Spoiler ALttP-Zelda = Sleeping Princess?

[Puka]

As many fans, i'm possesed of the idea aLttP, OoX and LA share the same Link, but the tiny problem of the introduction-scene in OoX bring my beloved timeline down. So I started thinking about any solution - beside to give up this idea ;-) - and brought up the opportunity of one Link but two different Zeldas. As we all know the manual of Zelda II talks about an occurence about a sleeping princess, who existed in a hiden castle. Her state was the result of an evil course, because she decided not to tell where her father hided the Triforce of Courage. In this era of Hyrule the whole Triforce was used by the King, who splitted it shortly before dying, and hided one piece. This must be happen after the Triforce was taken out of the sacred realm, because in AoL the Courage-fragment is still in its hiding-place. The only periode it seems to be possible is after aLttP, but this doesn't mean aLttP-Zelda is the sleeping princess. The reasons, I believe this - or at least think it is possible -, are all in OoX, so if you don't think they share the same Link, you will refuse this theory.
In OoX, as we all know, the Triforce sends Link into a foreign Country, but why has Link access to this holy place, where the Triforce is stored? He can't be just a random guy and must be known and respected by the Holder of the Triforce - maybe because he saved Hyrule, und took the Triforce out of the Sacred Realm? If so, there is only one Zelda which fullfill this condition and showing a united Triforce in royal hands: ALttP.
A united Triforce in royal hands is part of the description in AoL, and another hint is given: " You who'll control the Triforce of the future. I shall hand down to you the secrets of the Triforce. There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage. When these three are brought together, the Triforce will share its maximum power. Of the three, I have left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. But the Triforce of Courage I have hidden for a reason.
Not everybody can use the Triforce. It requires a strong character with no evil thoughts. But an inborn special quality is also necessary. Unfortunately, I have not found such a person during my lifetime.
Therefore, I have decided to cast a spell on all of Hyrule. A crest will appear on a young man with that character who has been brought up correctly, has gained many kinds of experiences and reached a certain age. But, what will happen if someone else uses the Triforce before then? If it is misused, it will produce many evils."
This crest is shown in OoX, and it is obviously not the same symbol as in OoT, where it means to possesse a Triforce-fragment - OoX-Link doesn't own any of the 3 parts. If this is the same Crest as mentioned by the King's scroll, this means 2 things: 1. OoX-Link is at least 16, has a strong character without evil thoughts, and a inborn special quality (like the descents of the knights of hyrule? - Like aLttP-Link?) and gained many kinds of experiences (so there must be some 1st adventure)
2. the King have already casted the spell, his death and the course on sleeping-Zelda are happened or will happen shortly.
So this terms isolate the episode in the history of Hyrule, when this could be happen. It must be before or simultanously to OoX, because of the crest, it must be on the same Timeline like AoL, and it must be after a Zelda, which shows the united Triforce in royal hands. For me the only possibility is after ALttP. And I think it happend to aLttP-Zelda because of my strong believe in identical Heros in aLttP - OoX - LA.

--

finally a big thanks for fighting through my horrible English. I hope it was understandable.

 

[DuckNoises]

First, welcome to Zelda Dungeon.
It's not often that we see people jump into the theory right away.

There is a relatively simple and commonly accepted answer to the "sleeping Zelda" notion, that it has been retconned (that is to say, no longer believed to be accurate or relevant). This is because it really muddles up a lot of the timeline, and at the time of its creation, a timeline in and of itself hadn't really been conceived. It doesn't really work with anything after ALttP, and even then it's hard to work with. The biggest problem with the "sleeping Zelda" theory is its chronological placement -- AoL has to occur very late in the timeline, and it is often last or next to last on either the Child or Adult Timeline, because Ganon has to be dead for the plot to function.
The easiest solution really is just to ignore it; it isn't exactly good method, but to be frank, I don't think there really is a better one that I know of.

This crest is shown in OoX, and it is obviously not the same symbol as in OoT, where it means to possesse a Triforce-fragment - OoX-Link doesn't own any of the 3 parts. If this is the same Crest as mentioned by the King's scroll, this means 2 things: 1. OoX-Link is at least 16, has a strong character without evil thoughts, and a inborn special quality (like the descents of the knights of hyrule? - Like aLttP-Link?) and gained many kinds of experiences (so there must be some 1st adventure)

I don't follow the first part about the crest; how is it not the same as OoT?

Now, the ALttP/OoX/LA connection is not uncommon, and I agree with you there. This second part seems more to be reasoning for the ALttP/OoX/LA relationship more than anything about the "sleeping Zelda" notion, and I see where you're coming from. Some parts of OoX have something to do with the Triforce, and they do seem to point towards coming after ALttP, and featuring ALttP Link, if not also shown by extension from OoX combined with the overlapping elements of ALttP and LA. Since Link must travel by sea to get to Holodrum/Labrynna, it is very likely that he would have been at least 16 by the end of his first sea voyage. It's interesting to see you bring up AoL as evidence for that relationship, but I don't see why that necessitates a sleeping Zelda or a second Zelda. It's pretty solid, if not more solid, without a sleeping Zelda.

Good first post.

 

[Locke]

That's an interesting way to fix that issue. It works fairly well, but I think it creates more problems than it fixes. Who's the prince? Where'd the second Zelda come from? Why wasn't it mentioned at all in OoX? Basically I think it's easier to assume that Zelda already knows Link in OoX than to try to fit the SZS in such a small gap.

There is a relatively simple and commonly accepted answer to the "sleeping Zelda" notion, that it has been retconned (that is to say, no longer believed to be accurate or relevant). This is because it really muddles up a lot of the timeline, and at the time of its creation, a timeline in and of itself hadn't really been conceived. It doesn't really work with anything after ALttP, and even then it's hard to work with. The biggest problem with the "sleeping Zelda" theory is its chronological placement -- AoL has to occur very late in the timeline, and it is often last or next to last on either the Child or Adult Timeline, because Ganon has to be dead for the plot to function.
The easiest solution really is just to ignore it; it isn't exactly good method, but to be frank, I don't think there really is a better one that I know of.

I don't see any reason to believe that anything beyond the naming tradition would have been retconned. If you ignore that one part, it works well at any time after LttP.

I don't follow the first part about the crest; how is it not the same as OoT?

In AoL, the crest shows up on someone who is worthy of wielding the Triforce. The same seems to be the case with OoX, as Link is allowed into the Triforce chamber but does not actually possess it. In OoT and WW, the crest appears on one who actually possesses a piece of the Triforce within them.

 

[MrLuigi]

I just want to point out Link's Awakening comes before the Oracle games. Also I did a video on the sleeping Zelda. It is declared an inconsistency that could be taken into consideration.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

There is another problem with the ALttP-OoX conection beside the introduction-scene. If you visit Impa in OoS after beating the second dungeon, she will tell you to go to the swamp, where you'll face monsters stronger than anything you met before or something. But if it is the same Link as in ALttP, Impa, who is the nursemaid of Zelda would very likely know he fought allredy against Ganon. So if you don't want to say Mothula is stronger than Ganon the ALttP-OoX conection can't work

 

[Kombatgod]

I agree with you but I don't get your arguments.
First: what's wrong with OoX intros? Is it that Link has the Crest before going to the Triforce or what? Could you explain?
Anyway we can imagine every possible story for the Crest, it may even be a third one; the only thing that suggests OoX's Link to be a new one is that when he meets Zelda she presents herself, they don't know each other. To avoid this problem we can ignore that dialogue, considering it was made to present the character to the player, not to Link, so the game writer who chosed this solution ignored the timeline; or you may say it was another Zelda, but isn't it a little strange? I mean Twinrova had to sacrifice the Princess, she's said to be THE ONLY HOPE OF THE WORLD! Oh, yes, but there's onother one... I think two Zeldas could exist in the same period only years after AoL's story of the dying king, because every princess would be named Zelda, even two sisters! (actually it says every GIRL born in the castle, so even maids raising in the castle would be named Zelda)

The Oracle series was created as a side story, of course we can make any theory we want, but I think the connection between LttP and AoL should be searched in those two games: when LttP came out it was obviously meant as a prequel to the NES titles, because it told the origin or the Triforce and how the royal family got it. But the little thing I want to point out is AoL's manual saying that the hiding of the ToC was a story of when Hyrule was a united kingdom... and LttP took place right when Hyrule was a united kingdom. So it's fair to say that the story at least as they tought it at the release of LttP was that the King got the Triforce from Ganon, then when dying he hid the ToC. We can't say for sure it was the same king, but if he was than Zelda is surely the same.

There is another problem with the ALttP-OoX conection beside the introduction-scene. If you visit Impa in OoS after beating the second dungeon, she will tell you to go to the swamp, where you'll face monsters stronger than anything you met before or something. But if it is the same Link as in ALttP, Impa, who is the nursemaid of Zelda would very likely know he fought allredy against Ganon. So if you don't want to say Mothula is stronger than Ganon the ALttP-OoX conection can't work

Whoa! I mean. Would you really make a timeline out of such tiny statements? Then you'd probably consider every episode a story of its own, because every one of them has at least a little discrepancy. Anyway it's easy to justify that sentence: we never saw Link meeting Impa in LttP, so he never did. As I said Zelda's statement is a problem instead, you should have pointed that out. Anyway I think Impa is instead one thing that suggest the LttP/OoX connecction, because here I think thay included and redisigned her purpousely to show the LttP era's Impa.

I just want to point out Link's Awakening comes before the Oracle games. Also I did a video on the sleeping Zelda. It is declared an inconsistency that could be taken into consideration.

Point out? You mean: "I think that..."

But why should LA take place before OoX? I also believe in the OoX/LA theory because the Oracles are the ONLY games to have references to LA, and the ending of his leaving on a boat was said from the creators to be a voluntary reference to that game. With the story of Ganon's resurrection and the Crest they also retconned every statement in LA's manual that said he realized the prophecy of a Legendary Hero and also mentioned Ganon's ashes. While all these are little things and since there's no Triforce or Ganon or Seven Sages we can't be sure, there's no reason NOT to place OoX before LA, because no other game has any reference to it. Also LA's story is incomplete because Link is RETURNING from a journey, so the Oracles complete it!

 

[TheGermanLegend]

Whoa! I mean. Would you really make a timeline out of such tiny statements? Then you'd probably consider every episode a story of its own, because every one of them has at least a little discrepancy. Anyway it's easy to justify that sentence: we never saw Link meeting Impa in LttP, so he never did. As I said Zelda's statement is a problem instead, you should have pointed that out. Anyway I think Impa is instead one thing that suggest the LttP/OoX connecction, because here I think thay included and redisigned her purpousely to show the LttP era's Impa.

When released OoT was a direct prequel for ALttP, which means one of the maiden is very likely to be a descendant of the OoT Impa.(I think it's the girl kidnapped from Kakariko because this is the place her ancestor had founded.) This would make one of the maiden the Impa of ALttP's era, so if OoX takes place such a few years after ALttP she would know very well about Link fighting Ganon.

 

[Kombatgod]

When released OoT was a direct prequel for ALttP, which means one of the maiden is very likely to be a descendant of the OoT Impa.(I think it's the girl kidnapped from Kakariko because this is the place her ancestor had founded.) This would make one of the maiden the Impa of ALttP's era, so if OoX takes place such a few years after ALttP she would know very well about Link fighting Ganon.

Yeah, you got that point, but I think is very unlikely that Impa is a grown up maiden, because I don't think many years passed between the two games, as in LttP's artworks Link is shown to be like 15 yo already. I think it is more likely that they're just relatives. The maiden could even be Impa's daughter, who knows.

By the way, I too love trying to find what maiden is the descendant of what sages! :xd: Also in FSA. We should make a thread about that!

 

[TheGermanLegend]

Yeah, you got that point, but I think is very unlikely that Impa is a grown up maiden, because I don't think many years passed between the two games, as in LttP's artworks Link is shown to be like 15 yo already. I think it is more likely that they're just relatives. The maiden could even be Impa's daughter, who knows.

By the way, I too love trying to find what maiden is the descendant of what sages! :xd: Also in FSA. We should make a thread about that!

Ok, I like the Impa is the mother of the maid thoery. But this doesn't change anythink. I'm pretty sure if she realy is Impans daughter her mom would know that her daughter was kidnapped. And don't forget Impa being Zeldas nursemaid. I can't really imagin she didn't notice her daughter and the girl she was responsible for were kidnaped

 

[Puka]

It's interesting to see you bring up AoL as evidence for that relationship, but I don't see why that necessitates a sleeping Zelda or a second Zelda. It's pretty solid, if not more solid, without a sleeping Zelda.

Good first post.

The Problem is, even if it is the same Link in aLttP and OoX, Link is unknown by Princess Zelda in OoX, so I tried to find a solution for this. There are 3 possibilities:
1. it's a different Link, who never met Zelda before. (besides this two sentences from Impa and Zelda very unlikely, because of many many hints)
2. It's a different Zelda, who never met Link before. (upper theorie)
(both are combinable)
3. Zelda can't remember Link. (I have a extended-Winfish-dream-theorie about this)

If it's the same Link, I started asking where did the triforce-mark came from. As mentioned it is not the symbol of possessing one piece of the force, but the symbol of "the triforce of the future". This means since aLttP, where the Triforce was brought back to Hyrule, and OoX must settle the whole AoL-Backstory. This two points in time set the limits to the period of time when Zelda fell asleep. The shorter the period is the lesser possibilties for this occurence exist. So if it is the same Link in aLttP, sleeping zelda must be from aLttP, too.

That's an interesting way to fix that issue. It works fairly well, but I think it creates more problems than it fixes. Who's the prince? Where'd the second Zelda come from? Why wasn't it mentioned at all in OoX? Basically I think it's easier to assume that Zelda already knows Link in OoX than to try to fit the SZS in such a small gap.

Yes, we don't know anything about aLttP-Zelda's family, even her Mum is unknown. But this doesn't mean their are nonexistend. You are absolutly right, to fill the gap i'm forced to speculate about the possibility of a unknown brother and a second female dependend, maybe a Sister or niece of aLttP-Zelda. Both are highly possible, even if we don't know about it. Maybe the King sent his Son and his granddaughter away from hyrule because he feared to lose his heir by the pestilence in Hyrule, which is mentioned in the aLttP-manual. aLttP-Zelda had to stay, because she is one of the sages. Of course just speculation.

I agree with you but I don't get your arguments.
First: what's wrong with OoX intros? Is it that Link has the Crest before going to the Triforce or what? Could you explain?

hm... nothing wrong with the Intro, did I say something like this? Oh yes, intro is maybe short for introduction. Well in this case I meant the scene when Zelda introduces herself to link.

Anyway we can imagine every possible story for the Crest, it may even be a third one; the only thing that suggests OoX's Link to be a new one is that when he meets Zelda she presents herself, they don't know each other. To avoid this problem we can ignore that dialogue, considering it was made to present the character to the player, not to Link, so the game writer who chosed this solution ignored the timeline; or you may say it was another Zelda, but isn't it a little strange? I mean Twinrova had to sacrifice the Princess, she's said to be THE ONLY HOPE OF THE WORLD! Oh, yes, but there's onother one... I think two Zeldas could exist in the same period only years after AoL's story of the dying king, because every princess would be named Zelda, even two sisters! (actually it says every GIRL born in the castle, so even maids raising in the castle would be named Zelda)

It's not so strange. At this time OoX-Zelda is the only concious Zelda, and of course one of the royal family. Sleeping-Zelda is furthermore sealed in the north-palace, so twinrova can't reach her.

The Oracle series was created as a side story, of course we can make any theory we want, but I think the connection between LttP and AoL should be searched in those two games: when LttP came out it was obviously meant as a prequel to the NES titles, because it told the origin or the Triforce and how the royal family got it. But the little thing I want to point out is AoL's manual saying that the hiding of the ToC was a story of when Hyrule was a united kingdom... and LttP took place right when Hyrule was a united kingdom. So it's fair to say that the story at least as they tought it at the release of LttP was that the King got the Triforce from Ganon, then when dying he hid the ToC. We can't say for sure it was the same king, but if he was than Zelda is surely the same.

Thanks for support.

When released OoT was a direct prequel for ALttP, which means one of the maiden is very likely to be a descendant of the OoT Impa.(I think it's the girl kidnapped from Kakariko because this is the place her ancestor had founded.) This would make one of the maiden the Impa of ALttP's era, so if OoX takes place such a few years after ALttP she would know very well about Link fighting Ganon.

Nice thought. But maybe this old Impa wasn't back in Hyrule since she left.

 

[Satsy]

I have to ask, in the OOX games' introduction are you confusing Impa for Zelda? Zelda, last I checked, doesn't make an appearance in the games' beginning, but at least in Ages she sends word of your arrival ahead of time (Ralph tells you this). You're right that it wouldn't make any sense for Zelda to introduce herself to you, however Impa is someone you don't even get to see in LttP, so it would make sense that she'd introduce herself.

 

[Puka]

no, with the introduction-scene I meant the situation when Link meet Zelda, and she said to him: My name is Zelda. You must be Link. I knew it at first glance.
this just happen if you use the passwordsystem

 

[DuckNoises]

I just want to point out Link's Awakening comes before the Oracle games. Also I did a video on the sleeping Zelda. It is declared an inconsistency that could be taken into consideration.

This is only your opinion; you can't go on saying like it's an objective truth, when it is only your subjective opinion.

The Problem is, even if it is the same Link in aLttP and OoX, Link is unknown by Princess Zelda in OoX, so I tried to find a solution for this. There are 3 possibilities:
1. it's a different Link, who never met Zelda before. (besides this two sentences from Impa and Zelda very unlikely, because of many many hints)
2. It's a different Zelda, who never met Link before. (upper theorie)
(both are combinable)
3. Zelda can't remember Link. (I have a extended-Winfish-dream-theorie about this)

Ah, I see you agree with Mosley, then. He often argues vehemently (although he does it well), and I disagree with him on this matter. Here were some of my rebuttals on the matter:

From http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showt...i-Timeline-Theory&highlight=Timeline+theory,:

Zelda, if Link had known her prior, would likely act more surprised to see Link. She would have said something about their adventures in ALttP if the devs wanted to make that connection. ALttP was just to big of an event to assume that Zelda would show up in OoX and say "Oh hey, I'm Zelda. The Princess of Hyrule". Plus, if the player of OoX does not know who Zelda is (assuming this is the first Zelda game they are playing or something) she is described at the very beginning of the first quest by Impa.

Maybe the fact that she mentions Hyrule specifically is to tell the player that Holodrum/Labrynna are part of Hyrule (the universe), so that the player knows this isn't a separate universe/reality like Termina. I mention this because there are many new characters (at the time) that were introduced in the Oracle games that had not been previously introduced in any Hyrule-based game. Take Tingle, for example -- this is his first appearance in Hyrule (rather than Termina), since it is before the release of Wind Waker. An allusion to the fact that Labrynna/Holodrum are part of the Hyrule universe may have been necessary to prevent the player from thinking that it may be a Termina-based game, or a new universe entirely. People thinking that that was the case may have been a foreseen issue by Nintendo/Capcom (particularly because the Oracle games were the first original Zelda games since Majora's Mask), and they may have included the allusion to prevent confusion. That's my reasoning behind why Zelda would have mentioned that she is the Princess of Hyrule specifically.
Also, how would Zelda know that Impa mentioned her in the first game? I'd say that the introduction in the second game is more of a formal greeting by Zelda the character to Link the character, rather than an introduction of Zelda the character to the player. Keep in mind that when considering the ALttP-OoX-LA view that time has probably passed since ALttP, meaning their appearances could have changed to the point where a second introduction was necessary, because they may not have been able to recognize each other.

I don't see why Zelda re-introducing herself necessarily precludes them having met before, or precludes them being the same characters.

(Another good discussion on this can be found here: http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showt...rce-s-Zelda-Timeline/page3&highlight=OoX+Link )

There is another problem with the ALttP-OoX conection beside the introduction-scene. If you visit Impa in OoS after beating the second dungeon, she will tell you to go to the swamp, where you'll face monsters stronger than anything you met before or something. But if it is the same Link as in ALttP, Impa, who is the nursemaid of Zelda would very likely know he fought allredy against Ganon. So if you don't want to say Mothula is stronger than Ganon the ALttP-OoX conection can't work

How can we be so sure that Impa knows who Link is? She certainly doesn't seem to know him from the beginning of the game, so it's unlikely that she knows that he defeated Ganon. To the best of our knowledge, we do not know if ALttP Zelda had a nursemaid -- as far as I can recall, that was only in the original LoZ and AoL.
In addition, Kombatgod makes a fair point -- it seems a tad odd to let something so small as that prevent a connection.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

How can we be so sure that Impa knows who Link is? She certainly doesn't seem to know him from the beginning of the game, so it's unlikely that she knows that he defeated Ganon. To the best of our knowledge, we do not know if ALttP Zelda had a nursemaid -- as far as I can recall, that was only in the original LoZ and AoL.
In addition, Kombatgod makes a fair point -- it seems a tad odd to let something so small as that prevent a connection.

We know that the OoX Impa is the nursemaid of the OoX Zelda and this thread talks about ALttP and OoX focusing on the same Link and Zelda. This would make the OoX Impa the nursemaid of the Alttp Zelda becaus she is the OoX Zelda. And as metioned befor it is possible she was one of the maiden, or the mother of one of them, so she would very likely know about Link's battle with Ganon in ALttP.

 

[Puka]

Once I tried to read Zelda's sentence as an introduction-formula, too. But 'You must be Link' doesn't fit into this explanation. It also screw up the argument of a only-functional textpart, which is just written for the Player, who never played any Zelda before. Zelda simply didn't say "Link, is it really you? It's me Zelda!". This Sentence is either a mistake by the developer or a hint for the theorists. Also I think there is a reason why OoX is the only Zelda, which makes references to the AoL-backstory.

We know that the OoX Impa is the nursemaid of the OoX Zelda and this thread talks about ALttP and OoX focusing on the same Link and Zelda. This would make the OoX Impa the nursemaid of the Alttp Zelda becaus she is the OoX Zelda. And as metioned befor it is possible she was one of the maiden, or the mother of one of them, so she would very likely know about Link's battle with Ganon in ALttP.

Isn't my theorie a solution for this? Same Link + different Zelda = nursemaid of OoX-Zelda doesn't know (aLttp+OoX)-Link.
Of Course, just if you accept my theorie.