption because we don't actually know. For us to say that those characters don't become sages, we answer one way. If we say that they do, we answer the other way. My whole point, is that we don't know, and there is equal room for speculation. The rest comes down to support for the chosen narrative.

As for the timeline placement; the creators, them selves, have released statements that enough time has passed to allow for any placement. On top of that, the official website still refuses to place Breath of the Wild on a timeline. Then there are the many indications throughout the game that suggest each game. The Leviathan quest is a very obvious indication of this. The fact that the game was designed to be the future of any of the three timelines is not a theory. Placing it into a time line, or saying that it is a convergence is a theory. I personally think the downfall is the best fit, but that doesn't mean I think the downfall placement is confirmed. I do think we need to take the idea that it can fit any of the three seriously.

As for the "why" about disguises, versus the sages appearing like Hylian males. It is generally accepted that the sages were awakened for the downfall timeline, yet the Sages, or Wise Men in the original text, looked like Hylian men, under hoods, no less. My point about Rauru was not just that he could turn into, or be disguised as (at the very least) as, an owl, but that he did it on the regular, with or without an obvious reason. And, even if the sages we see in Twilight Princess are different people, we never see those forms used anywhere else; those are not their natural forms. No Hylian has a floating face. The sages around that time seem to have a long running theme of being disguised.
 

thePlinko

What’s the character limit on this? Aksnfiskwjfjsk
ZD Legend
Did Link only give enough information to the royal family to get Ganondorf arrested, or did he say/do more?
The first option is the baseline as that’s as far as any lore supports. It’s not an assumption that Link gave enough information to get Ganondorf arrested as that’s clearly stated in multiple pieces of media. Since that is the furthest you can prove, the safer assumption is that he did nothing more than tell the royal family, especially since anything else that he could’ve done would’ve had to have happened in the incredibly brief amount of time between OoT and MM.


Each answer is an assumption because we don't actually know. For us to say that those characters don't become sages, we answer one way. If we say that they do, we answer the other way. My whole point, is that we don't know, and there is equal room for speculation. The rest comes down to support for the chosen narrative..
In the same way that we can speculate whether or not Link had a turkey on rye for lunch the day before fighting Ganondorf, sure. Either way requires multiple assumptions, but at the same time one of them is clearly a safer assumption than the other. The hoops that you’d have to jump through to support the idea that they’re the same sages would require that the existence of something be true. Logically, it’s always better to assume that something doesn’t exist than that it does. Turkeys have not been shown to exist in the Zelda multiverse, so while it’s technically plausible that he could’ve eaten a turkey on rye, it’s much safer to assume that he didn’t.


As for the timeline placement; the creators, them selves, have released statements that enough time has passed to allow for any placement.
Have they? I remember them saying that it took place at the end and that they didn’t wan’t to specify which one, but I don’t remember anyone ever saying that they went out of their way to make it so that BotW could fit anywhere.




The Leviathan quest is a very obvious indication of this.
How? Sure there are three scientists with different theories, but it’s not like any of those theories align with the different timelines aside from maybe the drought being connected with the adult timeline, and even then thats pretty obviously just referencing the fact that the corresponding levitation is in the desert.

I personally think the downfall is the best fit, but that doesn't mean I think the downfall placement is confirmed.
I never said that it was confirmed, just that that’s the only theory that makes sense.


I do think we need to take the idea that it can fit any of the three seriously.
Once again, turkey on rye. You could probably craft a scenario, albeit a contrived and unlikely one, that allows a child timeline placement to make sense, I’ll concede that. However, an adult timeline placement (and by extension a fully converging timeline) is almost completely out of the question.

I don’t care how long of a gap there would be in between ST and BotW, an adult timeline placement would not only require that Hyrule is completely drained, but also that:

  • Multiple parts of Hyrule (ie: Lon Lon Ranch) be left at least partially intact after literally thousands of years of flooding both before and after the events of WW
  • Everyone from New Hyrule, including the royal family, decides to leave their homes and go back to Old Hyrule for some reason
  • They all either perfectly remember the significance of every single location and item that they left behind (keep in mind that WW literally says that nobody even has a vague knowledge of Hyrule, and that by Spirit Tracks not a single character makes a reference to any aspect of Hyrule), or they just happen to name everything the exact same thing as before
  • They somehow manage to construct, lose, and rediscover giant robots. Granted this point applies to all three timelines, but it’s especially worth noting here as this would have to happen in addition to every other point.
  • The Zora somehow reemerge after evolving into Rito prior to WW, despite the fact that the Rito are still in BotW and look nothing like their WW counterparts.

An adult timeline placement is possible with the biggest technicality imaginable, and that’s not even mentioning the fact that having a game with Ganon as the villain take place after WW would completely miss the entire point of WWs story. Even if they did say that BotW was made to fit into any timeline, it’s pretty obvious that it wasn’t as it literally does not fit into the adult timeline in any feasible way.


As for the "why" about disguises, versus the sages appearing like Hylian males. It is generally accepted that the sages were awakened for the downfall timeline, yet the Sages, or Wise Men in the original text, looked like Hylian men, under hoods, no less. My point about Rauru was not just that he could turn into, or be disguised as (at the very least) as, an owl, but that he did it on the regular, with or without an obvious reason. And, even if the sages we see in Twilight Princess are different people, we never see those forms used anywhere else; those are not their natural forms. No Hylian has a floating face. The sages around that time seem to have a long running theme of being disguised.
Ok, in that case, why didn’t any of the sages disguise themselves in OoT? I mean, the sages are all wearing robes in the intro to LttP, by your own logic that should mean that they should be wearing robes in OoT as well.

What about the sages in other games? They weren’t disguised in WW. The descendants of the sages are generally also sages, and yet none of the maidens in LttP are ever disguised. If you want to include games that released after TP, the sages also appear in LBW undisguised. Even Rauru’s owl form is less of a disguise and more of a mortal form of an immortal spirit made in order to assist link, as he has no issue appearing to him in a non-disguised form while in the sacred realm.

Just because a group called the “sages” are wearing masks in one game and robes in another doesn’t mean that they’re commonly disguised.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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I think this point is getting looked at way too deeply than it needs to be. By logic of Occam's Razor, there is no point for new sages to awaken when the old sages didn't die on the Child Timeline, this is what it boils down to with all other info eliminated from the discussion.

I always thought the only reason Rauru took owl form was to watch over Link during his childhood, and when the time came, to be more approachable as a guide than a random disembodied voice.
 
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I do need to get back to work; we are gearing up for finals, so this will be it for me for a while, despite enjoying the debate.

The first option is the baseline as that’s as far as any lore supports. It’s not an assumption that Link gave enough information to get Ganondorf arrested as that’s clearly stated in multiple pieces of media. Since that is the furthest you can prove, the safer assumption is that he did nothing more than tell the royal family, especially since anything else that he could’ve done would’ve had to have happened in the incredibly brief amount of time between OoT and MM.



In the same way that we can speculate whether or not Link had a turkey on rye for lunch the day before fighting Ganondorf, sure. Either way requires multiple assumptions, but at the same time one of them is clearly a safer assumption than the other. The hoops that you’d have to jump through to support the idea that they’re the same sages would require that the existence of something be true. Logically, it’s always better to assume that something doesn’t exist than that it does. Turkeys have not been shown to exist in the Zelda multiverse, so while it’s technically plausible that he could’ve eaten a turkey on rye, it’s much safer to assume that he didn’t.



Have they? I remember them saying that it took place at the end and that they didn’t wan’t to specify which one, but I don’t remember anyone ever saying that they went out of their way to make it so that BotW could fit anywhere.





How? Sure there are three scientists with different theories, but it’s not like any of those theories align with the different timelines aside from maybe the drought being connected with the adult timeline, and even then thats pretty obviously just referencing the fact that the corresponding levitation is in the desert.


I never said that it was confirmed, just that that’s the only theory that makes sense.



Once again, turkey on rye. You could probably craft a scenario, albeit a contrived and unlikely one, that allows a child timeline placement to make sense, I’ll concede that. However, an adult timeline placement (and by extension a fully converging timeline) is almost completely out of the question.

I don’t care how long of a gap there would be in between ST and BotW, an adult timeline placement would not only require that Hyrule is completely drained, but also that:

  • Multiple parts of Hyrule (ie: Lon Lon Ranch) be left at least partially intact after literally thousands of years of flooding both before and after the events of WW
  • Everyone from New Hyrule, including the royal family, decides to leave their homes and go back to Old Hyrule for some reason
  • They all either perfectly remember the significance of every single location and item that they left behind (keep in mind that WW literally says that nobody even has a vague knowledge of Hyrule, and that by Spirit Tracks not a single character makes a reference to any aspect of Hyrule), or they just happen to name everything the exact same thing as before
  • They somehow manage to construct, lose, and rediscover giant robots. Granted this point applies to all three timelines, but it’s especially worth noting here as this would have to happen in addition to every other point.
  • The Zora somehow reemerge after evolving into Rito prior to WW, despite the fact that the Rito are still in BotW and look nothing like their WW counterparts.

An adult timeline placement is possible with the biggest technicality imaginable, and that’s not even mentioning the fact that having a game with Ganon as the villain take place after WW would completely miss the entire point of WWs story. Even if they did say that BotW was made to fit into any timeline, it’s pretty obvious that it wasn’t as it literally does not fit into the adult timeline in any feasible way.



Ok, in that case, why didn’t any of the sages disguise themselves in OoT? I mean, the sages are all wearing robes in the intro to LttP, by your own logic that should mean that they should be wearing robes in OoT as well.

What about the sages in other games? They weren’t disguised in WW. The descendants of the sages are generally also sages, and yet none of the maidens in LttP are ever disguised. If you want to include games that released after TP, the sages also appear in LBW undisguised. Even Rauru’s owl form is less of a disguise and more of a mortal form of an immortal spirit made in order to assist link, as he has no issue appearing to him in a non-disguised form while in the sacred realm.

Just because a group called the “sages” are wearing masks in one game and robes in another doesn’t mean that they’re commonly disguised.

I will need to sum my reply to one idea, at the core of our fun dance, despite you providing a lot of good points, that I wish I had time to get into.

The idea that we can rely on just what was said in out presence ignores the fact that we are talking about a young boy that shows up in the middle of the kingdom, knowing details that they shouldn't. You know that the people in charge will want the full story. Remember, in Majora's Mask, we see a flashback where Zelda states, " I'll never forget the days we spent together in Hyrule... " Being that the two spent at least two days together, I find it very unlikely that he only talked about Ganondorf. He may have talked about turkey on rye, but I am sure the adults listening to him would have been far more interested in the useful information he could give them. It's not a question about if Link said more, but what he did say.

I think this point is getting looked at way too deeply than it needs to be. By logic of Occam's Razor, there is no point for new sages to awaken when the old sages didn't die on the Child Timeline, this is what it boils down to with all other info eliminated from the discussion.

I always thought the only reason Rauru took owl form was to watch over Link during his childhood, and when the time came, to be more approachable as a guide than a random disembodied voice.

This is a good point. let me add that we do see that sages have successors, which opens the door up even wider for speculation. If the ones we see in Twilight Princess were the old sages, Ruto would have likely still been chosen to replace the one we see killed. Succession is genuinely a way for the characters in question to become sages, that I didn't think about. This makes me even more certain the group does become sages, but less certain about when that would have to be.

Also, the proper use of Occam's Razor is to help separate the more likely options, from the less likely, not to falsify an option. It's why I think some theories are very likely, but I can't say that it is absolutely true.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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Also, the proper use of Occam's Razor is to help separate the more likely options, from the less likely, not to falsify an option. It's why I think some theories are very likely, but I can't say that it is absolutely true.
I didn't say it falsifies an opinion. Occam's Razor states that generally the theory with the simpliest explaination is to be preferred over one that needs to be overly complex.

Trying to explain why the sages in Twilight Princess would be in disguises to prove a theory that those sages could be the ones from Ocarina of Time requires way more mental gymnastics than the theory that it's not them. So by Occam's Razor, the theory that it's not the sages from Ocarina of Time is to be preferred over the other.


Ruto would have likely still been chosen to replace the one we see killed. Succession is genuinely a way for the characters in question to become sages, that I didn't think about. This makes me even more certain the group does become sages, but less certain about when that would have to be.
The spot is empty in Twilight Princess, so the mantle of Water sage had no successor. If the spot was filled it had to have been after Twilight Princess, so Ruto would not be able to replace the sage that was killed.
 

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