• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Breath of the Wild Breath of the Wild, and the Promise It Breaks

Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Location
Michigan
From the first moments of gameplay, this latest iteration of our beloved franchise demonstrates one singularly important element: lethality. Everything you do has great risk, even in what is ostensibly the tutorial level. Pick a fight with some monsters when you have a stick? Good luck. Fall from too high up because you don’t have a handle on the stamina system yet? Buhbye. Wander into the cold, or plunge into icy water? Linkcicle. Misjudge a parry? You’re gonna get hurt. Even some of the early Shrines give people trouble, as I’ve seen various Youtube personalities be killed or nearly killed by everything from the first little Guardian in the Magnesis Shrine, to killing themselves through the erroneous application of stacked metal crates. (Translation: they dun bonked their heads to death.)


As you progress further in the game, almost every instance and encounter reinforces the ideals of danger and lethality that are present. The game uses its overworld to teach you “If you take your time, improve your skills, and go in prepared, you will succeed. If you don’t do this, you will die.” You figure out ways to overcome enemy threats and environmental hazards alike. You fight enemies that grow stronger and more varied as you travel. You develop tactics for approaching enemy camps, and though these strategies will vary from player to player, the point is that the challenge presented by the overworld monsters will continue to reward you for your application of the various tactics you will acquire. Surprise attacks at night, freezing enemies solid, sniping from afar, aerial insertions, or just good old melee skill. Beyond simply dealing with enemies, you learn how to deal with the land itself. You discover and develop various foods and elixirs to deal with hot and cold. You learn that thunderstorms plus metal equipment equal disaster. You acquire clothing and gear to better protect yourself. You increase your stamina so you can climb higher or swim longer, at the tradeoff of simply having more life, i.e. you elect to use other means of survival rather than brute-forcing your way through situations with sheer hitpoint values. Perhaps you’ll simply learn to use Cryonis to navigate waterways. Through these interactions, Breath of the Wild spends a lot of time negotiating its pact with the player. So surely, after all this, you’d think that the various lessons taught throughout your time in the overworld would culminate in true tests that are the game’s dungeons.


Except that’s not the case. The game spends tens of hours preparing you for a trial it will never give you. With possibly one exception, most people will have little to no trouble solving the puzzle of a Divine Beast. Again with one exception, none of the Ganonblights are the least bit challenging. What danger they do pose is mitigated by a nearly limitless supply of healing items thanks to your ability to consume raw ingredients for health (all from the safety of the inventory screen). The enemies you do face within the Divine Beasts are the most pitiful of the pitiful, being limited to floating skulls and the very weakest of the Guardians. The small Shrines that dot the landscape can be excusable as mere speedbumps. There are tons of them, most have little or no buildup and aren’t meant to significantly halt the pace of overworld exploration, and they provide only meager material rewards. They last long enough to explore a puzzle concept or give a tough little fight, and that’s it. However, Divine Beasts are meant to be significant pillars of the game, with important character interactions and story elements that culminate in accessing them and are meant to significant benchmarks of the player’s progress. To have them relegated to 20-minute asides does a disservice to the game. If I was forced to guess why this decision was implemented, I would say it was likely due to the emphasis on exploring the overworld. However, this decision robs the overworld of a greater purpose. If the dungeons had been challenging, then that treacherous overworld would have served a twofold purpose: being engaging on its own merits, and preparing the player for the truly taxing challenge posed by what should be some of the most deadly environments in the game. These places are enclosed structures, under Ganon’s direct possession and control, and pervaded with his corruption. They should be some of the most dangerous places in Hyrule, period.


Hyrule Castle stands as a testament to this. From the moment you enter the castle, you are in capital-D Danger. Malice creeps everywhere. Where there aren’t Eyes, there are minions, and where there aren’t minions, there are Guardians. The monsters you’ll find there are all quite powerful. The player is given a choice at every turn. They can elect to make this excursion easier on themselves if they want. It’s possible to clamber your way straight to the top, or to use the Zora armor to swim up the various waterfalls in order to infiltrate the keep. But these routes are not the same as Hyrule Castle simply being easy, because that level of ease is a direct choice on the part of the player, and is also a reward for the choices the player made in order to arrive at this point in the game. Conversely, the player may opt to take the path of greatest resistance, mowing through vicious baddies and discovering some of the best gear that can be found. Both options are a reward for the skills and behaviours the player has cultivated throughout the game up to this point.


These dungeons should be chock full of moments for the player to put their best and strongest survival strategies and battle tactics to good use. Even though the player will likely use these tactics time and again while traversing Hyrule, by encouraging their use in dungeons the game had the chance to provide a clear and potent reward for the player at the end. This clear reward has a way of punctuating the overall game experience with a firm and memorable moment, cementing the sense of progression and accomplishment. By failing to challenge the player, the Divine Beasts rob them of that elevated gaming experience.
 

Azure Sage

March onward forever...
Staff member
ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
That’s quite an essay. Personally, some challenge would be nice, but I found the Divine Beasts to be fun and creative regardless of their difficulty. That should be what matters most, in my opinion. The beasts and what they represent are more thematic than anything else. Some players like to be challenged at every turn, and I get that. If you can’t appreciate them because you wanted them to be more of a challenge, that’s fine I guess. But ignoring their creativity is less fine. Having control over a moving dungeon to solve puzzles, and having to actually fight them head on just to get inside, was quite a unique experience. I believe in enjoying things for what they are, and I definitely enjoyed tackling the beasts. Some things being easy doesn’t rob me of any experiences. I know how to have fun regardless of difficulty.
 

YIGAhim

Sole Survivor
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Location
Stomp
Gender
Male
Great post. I agree. BoTW didn't deliver with the climaxes of the game (the beasts and C.G).Like you said, their should always be a moment in each shrine, area, ect where your true skills are put to the test.
 

Castle

Ch!ld0fV!si0n
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Location
Crisis? What Crisis?
Gender
Pan-decepticon-transdeliberate-selfidentifying-sodiumbased-extraexistential-temporal anomaly
I've heard this point mentioned before, and it's a good one. Because you can make your run on Hyrule Castle at any point, you can be as (un)prepared as you please. It is an interesting way to choose the end game difficulty, but the problem is that the game is meant to be played and just by doing that you'll naturally be getting stronger the whole time. Play enough and eventually you can wipe the floor with Hyrule Castle and obliterate Spooky Looking With A Chance Of Calamity Ganon just by sneezing in its general direction.

A game that gives you an initial impression of difficulty and sets you up for the long road to preparedness by mopping the floor with you in its introductory moments eventually gives way to a cake walk in both the overworld and the dungeons especially. This is a common event with many a RPG. Some would say this is a feature that feeds the power fantasy and rewards players for all their hard work. Others argue it is the result of poor play balancing.

To me it doesn't serve the series because Link is always the under dog. Though his arsenal improves as the games go on his adventure always ramps up in challenge to test his courage. TLoZ has never really been about power fantasy like most RPGs. More like being an ordinary kid doing some fancy things on an extraordinary adventure, rather than being a god level super hero doing extraordinary things in a world you quickly gain total dominance over.

By the end of BotW, Zelda and the rest of Hyrule should be more worried about Link going all Dark Lord on them with the arsenal he's amassed. And that also begs the question as to why Hyrule needed all this advanced Sheikah tech to defeat Root'n Toot'n Calamity Ganon when they've got ancient arrows and armor that deflects death rays lying around all over the place.
 
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Gender
Male
A bit late to the fray, but having completed every Zelda game, and holding the series it's great reverence : I have to say: I think you are being generous.

Hyrule in BOTW is a stunning technical achievement , with solid animation and mechanics throughout : it's an ocean wide in terms of scope : and a puddle deep in terms of challenge.

Issues you highlight with the bosses permeate other aspects in the game, which fall drastically short of the quality Nintendo itself routinely delivers.

It seems absurd to criticise BOTW for a lack of diversity, so I'll attempt to explain where I felt it failed...infuriately I'll add, as you point out, there seems no reason why Nintendo dropped the ball, and why so few critics seem to address.

Theses bosses aren't just weak compared to other Zelda titles, they are also emblematic of design choices across the game.

The bosses are ridiculously easy, but worse, they are practically joy-less encounters. Partly due to the lack of character..but mostly, the mechanics are utterly threadbare. Compare to other encounters you can think of.."Phantom Ganandorf " in OOT...there's a great rythmic play, akin to tennis, necessitating, timing, accuracy..""Ghot" from MM with its pitch perfect racing mechanics, even less challenging examples from Twilight Princess."Stal Lord" springs to mind, all demand some degree of timing and accuracy, health is finite, often resulting in the narrowest of victories which ultimately results in a satisfying, earned victory.

The typical flow of a BOTW fight...shoot the eye (always the same spot)..hit...low on energy, eat food, heal, hit, weapon broke, swap weapon, hit again. Check resources ie: arrows. Hit, needlessly heal again, win.

The constant menu access makes this a fight: not against a boss, but with a hugely tedious health/weapon system.

In all honestly , I can say I beat every boss first time, with ZERO thought, no timing, just wailing down on them and healing. Fun?

Of course this can be countered with the fact that I chose to heal...really? Is purposefully having to handicap yourself in order to procure a sense of achievement been a staple of previous Zelda titles?

Can you imagine mustering any satisfaction in beating Ganon in OOT with all that's required is a pause/heal mechanic...

Unfortunately, these issues aren't limited to the bosses and undermine the entire experienced...The so called "difficulty" is simply upping The damage absorption of the Guardians and Lynels.. which merely encourages MORE tedious re-healing. Obviously you can build your ancient weapon defense up...only this is handled via the next problem: the woeful lack of challenge In the puzzles. Ok , so let's forgive the same replicated Korok puzzles....300 divided by 10... You get the idea. If anyone here can claim to have enjoyed that...

The shrines offer 5-10 interesting puzzles and 110 that I'm amazed were even considered. I'm assuming most players of BOTW are over 5 years old...but some of these puzzles are an insult. Swing the motion control backwards and forwards to putt a ball. Again, previous Zelda games had puzzles which kept me stumped for hours. There's simply nothing of that quality here:

Another example, the races: As long as you can guide an analog stick left to right..you'll win first time with 20 seconds to spare. That might have chops for a mouth breathing puppet playing Spyro...but compared to the nail biting Goron Races in MM? The second critical timing needed to secure Epona in OOT? The timed challenges rushing across the map in ALBW....I could go on forever.

Side quests. It's been mentioned in other threads: put simply, when they have zero impact on the overall game, it's hard to buy into them. If the aim is to empower the player over the course of the game, then look no further to " Majoras Mask" to see it done right.


The side quests here don't even feed into any puzzles: I'd be hitting up on every side quest in previous Zeldas when I was hopelessly stuck...hoping to find some sort of answer or hint:

Here, you are even TOLD what type of side quest it is...thus negating any sense of wonder or excitement on completion. You know..it's going to be a shrine. Some rupees. Another breakable weapon, which in itself, far from engendering experimentation, simply encourages caution, as you worthlessly stockpile them for a challenge that never happens.

The farming/grind mechanic in itself isn't problematic, it's just they actually the OP states: The challenge never arises go make it feel anything less than a chore. From Softwares' "Dark Souls" also requires the mechanic, only the admittedly cathartic process rarely feels futile, because the player is desperately looking for an edge in genuinely thrilling combat. The gains from it are permanent as opposed to stacking up on disposables for artificially "harder" fights.

And the maddeningly annoying menu mechanic continues to run like a sore through the the game...Gerudo typifies this : it's cold at night :stop pause, change clothes, want to access Gerudo town, stop pause, change again, it's hot, stop pause drink elixir...climbing.,,**** ran out of stamina boosts...stop pause..This isn't a challenge of skill, more an act of attrition on patience. It's the iron boot swapping if "The Water Temple" on f***ing steroids!!!!

Nintendo is far better than this.

For such Collosal environs, it seems strange that I was missing a cave. A dungeon. An underwater segment. A town that wasn't simply a reskinned version of the previous. The depressingly low enemy variety. Another Korok puzzle. There's a huge sense of scale, but with the same repeated formula, there's no real sense of place, which ultimately results in a poor sense of adventure.

Well I'm boring myself..it's just frustrating because Nintendo has got a grasp of this like few others in the industry, yet seems to have dropped it all in favour of being open world.

Yes, you can go anywhere, at any time...but at what cost? No escalating challenge. Half baked puzzling. Disjointed side quests.

There's much to admire with the typically charming characters and technical achievements. But by adopting the worst aspects from the open world genre, instead of looking at the more inspired developments (I'm looking at you FROM ) Completing "Breath Of The Wild" is something of a breath of relief.

Apologies in advance for the rant! :)
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Gender
Male
Majora22, if you're going to heal during boss fights whenever you're low on health, literally no enemy or boss in the game will be a challenge regardless of how hard the programmers make them, as you can stockpile a nigh unlimited amount of health-restoring food. I relied just on fairies when fighting the bosses and they proved quite challenging as a result. Much more challenging than previous games' bosses, in fact. It sounds to me like you have a problem with the game's food system (which is fair enough I guess), rather than the bosses themselves.

Side quests. It's been mentioned in other threads: put simply, when they have zero impact on the overall game, it's hard to buy into them. If the aim is to empower the player over the course of the game, then look no further to " Majoras Mask" to see it done right.

The side quests here don't even feed into any puzzles: I'd be hitting up on every side quest in previous Zeldas when I was hopelessly stuck...hoping to find some sort of answer or hint:

Here, you are even TOLD what type of side quest it is...thus negating any sense of wonder or excitement on completion. You know..it's going to be a shrine. Some rupees. Another breakable weapon, which in itself, far from engendering experimentation, simply encourages caution, as you worthlessly stockpile them for a challenge that never happens.
I don't get this complaint. Sidequests in general are supposed to be that, sidequests, not part of the main story. And the game does have quests that tie in with the story, they're just labeled as main quests, rather than side quests. It sounds to me like you just dislike the game having sidequests at all due to your personal preference, rather than because there's anything inherently wrong with them.

As for the third paragraph, other than the shrine and DLC quests, I'm pretty sure most of the side quests don't tell you what your reward will be.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 10, 2018
Gender
Male
It's true that I find the constant interruption of play due to the food system irritating. It merely compounds the irritation of changing clothes, removing metal items etc it's annoying in the main game, but in the boss fights, it all but breaks any sense of accomplishment: I questioned if artificially making the game harder on yourself creates a rewarding experience (in reality, I rarely had to heal as the Blights failed to offer challenge even on their own terms) . But Offering the player the means to make the game a walkover and devoid of challenge ( as stated in the OP ) ALSO Undermines any real incentive in the overworld. Applying this design principle to other games, and I'll refer to Nintendos ' own high standard here: Can you imagine deriving any satisfaction from previous Zelda games, if the bosses were merely a series of walkovers by a technologically, over empowered Link? Would a player purposefully avoid picking up hearts dispensed over the boss arena (hence negating any pause mechanic) in order to prolong a challenge? Sure, you have the freedom to do this, but rarely would you want to as your health is carefully structured and balanced against the difficulty of the encounter to ensure a tense, captivating, and ultimately rewarding experience. Surely the instant heal of the fairies themselves is a testament to the importance of this game flow?

That is great Nintendo game design: not passing the buck to the player to discipline themselves in order to create a more rewarding experience for themselves. Sure you can pick up fairies, but again the limited health they restore is an artificially imposed challenge.

Regarding side quests, categorising each quest removes any guesswork required by the player. Ok: you don't know if the result will be rupees, or a weapon.

Considering the potential created by the scope of the world, there is NOTHING even remotely close to the Kafei/Anju quests, Or the finely tuned racing mechanics of previous games. Many are simple fetch quests, but moreover they are typically pointless in that they don't provide anything that's ever really needed.

I'd suggest "Majoras Mask" is hugely influential to the "Dark Souls" series: Both incorporate side quests in a truly brilliant manner. Masks in MM are hard won: Tense shoot outs, second critical races nervy dungeon speed runs: Completion of all rewards the player with ..an overpowered weapon: The difference here is that you don't explicitly KNOW this until the end game: Moreover these side quests are constantly varied but mostly: FUN.
In "Dark Souls" the need is genuinely desperate, reassuring the player with the knowledge that they have capitalised on all options to succeed.

There's a world of difference between this and mundanely completing challengeless tasks to boost health.

The "main quests" you mention are similarly underwhelming : An example from OOT. Draining the well to progress: You know the drill. Learn a song from an NPC, travel time, go back to the NPC..play it again based on his dialogue...sounds easy right? This WOULD have been easy if the dialogue of the tasks at hand were explicitly labelled "COMPLETE THIS TO ADVANCE THE GAME", but it wasn't so condescending to the players intelligence. In the pre-Internet era this required a fair bit of lateral thinking...AND some experimentation: The solution wasn't laid out in blatant terms.

BOTW poses no such questions to the player. In reality you don't even need to be informed the quest is of "MAIN QUEST" status after the first boss, because the repetition is blatant : Talk to the leader. Do a fetch quest. progress.

The ingenuity of Nintendo has historically created cerebrally challenging Zelda games. BOTW requires precious few of these moments. And it's only an issue because there is no reason why it couldn't achieve this whilst maintaining a large open world.

Given the choice of a clearer direction and challenge over finding the 220th Korok with the tenth? Iteration of picking up a rock and questioning "am I enjoying this?" I'm left with little doubt. Quite simply I've hardly had to use my brain at all for the first time in the history of the series.
 

Jamie

Till the roof comes off, till the lights go out...
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Gender
trans-pan-demi-ethno-christian-math-autis-genderfluid-cheesecake
I mean, it's by FAR the hardest 3D Zelda. Ultimately, it's a Zelda game, what did you expect?
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Location
Australia
@AncientPoe You are basing your whole OP on your own gaming skill. Not everyone is as as skilled at gaming as you. Different people will find different parts of the game hard. Also the game is designed so you can make it harder by self imposed limitations.

Also an important point. Sure the game is hard. Even Nintendo mentioned this. However the difficulty is not the main aspect of the game. The exploration is. The exploration is just as polarising. Some people will not take the time to appreciate it and others will. This is an exploration focused game. It's not dark souls type puzzle/combat game.
 
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Location
Michigan
@AncientPoe You are basing your whole OP on your own gaming skill. Not everyone is as as skilled at gaming as you. Different people will find different parts of the game hard. Also the game is designed so you can make it harder by self imposed limitations.

Also an important point. Sure the game is hard. Even Nintendo mentioned this. However the difficulty is not the main aspect of the game. The exploration is. The exploration is just as polarising. Some people will not take the time to appreciate it and others will. This is an exploration focused game. It's not dark souls type puzzle/combat game.
And your point? All anyone can do is base things off their own experiences. Lots of other Zelda games have genuine challenge laced throughout. Goht takes skill. Odolwa can kill you easily if you don't pay attention. That Great Bay frog miniboss can kick the ****e out of you if he sucks you into his bubble. Iron Knuckles hand damage out like it's Halloween candy. Overworld enemies in Link's Awakening can be a genuine threat as you trek about. Original Legend of Zelda had a vastly open world, but soft gating mechanics like Lynels that could send you crying back to momma. The Water Temple. Stone Tower Temple. Literally all of Zelda II. Asking for genuine challenge in a Zelda game is not asking for something that has no precedent.

There's a difference between being able to explore freely, and being able to explore freely without consequence. Breath of the Wild's early game is amazing because some of the best bits of exploration came when I felt I was doing something I wasn't strictly supposed to be doing. My first trek up Mt. Lanyru happened because I saw a Star Piece land there and up to this point hadn't been able to make it to a single one I'd seen in time, but I was damn determined to get that one. So I wore what little protection from the cold I had and ate some food to get me the rest of the way to the needed cold resistance. But my trek took ages and soon I was deep in wintery death, fighting enemies that were way too strong for me at the time, nearly one-shotting me with a single swipe. But I pressed on exploring. I used up all my warming foods, and would have died if the circumstances of my exploration hadn't taught me that equipping a fire weapon would grant me some warmth. That was one of the most engaging moments of the game for me. But the problem is that by letting up in almost every other respect, the game wasn't able to keep up any sort of pressure. While I still enjoyed wandering around, my problem is that when I look back almost every defining moment of my gameplay comes from about the first third, and all the other pivotal moments are marked not by elation or accomplishment but by disappointment.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Location
Australia
And your point? All anyone can do is base things off their own experiences.
My point was that you are saying a game breaks it's promises based on your experiences alone and not everyone's experiences as a whole. I agree that the game didn't live up to your own personal expectations, that's fine. But saying the game broke it's promises? That's just not true.

Also there's no "you're not supposed to be doing this" once you're past the plateau. Aonuma hinself said he was pleased that people are finding new ways to do things in the game. He just set the base framework and how you use that is up to the player. It seems you like exploring when you have a purpose in mind. Like that star peice. You made up your own reason to climb up there and you did. That's exactly what Breath of the Wild is about and totally achieving it's promise of getting the player to explore the world. Why you explore certain areas of the game? That's different for each player.

Every single Zelda game takes skill to beat. Some a lot more skill than others of cause. But it's there in every game. My first Zelda game ever was Zelda 2 AoL. The game is not too hard (and I know I've played it more than most), but as a little child, the game kicked my ass hard. Not because the game was hard, jusst because it took me a while to get the skill necessary to beat it.

You say - " my problem is that when I look back almost every defining moment of my gameplay comes from about the first third, and all the other pivotal moments are marked not by elation or accomplishment but by disappointment."
That is your problem indeed. I totally agree with you and I know some people felt like that, but many others did not. A lot of people really liked the game, all or most of it.

In conclusion
Everything you said is in your opinion based on your experiences. A game does not fail any promises it makes because one person doesn't like much of the game. You can ask or read uo on how others have experienced the game. That's what reviews are. Opinionated stories of how someone experienced the game.
I stand by my above post. You are making a generalisation here, saying a game breaks it's promise based on one person's opinion - your own. Does it even matter what other people think? If the game disappointed you, it's obviously failed it's expectations right? All the millions of others who really loved the game? Do they even matter? If obviously is a broken promise to all them as well because it disappoinred you.

Seriously - your opinions are legitimate and fine. Everyone has different opinions on the game. I just think the broad generalisation you made about the game is wrong. I don't even say that about Wind Waker and I hate that game.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom