Breath of the Wild Boss Fights - What Are You Hoping For?

[Cfrock]

Reading a post by Ventus recently has made me think about what exactly is a boss fight? What is their purpose, their function? I don't think everyone has the same answer to that queston but home console Zelda's have been feeding us one interpretation for years. If you look at Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword what you find is that the boss fights are basically just giant enemies. Some of these games are better examples of it than others but the majority of the boss fights in all of them are just really big enemies that are defeated by liberal use of whatever item was found in that dungeon.

Is that what a boss is? A stage for us to see a cool use of the dungeon item?

See, in my mind, a boss fight is a test. It's a test of your skill and understanding of the game. The best boss fights tend to be ones which really challenge you and make you figure out how to defeat what is put before you. They make you draw on your skills rather than just basically telling you what to do, in my opinion.

Ghirahim managed to test our skill with the sword and he wasn't a 40 foot giant. Most of the bosses in the 2D games aren't titans either. So the point of this thread is what do you believe a boss should be and do you want to see ZeldaU feature huge bosses on an epic scale (like Twilight Princess) or do you think bosses should a real test of the skills you have learnt throughout the game? Or do you want something totally different?

 

[Ventus]

I believe bosses are supposed to be a test of your skills. That doesn't necessarily mean a test of your skill with any one specific item, but a test of your general skill. Bosses aren't bloated enemies which are to be taken down with that one-trick pony we call the "dungeon item", at least not in my mind. Rather, they're enemies that can be taken down with a dungeon item, alongside other means if one so chooses to. Boss enemies should be ruthless, very aggressive and fast at that. If they aren't going to be fast enemies, the least Nintendo could do is give them a huge damage multiplier; we should learn at that point that getting hit is a bad thing, and a bad thing we should look to prevent.

All that being said, what I hope for ZeldaU bosses to be is a mixed bag. I'd love for some particularly huge bosses (think of some of the fights in i\Shadow of the Colossus) that pack a punch, and fairly small bosses that are fast and efficient. Still, they should all be a test of your skills up until that point (Steady difficulty), or a teaser for what's to come later in the game (huge difficulty curve). And please, do not require them to be defeated by any one item; allow us to use multiple methods! Enemies in real life are susceptible to multiple types of damage, why shouldn't the enemies in Zelda be as well?

O-oh! I'd also love for superbosses to finally reach the Zelda series. They should become series staple at this point; just a very hard challenge for veteran players, in my opinion. Think of hard hitting, incredibly fast enemies like the ones featured in JRPGs:
Final Fantasy XII Omega Mark XII Dead! - YouTube (FFXII Omega Mark XII)
Final Fantasy XII Final Hunt Yiazmat (part 1/6) - YouTube (FFXII Yiazmat)
SO3 - 4D Fayt SSCC No hurt, Ethereal Queen, Part 1 - YouTube (SO3 Ethereal Queen)
[TAS] (Star Ocean Till the End of Time Freya)
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep Final Mix: No Heart Boss Battle - YouTube (Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep No Heart)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DysZPFXmBhM (Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix+ Terra)

 

[A Link In Time]

Many modern boss fights suffer because they're predictable endeavors fought after completing a certain tasks. In Zelda, with few exceptions, this means braving a dungeon. While there's much to be desired from the quality front, King Bulblin and Levias from Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, respectively, were welcome departures from series tradition. While I vehemently oppose the idea of pawn villains, it's be interesting to see the primary antagonist employ henchmen or generals to serve as overworld checkpoint. In tandem with deeper, more involved sidequests this would prompt Nintendo to create fewer albeit more creative dungeons as in Majora's Mask.

I know I'll receive a lot of hate for this but quite frankly bosses are dated concepts. They break the fluidity of gaming experiences. If you observe the criminals of the real world, there is rarely a clear leader. Groups like those are incessantly plagued by factionalism and power struggles. One of the major problems confronting the globe is terrorism. Terrorism thrives in ambiguity prompting people to fear everyone around them. Is the stranger smiling at you or a friend or someone who desires to gain valuable information from you and then stab you in the back? Unfortunately, I can't offer any videogame examples here because no title comes to mind which has tinkered with the concept.

 

[JuicieJ]

---> Zelda Bosses: Downsizing the Enemy <---

I know I'll receive a lot of hate for this but quite frankly bosses are dated concepts. They break the fluidity of gaming experiences.

I have to disagree, here. Bosses are transitional points in gaming, specifically within dungeons. The whole point of their existence is to segue into the next part of the game with a difficulty spike of awesomeness. Seriously, imagine going through a dungeon in Zelda without a boss. What would be the point? What would all your efforts of solving puzzles and finding keys be worth? Nothing. There'd have been no point other than just having done these things. Getting to the boss is the goal of the dungeon. It's the final obstacle in the way of Link and whatever he's searching for in said dungeon. I guess you could have some other epic scenario replace the bosses, but that would still act as a transitional point.

Not all games need bosses, of course, but they work great in the Action/Adventure genre.

 

[Mellow Ezlo]

the boss fights are basically just giant enemies. Some of these games are better examples of it than others but the majority of the boss fights in all of them are just really big enemies that are defeated by liberal use of whatever item was found in that dungeon.

Although I don't really care how big a boss is, I have to agree with you. Some big monsters are cool, but not if it's a constant recurrence. I was hoping, when I first saw Ghirahim, that SS's bosses would just be normal foes. But no, they had to make practically every other boss in the game nothing but a huge monster. Though SS did attempt to stray away from the use of the dungeon item with Ghirahim, you still had to use it in every other dungeon boss fight.

What I'd really like to see from Zelda U is something like what we had in the early days. A boss that was just like a normal enemy, just a bit tougher. Most of them were able to be fought again as regular enemies, and a lot of them had multiple ways to be defeated. The bosses in MM are some of my favourites because, although they were just huge monsters, there were at least 2 ways to defeat each of them. In Zelda U, I want to see bosses that are well designed, well thought out, and a good challenge. There should be more than one way to kill them, possibly with items other than just the dungeon item. I'd also love to see more overworld bosses. Some games (like TP, PH, and SS) had overworld bosses, but they were usually fairly easy, and some were quite repetitive (King Bulblin and The Imprisoned).

Here's a quick checklist of some of the traits I think Zelda U's bosses should have:
-Good design
-Fair difficulty (harder than an enemy, but easier than the final boss)
-More humanoid bosses, like Ghirahim
-More overworld bosses
-Multiple killing methods
-More damaging attacks (TP, I'm looking at you...)

 

[JuicieJ]

Though SS did attempt to stray away from the use of the dungeon item with Ghirahim, you still had to use it in every other dungeon boss fight.

Yeah, but with the exception of Tentalus (who still had the thing with cutting his tentacles and tentacle hair to spice up the standard modern Zelda boss style), these bosses only had the item used as part of the fight. The fight wasn't centered around them.

Scaldera

Sure, you had to throw a bomb to make him roll down the slope -- the first time such a thing was used for a boss fight in Zelda -- as well as in his mouth to stun him, but there was much more to it than that. The beef of the first phase came from having to dash up a giant slope in order to get far enough away so you could send him rolling down the slope and slashing his eye according to how it was positioned. If you didn't get the bomb to him, you had to actively dodge his fireballs. Then in the second phase, you had to dodge his roll attack, throw a bomb in his mouth, and attack his now constantly-moving eye according to how it was positioned. (Not to mention you could only hold up to 10 bombs at a time at this point.) It was a frantically-paced fight that I see too many people label as a King Dodongo rip-off (not saying that you are, just saying too many people make that misguided assessment.)

Moldarach

The Gust Bellows doesn't even come into use until the second phase of the fight, and when it does, it has nothing to do whatsoever with harming the boss. All its used for is to get him out from underneath the sand. That's great use of an item in a boss fight, and it's how items like the Gust Bellows SHOULD be used in a boss fight. If it were The Wind Waker or Twilight Princess, we probably would have fought some giant SS Armos-like thing where it was central to the core fight.

Koloktos

The first phase to this fight is kind of similar to the generic "use item on the boss to stun it, hack and slash away, repeat" style seen in the GameCube games, but not quite. The Whip is never used to incapacitate Koloktos. It's used to take out his arms, two of which are guarding his weak point. Even when you do that, though, he can still attack with his two remaining arms, so he's not exactly stunned. Of course, the second phase is nothing like this. You still take out his arms with the Whip, but you have to stay away from him while he's slashing like crazy (and sometimes take out some watered-down Cursed Bokoblins) AND use one of his own weapons to take out his legs and proceed to wail away at him with it. The core fight was more akin to Ocarina of Time's boss style, where the item was important, but it wasn't the end-all means. There was a lot more to it than that.

Again, Skyward Sword may have used the items in its non-sword battle dungeon boss fights, but 3 out 4 of the ones that did didn't center around the item. They just had to have a line of defense taken out with them.

I definitely agree with your checklist, though. :yes:

 

[Awesome]

I just don't want the bosses of the new Zelda game to be so easy to stun. What I mean by this is that a vast majority of bosses you stun by either shooting it in the eye, tripping it, throwing a bomb in it's mouth, etc.....then for about 5 seconds the boss just sits there like a dumb *** as you whack away at it. Not only does it usually require only one attack to stun the boss, but then you are given free to unleash hell on them. I don't think bosses should ever be stunned personally.

The boss shouldn't feel inferior to Link.....I mean they're hugeass colossal things usually. They shouldn't be knocked back, stunned, passive, whatever. They should be on the hunt for Link instead of Link being on the hunt for them. Link should actually have to dodge more than he attacks. Those are good bosses in my opinion...ones that actually feel like they're trying to kill you instead of waiting for you to attack. That's just my opinion though.

 

[A Link In Time]

---> Zelda Bosses: Downsizing the Enemy <---



I have to disagree, here. Bosses are transitional points in gaming, specifically within dungeons. The whole point of their existence is to segue into the next part of the game with a difficulty spike of awesomeness. Seriously, imagine going through a dungeon in Zelda without a boss. What would be the point? What would all your efforts of solving puzzles and finding keys be worth? Nothing. There'd have been no point other than just having done these things. Getting to the boss is the goal of the dungeon. It's the final obstacle in the way of Link and whatever he's searching for in said dungeon. I guess you could have some other epic scenario replace the bosses, but that would still act as a transitional point.

Not all games need bosses, of course, but they work great in the Action/Adventure genre.

I respect your opinion and I previously thought this way but there are compelling alternatives that have been presented even with the Zelda series itself.

Take the escape sequence for example. I loved this aspect of Ocarina of Time's final boss battle which hasn't been emulated before or since. Imagine a dungeon with sacred treasure at the end which triggers a chain reaction of booby traps causing part of the dungeon to topple. It would be high time for Nintendo to bring back some stat improving arsenal such as the Pegasus Boots. This would occur in some side shaft of course so as not to hamper players from returning and not being able to gather collectibles.

Reading TSter the Great's post desiring bosses to resemble enemies but tougher conjures an idea of a large mass of enemies to combat at dungeon's end. This would work best in an open top dungeon with plenty of room to evade foes and use the environment to your advantage. Skyward Sword's horde battle was a refreshing and unconventional take on bosses which Nintendo should certainly flesh out in the future with more varied and intelligent legions.

 

[Spirit]

I have to go into Metroid territory to answer this because with the exception of Other M, the Metroid series has delivered to me what i think boss battles should be. Ridley has gotten bigger over time but he was always vicious and the battles were always tight, his size doesn't matter it is his ferocity that does. However, enemies like Kraid are huge buggers that also have a mean streak, its just that he is bigger and the size has a mental effect on you, Mother Brain wasn't too mobile in any of her forms but she was still formidable...

What i think boss fights are, are like what Cfrock thinks they are, tests of skill, not to show off a fancy weapon or item but to push your skill, to prove to the game that you can prgress and deserve that ending. In Zelda i have never dreaded a boss since WW, theyre a pushover and just something to do at the end of a dungeon, they dont fill me with dread and really feel as if they waste my time by being there sometimes... I'd like Zelda bosses to be harder, more focused on pushing your gaming reflexes and skill with the engine itself rather than popping up to show you what your new toy can do despite the fact you've been using it for half the dungeon already...

Bosses are something to dread in a good way, something to feel intimidated by and Zelda doesnt have that, WiiU needs it if the HD nasties arent going to be thought of as a joke.

 

[Zorth]

To me, a boss is basically just something testing your skills. So it doesn't have to be a huge beast, afaik it could be a long chain of puzzles that only requires one weapon; your brain. So I'd like for Nintendo to first and foremost add some diversity to the bosses, Not just the regular over sized monster. Maybe multiple enemies at once like in OoT (Twinrova) and MM (Twinmold), a puzzle boss that doesn't harm you and then we could of course have some over sized monsters that beat the crap out of me. Nintendo's second job would be to add some challenge to the bosses, They are after all testing our skills. Doesn't matter if the boss just hits harder, is next to invincible or compels you to multitask by spawning minions upon you or something. (preferably all at once xD)

Then who's to say bosses should only be limited to dungeons?
Ironically enough the hardest bosses for me in TP were the ones I faced outside of the dungeons, The Twilit Bloat and King Bulbin, they actually made me think for a second. :bleh:
So why not have more of these fun little fights in the overworld, the same concept should apply here as in dungeons; diversity and challenge.

 

[Scoby]

big monsters that are not stupid, stupid = stunned for 10 years while Link can slash wit his sword all the time.

 

[CynicalSquid]

I'm hoping there isn't anymore "Look at the giant thing on the boss that's obviously it's week point! Quick hit it with the dungeon item" crap.

 

[Ventus]

Oh snap, I read Zorth's post and completely forgot about having multiple enemies serve as one boss. Remember the Cave of Ordeals in Twilight Princess, how the last floor was 3x Darknuts or 4x on subsequent runs? Well imagine facing four Ghirahims at once in Skyward Sword, two Ganons in Ocarina of Time 3D, et cetera! A boss need not be singular (except for the sake of grammar ;p ), and in fact they could be made more compelling by having multiple enemies serve as one boss under these conditions:

-Hard hitting or fast
-Same health as a singular boss would (meaning, no 'weaker' clones)
-No *TAKE ME DOWN BECAUSE I'M THE REAL THING* cues like Beth the Poe Sister had; every image you see would be tangible and WILL harm you, at the same time is capable of being harmed

Yes, ZeldaU could definitely make use of multiple boss enemies to serve as one boss. I am confident in Nintendo's ability to deliver such a trial. :yes:

 

[majoralink]

I would love to see as many bosses as possible in the next game. Overworld bosses, dungeon bosses, anything, anywhere. The fights should be memorable. Not just something you can do in a minute. There should be bosses that are so hard, and so tricky, that you are going to want to look up their weak point, or how to beat them. Sort of like the fight with Ganon in Alttp, you don't know you're supposed to hit him with a silver arrow while he's stunned until you fall of the stage. Or in AoL, you don't know that you have to use the thunder spell to make the Thunderbird vulnerable!

As for the appearance of the boss, I don't expect it to be big and badass like Fyrus from TP. It could be somthing small. An interesting boss would be something lizard sized, that you would just have to catch and bring somewhere to use it in the quest-so you spare its life. Or maybe it could be a huge chase battle, where either the boss chases you, or you chase the boss. Another cool thing would be to be on the boss, and you have to fight off enemies and eventually attack it- like the Gyorg Pair in MC.

Last but not least, my opinion on reusing bosses. I liked fighting King Bublin a gillion times in TP, but I didn't like fighting Girahim three times in SS. The reason why I liked one and not the other is because one was an overworld boss and the other wasn't. It's fine in my opinion to reuse bosses as long as they don't appear at the end of the dungeon, taking up the space of the precious dungeon boss. You see, I love bosses in Zelda. I love them so much. That is why I hate to waste the possibility of testing a new dungeon item on a boss that has already been vanquished.

 

[JuicieJ]

I respect your opinion and I previously thought this way but there are compelling alternatives that have been presented even with the Zelda series itself.

Take the escape sequence for example. I loved this aspect of Ocarina of Time's final boss battle which hasn't been emulated before or since. Imagine a dungeon with sacred treasure at the end which triggers a chain reaction of booby traps causing part of the dungeon to topple. It would be high time for Nintendo to bring back some stat improving arsenal such as the Pegasus Boots. This would occur in some side shaft of course so as not to hamper players from returning and not being able to gather collectibles.

Reading TSter the Great's post desiring bosses to resemble enemies but tougher conjures an idea of a large mass of enemies to combat at dungeon's end. This would work best in an open top dungeon with plenty of room to evade foes and use the environment to your advantage. Skyward Sword's horde battle was a refreshing and unconventional take on bosses which Nintendo should certainly flesh out in the future with more varied and intelligent legions.

"I guess you could have some other epic scenario replace the bosses, but that would still act as a transitional point."

Even with that, though, would you really want an escape sequence every time? That'd become rather monotonous after the first few times. Different creatures with different tactics allow diversity. Nintendo should definitely experiment with different kinds of bosses, like you said, but Skyward Sword in general was already a pretty big step in that direction. Ghirahim, Scaldera, Moldarach, the Imprisoned, Levias, and the Horde Battle were all very different for what one would think about when discussing a Zelda boss. Again, more experimentation should be utilized, but you seem to be missing most of the improvements SS made in this regard.