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A Link Between Worlds Aonuma Has Run Out of Ideas

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That's one thing I liked about OoT, MM, TP, and SS. Although most hated Navi and the other companions, I loved them. I believe that without them, their respective games just wouldn't be what they are.

They were good characters and the earlier companions were actually rather insightful, but with Fi especially, you couldn't take a step in a new area without her popping up with some obvious advice.

Like I said, ALBW is focused on improving the gameplay aspect of the franchise. A conservative story isn't necessarily a bad one. The game is still improving on previous top-down installments by offering animated cutscenes.
 
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That's one thing I liked about OoT, MM, TP, and SS. Although most hated Navi and the other companions, I loved them. I believe that without them, their respective games just wouldn't be what they are.

I'm not one to insert myself in the middle of a debate others are having, but I kind of have to question this remark, along with the one above that "Zelda fans have always cared about story".

Firstly, it's almost universally agreed upon that the likes of Navi, King of Red Lions, Midna, and Fi make the 3D games ridiculously easy (I omit Tatl, as I believe MM is well designed enough to offer a very good challenge, and I feel that her advice giving was toned down compared to Navi in OoT). 3D Zelda is easy enough as it is, with rather obvious puzzles that are just made more mind-numbingly easy by the fact that you can press a button whenever you like to gain advice for it. Actually, I believe this is a recent trend - only in TP and SS can you summon your companion at any time to get advice on the situation, at least from what I remember. The lack of the characters themselves isn't necessary, but I believe it would be very difficult to argue that the advice they give actually adds to the experience. If anything, it detracts from it quite a bit by treating the player like a child with some puzzles (Don't get me started on Fi; she embodies what a companion SHOULD NOT be to me, and I hope this isn't a telling of what's to come in future games).

So that kind of ties into story.... I think you're playing the wrong series if you're looking for a riveting and epic tale of huge proportions. Zelda has never been A-grade material in the story department, no matter how you slice it. 3D Zelda is quite predictable, with all of the games following the three area, plot twist, more areas formula. Characters that are actually relevant and continually contribute to the overarching plot never exceed about 5. And, compared to other video game series.... Zelda story just isn't all that amazing. Sure, it's been making strides to improve itself lately (SS), but it's still nowhere close to what other, story-driven games have to offer. This isn't a bad thing at all, as Zelda has proved that it doesn't want to break the barrier into a cinematic experience, and it's content with the Nintendo method of game play first. But it's just VERY HARD to say that Zelda fans have always placed a large emphasis on plot. Link in Time made a good point about that being relative in the first place - LoZ, AoL, LA, ALttP, and even OoT to a large degree were just the "Ganon gets the princess" plot, with nothing truly deeper. There's many other games as well, mostly the handheld ones, that are the same way as well. So a good chunk on the series doesn't have a "good" plot to begin with.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like a troll thread. Sorry about that. Disregard all of this if you'd like.
 
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Doc

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A few things wrong with this post here....first of all, Zelda fans have ALWAYS cared about storyline and plot; you're just not a true Zelda fan. The storyline is what makes the game, it created the emotions you feel while you play, it helps you get a better understanding of what Link goes through. Zelda is all about good storylines - but this is not one of them.
And on your argument about Princess Ruto: She is MUCH different than Hilda. Hilda is basically an exact copy of Zelda, but for Lorule. I mean come on, both names (Zelda and Hilda) came from the Germanic root "hild" which means "battle". This proves that she is meant to be a copy/doppelganger of Zelda.
And also, about your unoriginal names for temples and whatnot; that's also a lot different. Names like "Forest Temple" and "Death Mountain" are merely the names of places, dungeons, and temples; not the entire main overworld. And the same goes for the Dark/Light worlds, they are just additions to Hyrule, giving more substance to the game; but "Lorule" is an entirely different overworld, completely separate from Hyrule (but publicly made out to be an opposite of Hyrule), which I definitely do not like at all.
The two games "Ocarina of Time" and "Majora's Mask" were the very first games I ever played, and I loved them. This is going to sound hypocritical, but they set the par for what I expect of Zelda games: Hyrule, Ganon, Zelda, and The Triforce; but each game having a different storyline to accommodate for different generations. And although Majora's Mask had none of that, I still loved it; and I would love if they would make a second one based in Termina. So I guess you could say the other things I find "necessary" for a Zelda game would be: Termina, Majora/another protagonist, Masks, and The Happy Mask Salesman. This is why I don't care for games like "Wind Waker", "Spirit Tracks", etc.



Like I said up there; The Dark World is much different from "Lorule"



I would rather them just stick with the basic elements of Zelda: Hyrule, Ganon, Zelda, and The Triforce.



Midna was NOT another Princess...Midna was pretty much another companion; just like Fi, Navi, and Tatl. Midna is merely a companion - so therefore, your argument is invalid.



Death Mountain is the name of a place, not the entire main overworld made to sound similar, yet different to Hyrule. And I'm not saying the whole game is unoriginal, although, the "painting" that Link turns into looks a lot like a hieroglyph. And if I remember correctly, in many Zelda games in the Japanese versions, some of the Hylian text is very similar to, or exactly replicating ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs.


(I don't mean to quote the entire post, my laptop is down and breaking down the quotes would become a hassle in my iPod)

To start, it doesn't seem very fair to base your belief in the Zelda formula on two games. Each game is different, making it highly unfair to make Zelda or Ganon necessary for a Zelda title. We have seen several games where they have proven to be unnecessary. You then continue that a Zelda game can also, in some cases I assume, need masks. According to this, the only stories you are truly after are ones that are rehashed versions of the old titles or a Majoras Mask sequel. My first game was wind waker, followed by twilight princess. Yet, I am not holding every game to the requirements of needing the great sea or the twilight realm.

And the dark world and light world are not different from lorule or hyrule. The light world IS essentially hyrule in alttp and I imagine lorule will be similar and assume the dark worlds role. Both pairs were mirror images, making your point about the light world and dark world being different false. Either the light and dark world is a terrible idea that you hate, or they both work fine.

At another point, of which you are discrediting evidence against your complaints of Hilda by claiming that Midna doesn't count is ridiculous. Midna WAS a princess...a princess of another world, much like Hilda is. Writing her off because she was a companion makes very little sense.
 

XskywardX

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(I don't mean to quote the entire post, my laptop is down and breaking down the quotes would become a hassle in my iPod)

To start, it doesn't seem very fair to base your belief in the Zelda formula on two games. Each game is different, making it highly unfair to make Zelda or Ganon necessary for a Zelda title. We have seen several games where they have proven to be unnecessary. You then continue that a Zelda game can also, in some cases I assume, need masks. According to this, the only stories you are truly after are ones that are rehashed versions of the old titles or a Majoras Mask sequel. My first game was wind waker, followed by twilight princess. Yet, I am not holding every game to the requirements of needing the great sea or the twilight realm.

And the dark world and light world are not different from lorule or hyrule. The light world IS essentially hyrule in alttp and I imagine lorule will be similar and assume the dark worlds role. Both pairs were mirror images, making your point about the light world and dark world being different false. Either the light and dark world is a terrible idea that you hate, or they both work fine.

At another point, of which you are discrediting evidence against your complaints of Hilda by claiming that Midna doesn't count is ridiculous. Midna WAS a princess...a princess of another world, much like Hilda is. Writing her off because she was a companion makes very little sense.

I said in my post that it may sound very hypocritical of me to base what I expect of a Zelda game off of just two games; but that's just how it is.

And about the dark/light world and Lorule/Hyrule - They are totally different from eachother. The dark/light worlds are based in the same game, not each version of the overworld used separately for an entirely new game. There was no game based in the Dark world...

Also, a thing to note about your argument about Midna - I know that Midna was indeed a Princess, but she wasn't just a complete rip-off of Zelda; nor was she heavily made out to be a Princess. Midna was looked at as a companion, not a Princess. And if you look it up, Zelda and Hilda come from the Germanic root "hild"; further proving that they are basically the same yet different: Doppelgangers.
 
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I don't feel like reading this whole thread, so all I have to go on is your opening post, XskywardX. If there's some other crucial points I've missed that you feel affect my reply here then you can feel free to quote them at me. With that in mind...

Near as I can tell your only real argument is that Lorule is a stupid name, and that it's dumb to do a game "about opposites of what already exists". All you're really doing is homing in on one aspect of the game instead of its numerous features and then also placing near omni-importance on it, saying it ruins the entire experience. I don't get that.

Crying out about the name "Lorule" strikes me as deeply odd coming from someone who plays Zelda games. It's a double-standard unless you've taken up issue with the numerous other silly ripoffy names throughout the series. All it is is a funny play on words; a silly name is not a reason to decry the entire game it appears in; that's not reasonable in any way I can acknowledge.

As for this comment about "opposites", I'm really just confused as to what you're referring to. Do you mean the overworld layout heavily borrowed from A Link to the Past? Or do you mean the very idea of an alternate version of Hyrule; the concept, the premise? If it's the former, then yeah, they recycled some content but whether that bogs down the game or not depends on what they did in that space and if they put interesting new stuff there -- which it appears they have, especially in the form of the brand-new dungeons. If it's just the concept though... again I can't see where you're coming from at all. The only Zelda game to have impressive storytelling -- I agree with Ver-go about stories in Zelda not usually being all that much to write home about -- was Majora's Mask, and it absolutely rocked the concept of an alternate universe or mirror world that contained parallels of all the people of Hyrule. It's not a bad concept, and A Link Between Worlds is just taking its own spin on it.

Like I said feel free to clarify or quote any arguments of yours that I might have missed, but unless there's something else I really don't get what the big deal is or why you're so upset.
 

XskywardX

Shadow Instruments
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I don't feel like reading this whole thread, so all I have to go on is your opening post, XskywardX. If there's some other crucial points I've missed that you feel affect my reply here then you can feel free to quote them at me. With that in mind...

I updated the main topic, so you don't have to search throughout the thread to find everything I've posted.
 
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Many of you are saying that the name is obviously representing the opposite of Hyrule and whatnot, I know this - This is why I don't like it. The name is unoriginal, and I wouldn't be suprised if Aonuma just went on the internet, found a bunch of crappy fanfics, and put them together trying to make something good out of them - Just because he's too damn lazy to think of anything himself. It's not that I don't like this game because the name is different from Hyrule (Majora's Mask is one of my favorite Zelda games), more because it's the almost the same as Hyrule. I don't believe that Miyamoto ever intended for there to be an opposite version of Hyrule, especially not one with such an unoriginal name.

And on your argument about Princess Ruto: She is MUCH different than Hilda. Hilda is basically an exact copy of Zelda, but for Lorule. I mean come on, both names (Zelda and Hilda) came from the Germanic root "hild" which means "battle". This proves that she is meant to be a copy/doppelganger of Zelda.
Your arguments about the name are bad. There are virtually no "original" names except ones people blatantly make up; even in the real world. "Portland" is literally a port land, "America" is just a girl's name whereas the "United States of America" is as literal as things can possibly get", "Jackson" literally means "son of Jack" like almost any name ending in -son means, and most other names are literal worlds in other languages -- or derived from them -- and retain their meanings. So Lorule has a literally descriptive name; who cares? It is not unrealistic, it is not unoriginal any more than every other name in existence. It's stated to be a kingdom that used to be like Hyrule, so a similar name makes sense. Your Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask have less original names, like for example Sheik.

And whether or not Miyamoto ever intended it to exist in the first place is utterly irrelevant; new lore is established on the fly, and it's not really Miyamoto's job to do that anymore.

Of course Hilda is meant to be a doppelganger of Zelda; that much is obvious. But how is that bad? Every character in Majora's Mask -- a game we both love -- is exactly the same as Hilda. There are also huge end-game revelations about Lorule that you're very unaware of here:

Hilda is the villain, for example.


Another reason why I don't like ALBW - this is NOT "The Legend of Hilda: ..." This is "The Legend of Zelda: ..." They can't just go making up some new princess and throwing her into a story line without the main well-known overworld and expect everyone to except it. This is quite honestly one of the worst plots I have ever seen from the Zelda franchise.

Also, a thing to note about your argument about Midna - I know that Midna was indeed a Princess, but she wasn't just a complete rip-off of Zelda; nor was she heavily made out to be a Princess. Midna was looked at as a companion, not a Princess. And if you look it up, Zelda and Hilda come from the Germanic root "hild"; further proving that they are basically the same yet different: Doppelgangers.
See the spoiler I posted above for a world-shattering revelation on this note. :P Aside from that though, your stance here is a complete double-standard and it places a very bizarre importance on elements which are not important. Zelda has outright not appeared in some games or appeared as little more than a brief cameo -- such as in Majora's Mask -- and in other games there are other players in the story besides her. As others have pointed out, Midna is a princess, and she's not the only example of that. You can try to separate her somehow because she's a companion, but then you're just assigning bizarre and arbitrary game roles, like the princess and companion must be separate and cannot do this or that. It's strange too because, assuming you're assigning a strict role to Zelda based on Ocarina of Time, then you still have no reason to be upset about A Link Between Worlds because Zelda is still in the game and you still have to save her, just like Ocarina of Time and every other Zelda game. And this game HAS the main overworld of Hyrule so I don't understand what your argument is at all; it's MORE the well-known one in this game since it's ALttP's overworld whereas every other game redesigns the overworld.

If you're not mad about Midna then you have no decent argument for being mad about Hilda, because they're both characters that exist alongside Zelda while sharing the main storyline with her. Your argument about her being bad because she's "exactly like Zelda" seems intentionally ignorant of the fact that the only reason she is, is because this game is telling a story about a mirror world that has familiar characters in differing roles and with differing natures. Along with this, your claim about "it being one of the worst plots" is silly because you've made it clear you have no idea what the actual plot of the game is. Again, spoilers:

Hilda is Lorule's Zelda, Ravio is Lorule's Link, and Yuga is Lorule's Ganon. All three of them take on new and ironic roles in comparison to their Hyrulian counterparts. Ravio seems to have failed as a hero and is trying to help Link, Hilda is the villain, and Yuga serves her.


The next reason why I dislike the plot of ALBW is the UPSIDE-DOWN TRIFORCE. On everything I've seen in artwork for this game, the effing Triforce is upside-down. This is just ********. In my opinion, (this may sound ridiculous and that I may be too obsessed with Zelda - I am not, I just have strong feelings towards the franchise, as the first video game I ever played was OoT when I was just 3 years old) turning the Triforce upside-down is almost like turning the cross upside-down. Now again, I reiterate the fact that no, I am not obsessed, this is just my opinion. I feel as though that turning the Triforce upside-down would represent Ganon in Hyrule.
:facepalm: The primary reason for the upside-down Triforce in the ads is because it's representative of Lorule, hence why it's next to the normal Triforce all the time? Hyrule/Lorule. It's not some blaspheme against the series; it just went over your head.


A few things wrong with this post here....first of all, Zelda fans have ALWAYS cared about storyline and plot; you're just not a true Zelda fan. The storyline is what makes the game, it created the emotions you feel while you play, it helps you get a better understanding of what Link goes through. Zelda is all about good storylines - but this is not one of them.
Again you clearly know nothing about A Link Between Worlds' storyline, but aside from that I'm just going to default to what Ver-go has said because he's not wrong; Majora's Mask is the only Zelda game with a good story. Some fans pretend the others have good plots, but they don't; they're always extraordinarily simplistic.


And also, about your unoriginal names for temples and whatnot; that's also a lot different. Names like "Forest Temple" and "Death Mountain" are merely the names of places, dungeons, and temples; not the entire main overworld. And the same goes for the Dark/Light worlds, they are just additions to Hyrule, giving more substance to the game; but "Lorule" is an entirely different overworld, completely separate from Hyrule (but publicly made out to be an opposite of Hyrule), which I definitely do not like at all.
The two games "Ocarina of Time" and "Majora's Mask" were the very first games I ever played, and I loved them. This is going to sound hypocritical, but they set the par for what I expect of Zelda games: Hyrule, Ganon, Zelda, and The Triforce; but each game having a different storyline to accommodate for different generations. And although Majora's Mask had none of that, I still loved it; and I would love if they would make a second one based in Termina. So I guess you could say the other things I find "necessary" for a Zelda game would be: Termina, Majora/another protagonist, Masks, and The Happy Mask Salesman. This is why I don't care for games like "Wind Waker", "Spirit Tracks", etc.
The "entire main overworld" is nothing more than another place as far as names are concerned; nations and continents aren't named any differently than other places, and I've already established that most of them are extremely direct and literal names, or are just named after the discoverer or someone he knew. They are not different than Lorule. Also I really don't grasp whatever distinction you're trying to draw between the Dark World and Lorule; they are virtually identical. And also, "opposite" was never used as a descriptor of Lorule.

It's fine for you to want to see more of the key elements from the two Zelda games to introduce you to the series, but it is not fine to extend that very personal desire into an argument against games that fail to do that; everything you listed out of Majora's Mask didn't exist prior to its release, and even the versions of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf shown in Ocarina of Time were new -- especially Zelda and Ganondorf. Your personal favorite version of key elements of a Zelda game is not some concrete factual requirement for the series, and you can't use it as an argument against games that fail to include them when both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask also failed to include elements from previous games; every new game establishes some new things. You might not like it, and that's completely fine. You're entitled to like whatever game you want, for whatever reason. But it's completely invalid in any discussion about what's wrong with another game, because it's entirely personal.


I said in my post that it may sound very hypocritical of me to base what I expect of a Zelda game off of just two games; but that's just how it is.

And about the dark/light world and Lorule/Hyrule - They are totally different from eachother. The dark/light worlds are based in the same game, not each version of the overworld used separately for an entirely new game. There was no game based in the Dark world...
Yes, you did, but that does not mean people aren't going to mention it anyway because it is a huge problem in your argument.

Again your statements trying to distinguish the Dark World from Lorule make zero sense; in both games they are part of the entire overworld space but are separated from Hyrule by portals, and in both games they are other realms that aren't quite Hyrule but have huge similarities. And beyond that both the Dark World and Lorule are nearly identical to each other. There WAS a game based in the Dark World... it's called A Link to the Past; over half of the game was spent in it. It wasn't ALL spent in the Dark World, but neither is A Link Between Worlds; the ratio of Light World to Dark World and Hyrule to Lorule is almost exactly the same. What are you even talking about?
 
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XskywardX

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Why does every video game have a sky? That's extremely overused, let alone original.

It's not that they are reusing something, maybe you should read the entire thread, not just parts of it. If you did read the entire thread, you would have seen that I said: It's not they are using something different from Hyrule, or that it's different or the same, but more because they tired to come up with something new, but failed to. In my opinion, it's unoriginal and just sounds ********.
 

JuicieJ

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After having completed the game, I can easily say this is one of the most creative and invigorating games the franchise has to offer. Aonuma has NAILED the classic Zelda formula with A Link Between Worlds while simultaneously adding in fresh and innovative mechanics to make the experience the best of both worlds. I now have higher hopes for Zelda Wii U than ever before.
 
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Skyward, I see you're only 14 so I'm going to ignore some the immaturity in your statements but as you've stated your opinion I will state mine. To disrespect Aonuma is to disrespect Miyamoto. Do you think Miyamoto would just hand his child over to someone he doesn't trust to do the right thing with it? pardon my french but HELL NO!! Miyamoto built LoZ into one of the most influential video game series of all time and believes Aonuma is more than capable to continue that legacy. He still watches over the development process it's not like he's forsaken Link. Second, as much as we love the plot of the series it has never been the focus of the series. The story is always built around game mechanics not the reverse. That's why each game has it's own "gimmick" so to speak. You're allowed to dislike the gimmick in a game or two, even most of them if you like but you shouldn't disrespect the men who create them.
As for Lorule being different from the dark world or twilight realms of numerous other titles you're splitting hairs to support your argument. the only real difference between LttP's dark world and Lorule is the fact that Lorule has a name. Which don't like because it's unoriginal. Ok, I'll bite but you say your favorite games are OoT and MM. You mean the two games that are nearly doppelgangers of each other? Actually MM was originally going to be a remastered OoT similar to how ALBW is a remastered LttP. The Dual Worlds in the series almost always have doppelgangers but because they decided to give Zelda a doppelganger you're up in arms. You're splitting hairs AGAIN.
As for the Princess argument, I'll actually say the Oracle games featured a more accurate doppelganger to Zelda's function in the series. She's the damsel in distress, similar to Din and Nayru. and Zelda's name may be from this germanic "hild" root you speak of but she was named after Zelda Fitzgerald. Hilda isn't a rip-off SHE IS ZELDA in a different dimension. Just like Anju IS the Cucco Lady and the Festival Director IS the Head Carpenter. Her name is supposed to be similar.
And honestly from Post #42 it doesn't sound like you love the series, it sounds like you love OoT and it's doppelganger MM a complete rip-off of OoT. I don't understand how using a concept you so loved in MM has made you dislike ALBW so much. It honestly blows my mind. I mean theres nothing wrong with just liking those two games just be willing to admit that the other games don't spark your imagination like those two and respect the work that gets put into those you don't like.
Please If I'm missing your point please explain it to me, message me if you must. You shouldn't be this narrow minded, you are going to miss out on the future of this series if you're not willing to accept new stories that don't fit the OoT mold. The formula is changing and it should be a blessed thing but you're taking it the wrong way. Aonuma isn't running out of ideas he's coming up with brilliant ones that you don't like.

Also, Erebea is right. I've read the whole thread and your complaints can be equal to complaints about reused sky models or Link, or Ganon, or moblins, or poes (not Zelda she's in the title that's allowed by your standards I suppose she just has to be the exact same as she was in OoT or It's just a rip-off right?
 
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XskywardX

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GUYS. Alright, so, when I wrote this, I was really immature, narrow-minded, and uneducated about the game. I came back here on Zelda Dungeon today after a long session is playing Zelda games, and then I remembered this cancer of a post. I came here to see exactly what things I said and the arguments I made, and I'm so ashamed of myself haha.Since I made this post, I've had the opportunity of playing ALBW, and.. It's one of my favorites. Coming in just behind Twilight Princess and just ahead Majora's Mask. At the time of making this post, I would have never guessed I would grow to love ALBW so much. When I got my hands on it, it only took me a couple days of playing every chance I could to beat it; I was addicted. After I beat it, it took me another day or two to 100% it, I had an absolute blast playing and beating this game.

I just wanted to come on here quick to apologize to everyone on here! You all wrote very long posts that proved my ignorance, but to no avail. I didn't listen to a single one of you; I was dead set on MY uneducated opinions about the game.

Thanks everyone,
XskywardX
 
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