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Spoiler Conflict Between Enjoyable Games and Offensive Messages in Them

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Gender
Shewhale
And that's why I hate this game. The assertion that, in the end, the faith in God made Dewitt no better a man than without that faith. The assertion that faith is inherently a corrupting force, the assertion that faith inherently causes people to develop abhorrent traits within themselves, THAT's why I hate it. Being a man of faith myself I can attest that faith in and of itself is a beneficial force. It gives you peace beyond understanding and assurance beyond reason (not WITHOUT reason as so many people would proclaim; it goes beyond what reason can determine on its own and allows us to trust in God in matters we cannot possibly know on our own).

If the game made more of a point about the misuses of faith, I would be better with that. But it does not. It concludes that faith in and of itself is not a worthwhile goal, and that's why I hate it.
Hmm, I always interpreted it as whatever path Booker chooses [Religious path or non] he still turns out to be a morally bad person, thus proving that either path isn't ideal. It doesn't really imply that choosing a religious path is the wrong one; it's just an *alternate* one, which is what a lot of the game is about (alternate worlds and such).

Both paths lead Booker to the same fate whether he was religious or non-religous, so the game isn't really highlighting one path as being the wrong one. Booker, in the end, dies either way in a similar vain.
 
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Ericzander

tinyurl.com/mtkslrd
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Location
Illinois
Assassin's Creed actually has far more atheist propaganda than any attacks against a single belief. You see many beliefs be thrown aside in the conflict, whether it's the corrupted Pope, Rodrigo Borgia, or the power-hungry has-been Sultan, Ahmet.

Not really justifying kicking an old man in the groin, but I see it as a general anti-religion game. That may actually offend more people, though.

*Source: The Templars and the Assassins: The Militia of Heaven by James Wasserman.
I didn't mean to make it sound like I only had a problem with it being anti-Christian. I only mentioned Christianity because that's what I am. I'm sure I'd feel similar if I was a Muslim. And, of course, the events in the game didn't actually happen (or did it? Dun dun dunnnnn).

To be honest, I'm not *really* offended by any of it. I was just trying to find an answer to the question. If I hated the way the series treats religion, I wouldn't be playing the 5th (6th since I played AC:Liberation as well) game in the series.
 
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
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The Hall of Darkness
I'm not what one would call religious so religion or things of a religious nature being twisted in games doesn't bother me, and although racism in reality offends me, it doesn't for the most part when in video games because it isn't real, basically things of an offensive nature when placed in games are far less offensive to me because its in a game and if games that are prone to possessing such content offend you don't play them.

People should be far less concerned with how religeon and faith are depicted in games as it is not real, it's just a story element/game mechanic, if it was real life then it's something to get offended by or to be concerned about, and on the subject of faith/religion being a corrupting agent in bioshock, did the game actually say anything of the such or are you just inferring that it did because I really doubt that the game says religion/faith is inherently negative or evil, he's just a crazy guy that used religion and faith to justify his actions/beliefs but the important thing here is that he's not real so those of you who are offended by this kind of stuff, don't let it get to you.

I apologize if I have offended anyone, and if so it was not my intension.

Side note.
Religion and faith are not inherently good or evil but have been used for both throughout history.
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
I'm not what one would call religious so religion or things of a religious nature being twisted in games doesn't bother me, and although racism in reality offends me, it doesn't for the most part when in video games because it isn't real, basically things of an offensive nature when placed in games are far less offensive to me because its in a game and if games that are prone to possessing such content offend you don't play them.

People should be far less concerned with how religeon and faith are depicted in games as it is not real, it's just a story element/game mechanic, if it was real life then it's something to get offended by or to be concerned about, and on the subject of faith/religion being a corrupting agent in bioshock, did the game actually say anything of the such or are you just inferring that it did because I really doubt that the game says religion/faith is inherently negative or evil, he's just a crazy guy that used religion and faith to justify his actions/beliefs but the important thing here is that he's not real so those of you who are offended by this kind of stuff, don't let it get to you.

I apologize if I have offended anyone, and if so it was not my intension.

Side note.
Religion and faith are not inherently good or evil but have been used for both throughout history.

I think it's important to take what the developers are conveying in their games at face value since, while they are indeed games & not real, they can still affect how you view things. True, playing one game that says "Religion is bad" won't turn you anti-religious, but play a good 20 or 40 games with that same message, along with that same message being conveyed in TV shows, movies, books... well, that message starts to sink in further into your mind, whether you really realize it or not. And with the very end of the game: Baptism is our most sacred of sacraments, and to see it being perverted in such an egregious way is a monstrous affront to my faith, whether it's real or not. The creators of the game made a very powerful message at the end whether they themselves realize it or not, and they ended up pissing a LOT of people off by doing something just for thematic resonance.

And as far as Infinite goes, it's pretty hard to ignore the signs and message, since it's pretty much plastered everywhere you go in Columbia. And it's impossible to ignore the signs when Comstock is drowned in his baptism pool and when Booker is drowned by Anna in that perversion of a baptism at the very end. It's basically stating "Faith will eventually kill you". Kinda hard to miss. And no, Comstock was not just a crazy guy using religion as a way to justify his actions, he had a spiritual revival and truly believed to his core that what he was doing was right in the eyes of God.
 

cthuluhu

nine arts dragon
Joined
Oct 13, 2013
Location
Canada
I understand that many works of fiction can and will offend some people, I mean, its inevitable for someone to dislike or be offended by at least one thing when encountering fiction. I find its best not to put too much thought into it, because, I mean, its not like its actually out there happening. Characters in fiction are supposed to have captivating things about them that make you want to think more. Well, good characters should. I found that Bioshock Infinite was a very good game, and quite honestly, if youve made it that far, its worth finishing. Not finishing it is like making a best friend and then pushing them aside because they've offended you.
 

Ganondork

goo
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Sir Quaffler said:
And as far as Infinite goes, it's pretty hard to ignore the signs and message, since it's pretty much plastered everywhere you go in Columbia.

I am a bit interested in picking your brains on this matter. I'm not particularly religious in a Christian sense, so I didn't see Bioshock Infinite much differently than I did its previous installments, so I'd like to view your point of view on these things. I understand your taking offense to Booker's baptism, and how Comstock was murdered at his baptism pool, but what did you think of how it was portrayed throughout the rest of the game? Were you offended by the Holy Trinity essentially being Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin? Did propaganda such as this one

8y7Ec.jpg

offend you? The particular part that I am wondering in the last bit is how sin and unlawfulness essentially were interchangeable in Columbia, and how it affected you when you played the game. Was it just the nature in which baptism was depicted that offended you, or was Columbia's approach to religion entirely offensive?
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
I am a bit interested in picking your brains on this matter. I'm not particularly religious in a Christian sense, so I didn't see Bioshock Infinite much differently than I did its previous installments, so I'd like to view your point of view on these things. I understand your taking offense to Booker's baptism, and how Comstock was murdered at his baptism pool, but what did you think of how it was portrayed throughout the rest of the game? Were you offended by the Holy Trinity essentially being Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin? Did propaganda such as this one

8y7Ec.jpg

offend you? The particular part that I am wondering in the last bit is how sin and unlawfulness essentially were interchangeable in Columbia, and how it affected you when you played the game. Was it just the nature in which baptism was depicted that offended you, or was Columbia's approach to religion entirely offensive?

That's actually interesting Keith. Ok, I'll go along with it.

The two particular examples you posted, that of the Trinity being Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin, didn't offend me per se, but I could definitely see where the creators were going with that and remained guarded to its message, and the same thing with sin being interchangeable with unlawfulness. Same thing with much of the other propoganda strewn throughout the game, like with the Song Bird being an obvious stand-in for a guardian angel and Elizabeth/Anna being another obvious stand-in, only for Jesus Christ instead.

When I booted up the game, I found it somewhat disquieting that they would have you enter the city by way of baptism, with all the extremely-devout people on the other side spouting their praises to Comstock and the Three Fathers, and I remember thinking "Wow, they're really shoving this whole theistic argument in our faces, aren't they?" But, right after that I got to wander around the steampunk floating city and mess around with all the cool gizmos and Vigors, and I didn't give it much thought afterwards. But then... it just kept happening over and over. I would be wandering around minding my own business & blasting goons off of rails with my steampunk RPG and electrified hand, when yet another propoganda poster was on the wall or someone was talking about the Great Prophet Comstock or how Comstock was evil or how God will bring the fire down upon the heathen lands below, and it became harder and harder to ignore. By the time I finally reached Comstock in his Zeppelin I was already pretty aggravated with the game for doing what it did when ALL I WANTED was a fun action-packed steampunk reality-hopping adventure in a floating city, but I could still go forth.

After Comstock's death, I seriously debated whether I wanted to keep playing, and after the ending I was absolutely certain I never wanted to play it again.
 

Ganondork

goo
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Sir Quaffler said:
That's actually interesting Keith. Ok, I'll go along with it.

The two particular examples you posted, that of the Trinity being Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin, didn't offend me per se, but I could definitely see where the creators were going with that and remained guarded to its message, and the same thing with sin being interchangeable with unlawfulness. Same thing with much of the other propoganda strewn throughout the game, like with the Song Bird being an obvious stand-in for a guardian angel and Elizabeth/Anna being another obvious stand-in, only for Jesus Christ instead.

When I booted up the game, I found it somewhat disquieting that they would have you enter the city by way of baptism, with all the extremely-devout people on the other side spouting their praises to Comstock and the Three Fathers, and I remember thinking "Wow, they're really shoving this whole theistic argument in our faces, aren't they?" But, right after that I got to wander around the steampunk floating city and mess around with all the cool gizmos and Vigors, and I didn't give it much thought afterwards. But then... it just kept happening over and over. I would be wandering around minding my own business & blasting goons off of rails with my steampunk RPG and electrified hand, when yet another propoganda poster was on the wall or someone was talking about the Great Prophet Comstock or how Comstock was evil or how God will bring the fire down upon the heathen lands below, and it became harder and harder to ignore. By the time I finally reached Comstock in his Zeppelin I was already pretty aggravated with the game for doing what it did when ALL I WANTED was a fun action-packed steampunk reality-hopping adventure in a floating city, but I could still go forth.

After Comstock's death, I seriously debated whether I wanted to keep playing, and after the ending I was absolutely certain I never wanted to play it again.

I see. I can certainly see where that could be bad. I had forgotten about a good deal of the propaganda, and only really recalled the Boys of Silence one I showed you. Thank you for your answers.

If you could spare me one more question, can you tell me how you feel about the original Bioshock's dealings with religion, assuming you've played it? Andrew Ryan, who is modeled after Ayn Rand herself, is a very devout atheist, and talks about casting aside the shackles of religion. Yet, the anti-religion undertones were mostly shoved behind the "Parasites are evil!" business, leaving most religious references to the Splicers, who fancied singing, "Jesus loves me." I'm sure you could find some anti-religion propaganda in Rapture too, so would it have the same effect as Bioshock Infinite had on you?
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
I see. I can certainly see where that could be bad. I had forgotten about a good deal of the propaganda, and only really recalled the Boys of Silence one I showed you. Thank you for your answers.

If you could spare me one more question, can you tell me how you feel about the original Bioshock's dealings with religion, assuming you've played it? Andrew Ryan, who is modeled after Ayn Rand herself, is a very devout atheist, and talks about casting aside the shackles of religion. Yet, the anti-religion undertones were mostly shoved behind the "Parasites are evil!" business, leaving most religious references to the Splicers, who fancied singing, "Jesus loves me." I'm sure you could find some anti-religion propaganda in Rapture too, so would it have the same effect as Bioshock Infinite had on you?

Whoops, didn't notice til now that you responded back. My bad!

Um... I never played the original Bioshock. In fact the only things I really know about it are that it's supposedly a deconstruction and refutation of Objectivism as set by Ayn Rand, the "Would You Kindly" scene, something about the Adam being very similar to the Vigors of Infinite, and the Big Daddies & Little Sisters. Oh, right, and also that whole "No gods or kings, only man" bit.

But from what I can tell, the original Bioshock, while still not having anything really nice to say about religion, was far more concerned with casting the bright & burning gaze on Objectivist ideology. Even though I'm sure I'd find anti-religious propaganda besides just that entry banner if I looked hard enough, it wouldn't be shoved in my face like Infinite did and so I could much more easily set it aside, even if I'm still not all that comfortable with it.
 

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