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When did Zelda stop leading?

Zelda is often cited for being one of the earliest and absolute best examples of the action adventure genre in video games.

I happen to agree but only so far.

Zelda used to lead and revolutionise but its hard to say that it still does. We got Skyward Sword when the rest of the world got Skyrim. Breath of the Wild long after The Witcher 3.

And Zelda has had some absolutely terrible titles where the 2D games are concerned...

So, when did Zelda stop being the leader for you?

When do you think it fell behind?
 

Dio

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It stopped after Twilight Princess. That was the last time a Zelda game was actually exceptional and stood out from other games. It took what the greatest game of all time (OOT) did and went further with it. Modernizing it. And that just says something about how far ahead of everything else OOT was for a long long time if making a few improvements to the formula landed us with a game which stood up to industry standards.

The storytelling for 2006 was still ahead of most games. Games don't always have the best storytelling particularly back then but the writing of TP was great. It also had what would have been considered a big world amd whilst not truly open, still felt alive. Of course the gameplay still set TP apart from other games and felt different to whatever else was on the market.

Still it wasnt so ahead of its time as OOT was and in some ways it was even starting to show Zelda falling behind in certain areas. Examples being the lack of HD, lack of voice acting and not having a fully orchestrated soundtrack.

On the other hand Skyward Sword, hardly progressing at all from TP and even regressing in some areas was very much behind. It was a game that might have felt at home being released in 2006, though to me TP still seems like it would have been the game that released after because of how much better it is.

By 2011 we had Skyrim. This was an actual open world game, great storytelling, great potion making and crafting system, great music, graphics were decent for the time. SS was the opposite to those things. There was nothing special about it.

Then more recently we got BoTW. Which was mediocre as well. Kind of telling that Zelda truly has stopped being the leader. Two major entries in a row 11 years of not producibg a leading game. It showed that SS was not a one off lapse in Nintendo's judgement but that mediocrity was the future.

It annoys me that BoTW was praised excessively for doing gameplay wise what Zelda should have done many many years ago and what many other games actually did many years ago. Like when the bad kid in class does some work for once and gets heaps of praise and the hard workers never get any. BoTW had the open world we should have had in 2011 and doesnt even have the redeeming quality of being the biggest or prettiest compared to the competition.

Unless you are a pure Nintendo fan, BoTW brings little new to the table. Skyrim, Witcher 3 or GTA even have big open worlds. The gameplay doesn't follow on from TP with the hidden skills which so many love. Instead it is just a mix of Assassins Creed and Shadow of Mordor but unfortunately more like a poor man's version where the fun is taken out of fighting, swordplay looks neither visually pleasing and is absent special moves. Combat is also clunky and swords explode when you use them a couple of times.

So these days I'm just a fan of the old games from when the series actually led in the industry and made exceptional experiences and I am convinced that sadly Zelda's days of being at the forefront for any reason other than brand popularity and nostalgia are done.
 
It stopped after Twilight Princess. That was the last time a Zelda game was actually exceptional and stood out from other games. It took what the greatest game of all time (OOT) did and went further with it. Modernizing it. And that just says something about how far ahead of everything else OOT was for a long long time if making a few improvements to the formula landed us with a game which stood up to industry standards.

The storytelling for 2006 was still ahead of most games. Games don't always have the best storytelling particularly back then but the writing of TP was great. It also had what would have been considered a big world amd whilst not truly open, still felt alive. Of course the gameplay still set TP apart from other games and felt different to whatever else was on the market.

Still it wasnt so ahead of its time as OOT was and in some ways it was even starting to show Zelda falling behind in certain areas. Examples being the lack of HD, lack of voice acting and not having a fully orchestrated soundtrack.

On the other hand Skyward Sword, hardly progressing at all from TP and even regressing in some areas was very much behind. It was a game that might have felt at home being released in 2006, though to me TP still seems like it would have been the game that released after because of how much better it is.

By 2011 we had Skyrim. This was an actual open world game, great storytelling, great potion making and crafting system, great music, graphics were decent for the time. SS was the opposite to those things. There was nothing special about it.

Then more recently we got BoTW. Which was mediocre as well. Kind of telling that Zelda truly has stopped being the leader. Two major entries in a row 11 years of not producibg a leading game. It showed that SS was not a one off lapse in Nintendo's judgement but that mediocrity was the future.

It annoys me that BoTW was praised excessively for doing gameplay wise what Zelda should have done many many years ago and what many other games actually did many years ago. Like when the bad kid in class does some work for once and gets heaps of praise and the hard workers never get any. BoTW had the open world we should have had in 2011 and doesnt even have the redeeming quality of being the biggest or prettiest compared to the competition.

Unless you are a pure Nintendo fan, BoTW brings little new to the table. Skyrim, Witcher 3 or GTA even have big open worlds. The gameplay doesn't follow on from TP with the hidden skills which so many love. Instead it is just a mix of Assassins Creed and Shadow of Mordor but unfortunately more like a poor man's version where the fun is taken out of fighting, swordplay looks neither visually pleasing and is absent special moves. Combat is also clunky and swords explode when you use them a couple of times.

So these days I'm just a fan of the old games from when the series actually led in the industry and made exceptional experiences and I am convinced that sadly Zelda's days of being at the forefront for any reason other than brand popularity and nostalgia are done.

Good post, glad to have you on the team. I totally agree with all of this and now I really wanna play TP.
 
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YIGAhim

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Zelda was revolutionary in the OG, in AlttP, definitely in OoT, kinda in WW, and in TP. Some may argue that SS and the motion controls were revolutionary but they were about as popular as the Lazerdisc or the Virtual Boy. BoTW was years behind the times and still doesn't compare to Skyrim, despite having a bigger world.

BoTW showed us that Nintendo is trying to brute force out their games with quantity instead of painstakingly hard work on quality.

However, with the Nintendo Switch being absolutely revolutionary, and with Nintendo always finding a way to keep it Fresh (Mario Odyssey, ect), I would not count them out of the race just yet.

They're down 8-3 at halftime right now and they get a 1 minute break, but they can come back with something new and groundbreaking (Hopefully not weapon breaking)
 

mαrkαsscoρ

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eh, I'd really say after the n64 days is when it stopped leading, only thing we really got in the gamecube era was a few solid entries, nothing truly groundbreaking, but yeah I'd probably agree that skyward sword was when zelda was actually falling behind of the times
 

Shroom

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I'd say about the time of the Wii. Skyward Sword's game-play felt like what a lot of people thought Twilight Princess would be on the Wii, so it sort of felt too little too late. If you're counting handheld titles, they also started to fall victim to implementing gimmicky controls at that point rather than pushing the series, and I say that as a person who really enjoys Spirit Tracks.

Wind Waker and Twilight Princess felt like the last big booms as far as pushing the genre forward, but I like that Nintendo is catching up and I like the game play direction of Breath of the Wild. I think it could be improved upon greatly, but there's a lot of elements that I think work really well and it has me hopeful for future titles.

I think it's a shame that the 3DS didn't get its own original title because I think the platform would have done the series some justice, and I think that was a misstep on their part, but yeah.
 

Hydef Hyrule

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From Zelda 1 to OOT the games were revolutionary and set standards with every release.

I would say that WW and TP were more evolutionary then revolutionary. Let me preface this by saying that I do like those games a lot, but let me take you back to the past and lets explore their context in gaming history. Big post ahead.

We had Ico in 2001 which felt like it took the raw essence of Zelda's dungeon exploration and innovated with it. The plot was boiled down to the essentials. It used show not tell storytelling techniques and had a degree of emotional intelligence in its storytelling which is still rare in gaming. Additionally, the art style was distinctive and beautiful. It raised the bar for this kind of game, for sure.

Wind Waker came out in the end of 2002 in Japan and early 2003 elsewhere. It had a cutting edge new graphical style that holds up to this day. It refined the N64 Zelda formula to a great degree. The openness of the Great Sea was innovative and the combat was polished up, and it had a great storyline. It felt great to play. Sailing up and landing on a beach of an island with zero load times felt great. Thematically, the essence of the plot was not clinging to the past and to keep looking forward. Ironic considering the next game in the series.

Late 2005 - Shadow of the Colossus. The sequel to Ico. What can I say? It was a huge game, deservedly so. The gameplay was a massive breath of fresh air. The complexity of the Colossi, both in terms of design and gameplay was super innovative. These towering, beautiful monstrosities each had to be taken down in unique and increasingly complex ways. The soundtrack was fully orchestrated and remains a high point for gaming. It was dynamic too, changing based on what was happening in the battles and as you explored. The storyline was told in a similar minimalist degree to Ico, but with even deeper emotion and style. There was a huge world to explore as well, beautiful and varied. After completing this, I wondered if Zelda had been outdone. How would Nintendo top this?

Late 2006 - Twilight Princess. After being announced with an insanely hype trailer (with an equally tear the roof off crowd reaction), then moving from Gamecube to Wii to further utilize Nintendo's newest technology, I was ready to have my socks blown off. Upon starting the game however, something immediately dawned on me - the lack of originality of the title screen sequence. Like Ocarina, we see Link riding Epona around while quiet, emotional music slowly builds before the Zelda logo appears. But we also see a cascade of bloom, and a cliff heavy landscape that seems not only reminiscent of Shadow of the Colossus, but imitative in an unflattering way. The game mostly follows the framework of Ocarina for most of it's structure. Forest dungeon, Gorons, Fire Dungeon, Zora, Water Dungeon. Some better variety is introduced in the second half of the game, fortunately. Most of the new elements, were, in my opinion, unfortunately mostly unsuccessful.

The Wolf Link segments are dull, repetitive bug hunts. Wolf Link himself isn't fleshed out enough to feel different. His moveset is almost identical to human Link, but where human Link gets to learn several cool (however inessential) moves for combat, Wolf Link remains the same throughout the game. You get these contextual moments where Midna lets you jump much further and higher then you normally could, but there's no freedom to this. How much better would it have been to be able to explore these sections organically, instead of a button prompt telling you what to do? The Wolf sense feature is another example of the bare minimum of a concept being included. You get assigned a scent for your current objective and then you follow it. It's a glorified arrow on a HUD element. Another thing that I find strange is that gaining the ability to transform into Wolf form at will basically renders Epona useless. For her early significance to the story and her connection to Link, she is essentially cast aside for a mechanical upgrade, a faster to utilize form of speedy transport.

There are some cool new elements, don't get me wrong. Horseback combat is cool and you get a decent amount of chances to really try it out. Some of the items, like the Spinner, Dual Clawshot feel great. But then you have things like the Slingshot. Handy at first, but when you get the Bow, why would you ever use it again? It would be one thing if it replaced the slingshot, representing Link's power growing or something, but it remains in your inventory, never to be used again. It feels like there are many things in the game design like this - not fully thought out.

As much as the game was advertised as a dark edgy Zelda, the tone is all over the place. For every cutscene like Zelda surrendering to Zant, her sword slowly dropping to the floor, you have things like having to slap a baboon's giant red asscheeks in a miniboss fight. You have things like the escorting the dying Midna scene, but then youve got things like that chump in Kakariko village with the welders mask doing the the Charlie Chaplin bit when confronted by the Orcs.

The pinnacle of the this to me was a moment after I got Epona for the first time. Picture this. You triumphantly ride back into Hyrule Field, with that great heroic theme playing. You leap over the fence blocking the way out of Kakariko Village, ready to face your next challange... and then you're immediately interrupted by the goofy postman and his equally goofy music stopping you. A small thing, but a definite way to kill that epic feeling.

I do like most of the environmental design a lot. Faron Woods is beautiful. And the second half of the game redeems TP for me. Great dungeons. The atmosphere is frequently really cool. Snowpeak and the journey there are very memorable. I feel that the biggest successful OOT homage is following the Skull Kid through the Lost Woods, while a haunted version of the old theme plays, before returning to the Temple of Time. Awesome.

Where Shadow of the Colossus proved you could have both orchestrated music and have it function dynamically, TP is still utilizing sample based MIDI music. The sample quality had improved over WW, but its still a far cry from SOTCs beautiful, richly textured soundtrack.

The bosses - not to beat a dead horse here, but we're still operating in the "do the same thing three times" mode with little exception. Compare this, once again, to SOTC... or even just the fact that this is 4th 3D Zelda to utilize this largely unmodified approach to boss encounters. This is where Zelda was becoming complacent and not leading the industry in terms of action adventure games. I still like it a lot, don't get me wrong. But it was clear that it wasn't nearly as innovative as it's predecessors.

2009 - Demons Souls. An extremely innovative title that definitely owes some influence from the 3D Zeldas, but had the best 3rd person melee combat in any game yet released. Dank atmospheres, great character customization, a degree of challenge not seen in most gaming for close to a decade by that point. Wow, I hope the next Zelda has combat like this, I thought to myself at the time.

2011 - Skyrim, Dark Souls, and Skyward Sword are all released within 3 months. Oh man, where to begin. Skyrim continued to evolve the Elder Scrolls formula, was a massive popular hit. Dark Souls refined Demons Souls combat to a razor sharp edge and introduced a revolutionary interconnected world, a metroidvania for the modern age of gaming. Both games focus heavily on player freedom, playing the game your way. Super replayable as a result. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, gives a big fat middle finger to the concept of player agency and freedom. After another tediously long introduction, featuring characters with the depth and design of an 80s Saturday morning cartoon, Skyward Sword sends you down a bewilderingly restrictive rabbit hole of linearity. It feels like the game is telling you exactly how to play it and what to do, constantly. The world itself is absolutely prohibitive in terms of freedom. The closest you get to exploration are the meaningless floating islands of Skyloft, totally divorced from the world below. Exploration in a game, beyond mechanical rewards, works best when it tells you more about the world it takes place in. The floating islands definitely don't qualify. Fi represents a ton of these problems in a nutshell, constantly taking control away from the player to tell them exactly what it is they need to do at that moment. Sir, there's a 100% chance that the game would have been massively improved if they removed her completely.

Nintendo's central concept for innovation for this game was full 1 to 1 sword control with the Wii+ control. Awesome! The problem is that, again, your freedom to utilize this is quickly stripped away, as the enemies begin to become equipped with shields and electric rods which can only be defeated by swinging your sword in one particular way. Why bother then? When it reduces each encounter to a puzzle with only one obvious solution, what's the point of? What were they thinking?

The 3 environments of the game are again forest, fire, and water, with variations as you progress. There is a spark of innovation in the sandsea which is awesome, but like Twilight Princess, this idea is dropped and never returned to be fully fleshed out, again. I despise so much of Skyward Sword and it's design philosophy. It's like going to an amusement park and being told, precisely, what rides you'll get to go on, in which order, what food to eat, the pace in which to do so, and exactly how much fun you're allowed to have at any given time. Ugh.

Breath of the Wild, if anything else, realizes that sapping player freedom and agency like a starving vampire is a bad thing, and puts you in CONTROL faster then any other 3D Zelda has in over a decade. It obviously looks to a lot of current open world design trends, but innovates with the intricate physics and chemical systems. And as complex as they surely are under the hood, the game is still super polished and stable, which is much more then you can say about any of it's peers. It's a total breath of fresh air for Zelda and it needed it so badly. I hope they can include more traditional atmospheric dungeons and music in the next one while keeping the player freedom and agency.

Okay, mega post over! :)
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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From Zelda 1 to OOT the games were revolutionary and set standards with every release.

I would say that WW and TP were more evolutionary then revolutionary. Let me preface this by saying that I do like those games a lot, but let me take you back to the past and lets explore their context in gaming history. Big post ahead.

We had Ico in 2001 which felt like it took the raw essence of Zelda's dungeon exploration and innovated with it. The plot was boiled down to the essentials. It used show not tell storytelling techniques and had a degree of emotional intelligence in its storytelling which is still rare in gaming. Additionally, the art style was distinctive and beautiful. It raised the bar for this kind of game, for sure.

Wind Waker came out in the end of 2002 in Japan and early 2003 elsewhere. It had a cutting edge new graphical style that holds up to this day. It refined the N64 Zelda formula to a great degree. The openness of the Great Sea was innovative and the combat was polished up, and it had a great storyline. It felt great to play. Sailing up and landing on a beach of an island with zero load times felt great. Thematically, the essence of the plot was not clinging to the past and to keep looking forward. Ironic considering the next game in the series.

Late 2005 - Shadow of the Colossus. The sequel to Ico. What can I say? It was a huge game, deservedly so. The gameplay was a massive breath of fresh air. The complexity of the Colossi, both in terms of design and gameplay was super innovative. These towering, beautiful monstrosities each had to be taken down in unique and increasingly complex ways. The soundtrack was fully orchestrated and remains a high point for gaming. It was dynamic too, changing based on what was happening in the battles and as you explored. The storyline was told in a similar minimalist degree to Ico, but with even deeper emotion and style. There was a huge world to explore as well, beautiful and varied. After completing this, I wondered if Zelda had been outdone. How would Nintendo top this?

Late 2006 - Twilight Princess. After being announced with an insanely hype trailer (with an equally tear the roof off crowd reaction), then moving from Gamecube to Wii to further utilize Nintendo's newest technology, I was ready to have my socks blown off. Upon starting the game however, something immediately dawned on me - the lack of originality of the title screen sequence. Like Ocarina, we see Link riding Epona around while quiet, emotional music slowly builds before the Zelda logo appears. But we also see a cascade of bloom, and a cliff heavy landscape that seems not only reminiscent of Shadow of the Colossus, but imitative in an unflattering way. The game mostly follows the framework of Ocarina for most of it's structure. Forest dungeon, Gorons, Fire Dungeon, Zora, Water Dungeon. Some better variety is introduced in the second half of the game, fortunately. Most of the new elements, were, in my opinion, unfortunately mostly unsuccessful.

The Wolf Link segments are dull, repetitive bug hunts. Wolf Link himself isn't fleshed out enough to feel different. His moveset is almost identical to human Link, but where human Link gets to learn several cool (however inessential) moves for combat, Wolf Link remains the same throughout the game. You get these contextual moments where Midna lets you jump much further and higher then you normally could, but there's no freedom to this. How much better would it have been to be able to explore these sections organically, instead of a button prompt telling you what to do? The Wolf sense feature is another example of the bare minimum of a concept being included. You get assigned a scent for your current objective and then you follow it. It's a glorified arrow on a HUD element. Another thing that I find strange is that gaining the ability to transform into Wolf form at will basically renders Epona useless. For her early significance to the story and her connection to Link, she is essentially cast aside for a mechanical upgrade, a faster to utilize form of speedy transport.

There are some cool new elements, don't get me wrong. Horseback combat is cool and you get a decent amount of chances to really try it out. Some of the items, like the Spinner, Dual Clawshot feel great. But then you have things like the Slingshot. Handy at first, but when you get the Bow, why would you ever use it again? It would be one thing if it replaced the slingshot, representing Link's power growing or something, but it remains in your inventory, never to be used again. It feels like there are many things in the game design like this - not fully thought out.

As much as the game was advertised as a dark edgy Zelda, the tone is all over the place. For every cutscene like Zelda surrendering to Zant, her sword slowly dropping to the floor, you have things like having to slap a baboon's giant red asscheeks in a miniboss fight. You have things like the escorting the dying Midna scene, but then youve got things like that chump in Kakariko village with the welders mask doing the the Charlie Chaplin bit when confronted by the Orcs.

The pinnacle of the this to me was a moment after I got Epona for the first time. Picture this. You triumphantly ride back into Hyrule Field, with that great heroic theme playing. You leap over the fence blocking the way out of Kakariko Village, ready to face your next challange... and then you're immediately interrupted by the goofy postman and his equally goofy music stopping you. A small thing, but a definite way to kill that epic feeling.

I do like most of the environmental design a lot. Faron Woods is beautiful. And the second half of the game redeems TP for me. Great dungeons. The atmosphere is frequently really cool. Snowpeak and the journey there are very memorable. I feel that the biggest successful OOT homage is following the Skull Kid through the Lost Woods, while a haunted version of the old theme plays, before returning to the Temple of Time. Awesome.

Where Shadow of the Colossus proved you could have both orchestrated music and have it function dynamically, TP is still utilizing sample based MIDI music. The sample quality had improved over WW, but its still a far cry from SOTCs beautiful, richly textured soundtrack.

The bosses - not to beat a dead horse here, but we're still operating in the "do the same thing three times" mode with little exception. Compare this, once again, to SOTC... or even just the fact that this is 4th 3D Zelda to utilize this largely unmodified approach to boss encounters. This is where Zelda was becoming complacent and not leading the industry in terms of action adventure games. I still like it a lot, don't get me wrong. But it was clear that it wasn't nearly as innovative as it's predecessors.

2009 - Demons Souls. An extremely innovative title that definitely owes some influence from the 3D Zeldas, but had the best 3rd person melee combat in any game yet released. Dank atmospheres, great character customization, a degree of challenge not seen in most gaming for close to a decade by that point. Wow, I hope the next Zelda has combat like this, I thought to myself at the time.

2011 - Skyrim, Dark Souls, and Skyward Sword are all released within 3 months. Oh man, where to begin. Skyrim continued to evolve the Elder Scrolls formula, was a massive popular hit. Dark Souls refined Demons Souls combat to a razor sharp edge and introduced a revolutionary interconnected world, a metroidvania for the modern age of gaming. Both games focus heavily on player freedom, playing the game your way. Super replayable as a result. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, gives a big fat middle finger to the concept of player agency and freedom. After another tediously long introduction, featuring characters with the depth and design of an 80s Saturday morning cartoon, Skyward Sword sends you down a bewilderingly restrictive rabbit hole of linearity. It feels like the game is telling you exactly how to play it and what to do, constantly. The world itself is absolutely prohibitive in terms of freedom. The closest you get to exploration are the meaningless floating islands of Skyloft, totally divorced from the world below. Exploration in a game, beyond mechanical rewards, works best when it tells you more about the world it takes place in. The floating islands definitely don't qualify. Fi represents a ton of these problems in a nutshell, constantly taking control away from the player to tell them exactly what it is they need to do at that moment. Sir, there's a 100% chance that the game would have been massively improved if they removed her completely.

Nintendo's central concept for innovation for this game was full 1 to 1 sword control with the Wii+ control. Awesome! The problem is that, again, your freedom to utilize this is quickly stripped away, as the enemies begin to become equipped with shields and electric rods which can only be defeated by swinging your sword in one particular way. Why bother then? When it reduces each encounter to a puzzle with only one obvious solution, what's the point of? What were they thinking?

The 3 environments of the game are again forest, fire, and water, with variations as you progress. There is a spark of innovation in the sandsea which is awesome, but like Twilight Princess, this idea is dropped and never returned to be fully fleshed out, again. I despise so much of Skyward Sword and it's design philosophy. It's like going to an amusement park and being told, precisely, what rides you'll get to go on, in which order, what food to eat, the pace in which to do so, and exactly how much fun you're allowed to have at any given time. Ugh.

Breath of the Wild, if anything else, realizes that sapping player freedom and agency like a starving vampire is a bad thing, and puts you in CONTROL faster then any other 3D Zelda has in over a decade. It obviously looks to a lot of current open world design trends, but innovates with the intricate physics and chemical systems. And as complex as they surely are under the hood, the game is still super polished and stable, which is much more then you can say about any of it's peers. It's a total breath of fresh air for Zelda and it needed it so badly. I hope they can include more traditional atmospheric dungeons and music in the next one while keeping the player freedom and agency.

Okay, mega post over! :)
2004 - GTA: San Andreas
 

Hydef Hyrule

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Yeah, another big innovator. I was trying to keep it to games with somewhat similar gameplay loops / settings. But yes, San Andreas was another big milestone for freedom and possibility in gaming. GTA3 too of course.
 

Castle

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It began with Twilight Princess, my best in series. I'll say it again, Twilight Princess is half the game it had every right to be.

Twilight Princess had every right to be Skyrim long before Skyrim was ever a thing. Skyrim turned out to be the inevitable evolution of video games, but Twilight Princess could have been that years prior. What Twilight Princess could have been could have made Skyrim look like another one of its own pathetic wannabes. I guess I didn't realize it at the time but in hindsight, Nintendo was already losing its edge.

It's all been downhill from there. Suckward and Skyrim would go on to be released within days of each other, and Suckwort ends up being utterly impotent and laughably pathetic compared to the majestic self perpetuating hype monger that is Skyrim. Then BotW drops centuries later as yet another in a painfully long line of bland cookie cutter clones of every Ubisoft opin whorldd ever churned out.
 
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I feel like it stopped leading ages ago. What helped it lead was at least in part the lack of competition. The games are good, but they're not the only games of their kind now, which at least in terms of public perception is what was going on for a bit. It's not a bad thing though.
 

DarkestLink

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Oct 28, 2012
Well Skyrim isn't an action adventure game. It's an Open World. It's in a completely different genre from Zelda, so I don't see what that has to do with anything. Skyrim simply wasn't a natural direction for Zelda to take. It's not even close to what Zelda is and the only reason Zelda can be mentioned in the same breath is because they tried copying it now.

As a whole, I wouldn't call Zelda revolutionary. It's certainly filled with pointless changes and gimmicks, but to call it revolutionary would imply that it not only did someting new, but it did something that was so progressive that it was continuously used and adapted upon by later developers. And at one point, sure the series was revolutionary. But it wasn't revolutionary because they kept changing things up. It was revolutionary because it's an old series that existed during the pioneering times of video games and tried to evolve and improve on itself. These evolutions in gaming (targetting, saving, etc.) were simply too good to not be used by other developers. Despite this, the Zelda formula is very unique. The "clones" are few and even those supposed clones (like Okami) really don't play like Zelda at all.

And to be honest, I don't see the issue. Being revolutionary isn't inherently a good thing. Call of Duty and Skyrim are examples of the rare modern game that could be considered revolutionary, but I would never say that their impact on gaming was a positive one. I like Skyrim, but it gave rise to a bunch of meager, bloated Open World games competing to be the largest one, often filled with too much filler content, and are tedious to get through. They were made by developers who don't have a passion for Skyrim and don't understand why Skyrim was successful, but want to follow the trend Skyrim set and make money off of it. Our current market is frankly poisoned with an overflow of low quality Open Worlds trying and failing to emulate Skyrim and each other. And before the Open World phase, we had the First Person Shooter phase (which is still technically on-going but starting to die out) that occurred with the revolution of Call of Duty. It's the exact same situation of developers poorly trying to mimic Call of Duty to generate sales without having a fundamental understanding of why it was successful and how they could evolve from it. EDIT: Hell, I think the reason CoD is so stunted is likely because the developers are afraid of ruining their "secret sauce" if you will.

And I know this will upset some people, but that's my problem with Breath of the Wild. It felt like they were just trying to cash in on a trend because it was there and they could make money. I love Zelda, but I know that I'm part of a niche fanbase compared to the larger fanbase of Open World games. Bethesda has their problems (and they have a LOT of problems), but they clearly have a passion for what they do, many of them are gamers, and while they do tend to rush and take shortcuts, they clearly have a lot of love for the games they create and it's easy to see in Skyrim, especially if you pay attention to all the smaller details and developer in-jokes they left in the game. But Aonuma isn't a gamer, I don't think he particularly understands Zelda based on his interviews (he couldn't explain the design philosophy to his new team at all) and removing all the old developers completely removes the heart and soul from Zelda IMO.
 
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ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
It’s never stopped leading for me. Now that I’ve played both games, I can take your Skyward Sword vs Skyrim point (I can remember back in 2011 when that was a thing) and say SS is way more fun. I’ll take SS over Skyrim any day. Skyrim vs BotW is probably a much more fair comparison as far as gameplay is concerned, and of course Skyrim doesn’t even remotely compare to it. Even when it shared the spotlight with Monster Hunter as my favorite game series, there has never been an action adventure series I liked more than Zelda.
 

Hyrulian Hero

Zelda Informer Codger
Joined
Oct 6, 2016
Location
SoDak
Skyward Sword's 93% to Skyrim's 94%. Breath of the Wild's 97% (thanks, Sterling) to the Witcher 3's 92%...I think I'm missing the problem here. If Metacritic has any guidance to offer, it seems to be that even the weakest 3D Zelda game is a work of art. Zelda has always progressively led in some ways and conservatively stuck to tradition in others. Just like America, it's a dangerously powerful combination.

Even some of the 2D games have been masterpieces within their genres or at least advanced gaming in some way. There's a reason why there's an entire genre of "Zelda-like" rip-off games, Nintendo rarely fails to wow with the series (neither does Capcom in my opinion). If you want the aesthetic of a game series to be dark and gritty (and considering the two comparisons you made, that's what it sounds like), you may not be looking for Zelda. As much as we may want to project our desires onto a game series, Zelda doesn't need our help to become less whimsical and more standard, every game has been at least good if not great (although I want a fan of TriForce Heroes).

As much as you may not like Skyward Sword for the janky motion controls, the other two common video game companies spent millions of dollars over the next several years to compete with it. And that's what many consider to be the worst 3D Zelda. Zelda still leads and put out another revolutionary game last year so...I just don't see a reason to think they won't continue making leading Zelda games.
 

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