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So, following your preferences, how would you feel if botw2 was the same layout as botw (and all fully and immediately accessible), except the entrances to dungeons were narrative-gated so that they only appear after certain plot points in the story?

I’d add in that the choices of responses in dialogues are another ‘taking over’ by the game. In other games it’s simply yes or no answers throughout, which is limited in some ways but you feel less of the author’s mindset in other ways

If you chop them to see what happens, if you answer unhelpfully to their plights, if you don’t listen to what they say the first time round ... I’d say these all show you don’t feel respect for them as conscious agents. Now, be clear, I’m not putting a value judgment here by saying players...

Yeh, I can understand that criticism about bias/preference. I do seem to remember him acknowledging that though, especially on his love of puzzle-box dungeons. Regarding the shortcut/backtracking point, you're referring the Wind Waker temple example, I think? Yes, it could either way on that...

I agree that Dark Souls is generally very smooth on this front. It’s the model for my own game, and part of the reason I ask. Not too many cutscenes in it, and all of which make for exciting transitions in progress. I even like the little things like not locking the player in place during...

Thanks. Amended.

It seems botw was a virtually all open. Aside from the opening shrines, the narrative-gated divine beasts, you could go anywhere and do anything, only sometimes deterred by the ‘beefgating’ of enemies too tough for your current level. In contrast, a game like Skyward Sword had lots of ‘taking...

But would you feel like you missed out on the territory-expansion aspect if it was only about settling into the established area?

I hear what you say and that’s effectively what Alttp did with the dark world (albeit transforming the land instead of going under it). I guess the main question is would you be happy not venturing outwards to new places? I’m kind of divided, like the feeling of going outwards to new places...

I don’t think botw uses the word ‘necessary’. Yes, they talk about main quests, but those refer to importance, not necessity. Besides the intro shrines, the only necessary quest is defeating Ganon. That’s it.

This all depends on the definition of the word ‘main’, because if it’s not synonymous with the word ‘necessary’, there’s some subjective wriggle room to say it simply refers to the ‘more important’ parts of the game, as intended by the makers. You could also say that extended endings aren’t...

What do you think was cluttered about botw, specifically? One small example for me is the ingredients part of the menu, and that you need to scroll sideways through pages of them instead of simply scrolling down. Would’ve been much simpler and efficient. Even so, I still think it’s a less...

Hm, yes I can see why it might feel bigger. I assume this was all after you’d learned the world by playing it with the minimap first time round.

How comfortable was it getting around without the minimap? I’m toying with whether or not to use one in my own game for the sake of not getting lost or feeling disoriented, but at the risk of feeling less immersed.

Yes, as a coherent and consistent mythological whole, the Zelda series is a mess. Otherwise, when it comes to visual design, do you not think that it generally keeps things anti-clutter?

No worries! You still make a good point about the other aspects of design. How would you say OoT suffers from plot contrivances, contradictions and lazy characters? Or are you talking about the clutter of the mythology in terms of trying to be a coherent and consistent whole?

I agree with all this. Emergent gameplay, to me, feels far more arbitrary and far less purposeful. I think a single vision is the way to maximise purpose. It may be similar to having multiple endings to a story, which make none of them feel like the necessary thematic resolution. Imagine a film...

Are you talking visual design though?

Besides their long-running philosophy that story is a byproduct of gameplay, it seems that all designs elements in Zelda games steer clear of clutter. Things like xp systems, over busy UI, info dumps on maps, weapons systems. There’s very little excess that doesn’t serve elegant presentation for...

If that’s a yes, then you’d agree that korok seed retrieval marked as main quest is therefore main quest. Surely main quest is what’s needed to get to the credits, as GZ Zelda points out

Wait, are you saying that whatever the game lists it as, it is?

Sure, but suppose the game listed korok seeds collections as main quests, why would they not be?

I agree. Because it’s not necessary for basic game completion, it’s all sidequest except Ganon.

This way, you’re still free to discover any shrines at any point, but if you choose to follow the plot points of a main quest narrative, a select few of those shrines transform into traditional dungeons (perhaps even novel items in each). Of course, if you choose not to follow the main quest...

@Mikey the Moblin I agree, although I think the key question in all of this might be whether you’re happy to play a sequel where there are no new areas, only evolved ones. Unless of course, they are new physical layers of area (besides layers of meaning), such as underground or new buildings...

Thanks, Mikey. Any idea why you might not feel opposed to it? You’d miss out on the discovery of new areas, but perhaps it could be exciting enough to explore recontextualised areas. Personally, I’m divided on it, because exploring new areas feels like I’m expanding, kind of like stretching out...

Imagine playing Alttp only in the light world, and then playing Alttp2 in the dark world. It would be kind of like this. But perhaps the discovery of entirely new areas whenever you play a new game makes up a large part of the appeal.

Yeh, this is a good point. Visual teasers to get the audience interested in the backstory

Well said. I concur

Big words for structural analysis (some words are simply the most rigorous), playful words for personal experience (each to their own!). No worries if you want to use something else! I think you got it with ‘at the moment’. It’s like informed freedom without feeling preoccupied.

There’s very little main story except backstory (memories), some initial plot turns of the old man then Impa, and optional subplots surrounding each divine beast. Otherwise it’s all visually-led exploration to see what’s around every next corner. To me, it all boils down to my thought process...

It’s a good point of clarification, and that’s that the ‘too tough’ part is relative to the general difficulty of the overall game. While being a tough area, Sen’s fortress wouldn’t be a beefgate because the cutscene (of its door unlocking) signals to you that this is supposed to be the next in...

I agree that deterrence is an effect of beefgates, but I don’t think it’s the criteria for what makes one. After all, what do you call an area that’s accessible but too tough, given your current levels?

It’s the definition I’m using. Why do you think Ganon’s castle isn’t a beef gate?

Explore every place, collect all loot, and beat Ganon. No?

@MapelSerup I actually agree, and that link is super useful, so thanks. Perhaps we can say some open worlds are sometimes beefy open worlds? Dark Souls 1 seems to be a beefy (to brutal degrees) open world, because you can choose multiple directions at first, but actually when you consider the...

It’s true that it’s not really pseudo, it’s more like it’s steered. I’m trying to find a prefix that distinguishes between an open world where you can easily go anywhere and an open world where you have to beat Punchout’s Mike Tyson to go somewhere the developers don’t intend for you to go first...

The root problem here is that it’s not possible even in theory to have a turning plot in a truly open world. That’s why botw reverted to essentially just backstory ... because it’s not plot that needs to move forward during the gameplay. A pseudo-open world is another option, such as in Witcher...

@GZ Zelda Yes, didn’t really specify what story progressions are, but I agree they’re qualitative. They could become more quantitative if there’s a repeated plot beat (eg help so and so find her chickens, and then help her neighbour do the same thing, and then her neighbour etc). Item...

Agreed, the reviews are definitely mixed, including a love of the open world freedoms but also a sense of lacking the traditional progressions. Regarding the divine beasts, I think these were also necessarily limited because of the open world design. If you consider that you progress inside all...

@Mikey the Moblin Hm, even though we are in fact now talking about your personal preferences (as opposed to objective reasons), I’m not convinced your reasons don’t still boil down to qualitative vs quantitative. You do have something of point about champion powers. Rivali’s Gale is a novel...

Reasoning?

Qualitative = novel changes, such as function Quantitative = changes in degree, such as strengthening weapons or toughening armour Botw is an open design in open spaces (except for the intro and some closed design to access each divine beast). The benefit of this whole approach was the total...

For example, an RPG like Witcher 3 has many, detailed and interesting subplots in the sidequests, totalling a whopping 13 hours of cutscenes (including those from the main plot). But even if all side quest cutscenes/dialogues in botw were hugely compelling, given that they put a hold on the...

Oh, there definitely are some similarities! The demanding combat, which require patience, care, timing and observation of enemy attack patterns. Sure, Zelda II does this in a much simpler way, but those qualities are still present. Also, besides being careful not to lose XP upon death, there’s...

I suspect open world will be the way to go for a while now. Dark Souls managed to give the illusion of open world design by making the game semi-open (virtually identical to Alttp’s structure) but in narrow spaces. Compare this with botw’s open world in open spaces. Not saying zelda games from...

I think Link is intentionally a silent protagaonist (and one without an internal flaw that needs overcoming). This allows the audience to project themselves onto him, which is a common technique in storytelling, especially videogames.

@Uwu_Oocoo2 Limiting the size of the area for qualitative rewards at least allows you to know you can find them without tooo much effort. @Mikey the Moblin Ah yes, good shout. Those coins are a simple and clear way to compromise. On a side note, given that you’re a fan of dark souls, are you...

Fomo = fear of missing out By quantitative, think the korok seeds which give predictably diminishing returns that allow you to up your stats (in this case, more space for equipment). There are so many seeds in total that it’s clearly not worth getting them all (you’re even mocked by the...

Zelda II, for me, is incredibly addictive for the combat alone in that it is very simple but very difficult to master. Rewarding as hell when you do. Any other zelda games like this?