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General Zelda What's Up with the Linearity Hate?

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
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Jan 16, 2013
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Inside the Moon
I hear people bash endlessly on the linearity of dungeon order, and that's something I've never had a problem with. I've played 10 Zelda games, and they all feel fine despite the linear dungeon order (I'm not sure which game isn't linear). Each temple brings challenges that build off of old ones, and each temple often cleanses some new realm or saves something. This would happen linear or not, and the linearity seems to make sense conceptually due to advancing the story and letting dungeons utilize items from other dungeons. I don't understand why a specific order of progression urks people. Can you fill me in?
 

Ventus

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Doing the same thing is boring to many people. That's all I can say brosive. I don't want to be restricted in a WORLD. Zelda aims to offer a WORLD to delve in, not a LEVEL SET. You know what I'm saying? No one says that I MUST be an Electrical Engineer. I can try out other professions in life. Why must I do only one set of things, and one set of things the same exact way?

It's a lot like playing with legos, actually. Linearity is making the same spaceship using the exact same steps, with the only method of changing being "do it quickly or do it slowly". Nonlinearity allows you to make spaceshpis with cool designs, build arms before legs, build a leg then transform it into an arm and even make a human figure! :O
 

CynicalSquid

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I don't think it's linearity in the dungeon order, it's linearity with the overworld. In newer games you have to do certain things before you can reach certain area, which limits exploration. The first Zeldas were centered around exploration, and now with linearity, Zelda is starting to stray too far from it's roots.
 

Musicfan

the shadow mage
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It limits exploration. Simple as that. It dose not force you to explore you are told go here here and here. You can have story with non linearity. You could have story progress based on how many dungeons are completed and so on. As for items you could have forking paths with different puzzle or even multiple solutions.
 

Ventus

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Furthermore, dungeon order shouldn't be restrictive by virtue of the fact that it's merely a dungeon. Why is a dungeon - whose reward is typically one in a set of something - restricted to some arbitrary order? I should be able to set foot in and complete some tasks in one dungeon while still being able to complete a mildly easier dungeon. To say that it should be restricted is like telling me that I have to chart 100% of Texas before I can set foot in Colorado, and that's quite frankly mean.
 
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I don't think the problem is the inside dungeon linearity, it's the outside, the overworld. In the recent Zelda titles, the overworld has been really linear and there's not much exploration (SS had a big problem about this).
 

Ventus

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For me it's dungeon order as well as overworld. A world doesn't force me to do things in a specific order, believe it or not. There might be some prerequisites, but once I get those down I can do practically whatever I want. Zelda once worked that way...but why does it give us level sets? Really, why? What reasonable benefits does linerity present?
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
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Because Zelda bores them very easily and they want to pretend (don't ask me how it works) that they are playing a different game each playthrough.
 

Ventus

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Because Zelda bores them very easily and they want to pretend (don't ask me how it works) that they are playing a different game each playthrough.
Bro, Do you even non linearity? Do you even Jenga? (don't ask if those are real sentences, because non linearity is not a verb...Jenga might be, however. :rolleyes:)
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Please. Are you going to argue that Jenga is not different every time you play it? Are you gonna take the SAME route each and every time? Use the same parameters each and every time? lol no. So please...don't act like non-linearity is some inconsequential, non-existent, contrived version of make-believe. It isn't. ;)
 

JuicieJ

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I used to not really care about linearity, either, but over time I've come to recognize that it's not good for a series like Zelda. Dungeon order still isn't a big issue for me, even though I'd prefer to have some choice in that, but in the overworld, there's no excuse. Zelda is an Action-ADVENTURE series. The term "adventure" should immediately cause anyone, even casual gamers, that the genre allows open exploration.

If you go out on an adventure, would you rather be forced to follow a dotted line, or would you rather be able to roam to your heart's content? Would you rather be guided by the hand, or would you rather choose where you wanted to go and when? It's a simple concept. An adventure shouldn't be littered with pointless restrictions that limit freedom.

Of course, in a video game, SOME restrictions have to be laid in place, otherwise the design could be easily exploited, but placing roadblocks in our path for no reason other than "the story doesn't want you to go there yet" and cluttering an overworld with hallways "because LOL" defeats the purpose. It's fine in series like Resident Evil where the focus is NOT setting out on an adventure, but it's ridiculous for a series like Zelda to be completely and wholly linear. That's why we want it to stop and are glad that (assumedly) A Link Between Worlds and Zelda Wii U are granting our wish.

Because Zelda bores them very easily and they want to pretend (don't ask me how it works) that they are playing a different game each playthrough.

I'm gonna save you the abuse and just point you to Ventus's post on this one. =D
 

MW7

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LoZ, AoL, ALttP, Oot, MM, and PH let you do dungeons in various orders. Wind Waker is odd because a sizable portion of the main quest can be done in different orders but dungeons have a strict progression. Skyward Sword lets you do the Song of the Hero quest in different orders. The Four Swords games are nonlinear too I think but I don't play them. I really have a problem with how much linearity has been embraced by the game designers lately. Nonlinearity aids exploration and makes the games more replayable. Nonlinear dungeon progression basically adds a difficult puzzle to games for players to figure out. It's rarely presented to the player that dungeons can be interchanged. Figuring out what different orders are possible is its own reward because it can be challenging and requires you to think about things in a different way. Nonlinearity goes way beyond being able to do dungeons in different orders, and it encompasses being able to do other parts of the quest in various orders which can even involve the order you obtain items.

The best game for nonlinearity is probably ALttP because doing dungeons in an order other than numerically is actually beneficial in some cases and in others requires you to solve dungeons in novel ways. With ALttP you are missing out if you do the game the same way every time. My best example of this is how I figured out that you can complete the Ice Palace without the hookshot. You have to think outside the box and do the dungeon in a different manner than usual in order to pull it off, but it is possible. Also for nonlinearity within dungeons themselves ALttP is easily the best game. One fun game I like to play is figuring out how many leftover keys you can finish a dungeon with. Misery Mire is the craziest one in which there are six small keys to six locked doors, but you can finish the dungeon with 4 still in hand.

With Ocarina of Time I literally have spent dozens of playthroughs figuring out all the different choices the player can make. Other than for speedrunning there aren't many benefits for doing things in different orders in OoT, but I find it very fun just figuring out what is possible. Optional items also play into this- take the Bottom of the Well as an example. A player who has limited experience will think that you need to complete it right before the Shadow Temple, someone who has tried different things will realize that you can do it earlier as soon as you complete the Forest Temple, and finally a player who has really experimented with the game will realize that the lens of truth is optional and that you don't even have to do the Bottom of the Well. Once you know the basics of the game extremely well, only being able to do novel things will consistently be interesting.

For instance I've played Twilight Princess about 5 times, and every time you have to do the main quest the same way so now I'm pretty bored with it. Ocarina of Time I've played it at least 50-60 times and I'm still finding new things to do (and I haven't ventured into glitching yet either). It's just simply fun for me to do things that on the surface seem like they shouldn't be possible. For example I've obtained the Gerudo Membership pass before the hookshot (and with a minor glitch you can also get the Requiem of Spirit at this point too), obtained the medallions in the order Water-Forest-Spirit-Fire-Shadow without glitches, done the Fire Temple without the Goron's Tunic which requires you to have the longshot before the Fire Temple, and completed the Bottom of the Well after finishing all of the trials in Ganon's Tower.
 
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JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
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LoZ, AoL, ALttP, Oot, MM, and PH let you do dungeons in various orders.

Wait, seriously? How? I've played through PH multiple times, and I recall it being one of the most linear titles to date.

Also, MM only lets you sequence break. The dungeon order is actually linear. There's just a lot of freedom to be had through the sidequests and whatnot.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
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Oct 28, 2012
Please. Are you going to argue that Jenga is not different every time you play it? Are you gonna take the SAME route each and every time? Use the same parameters each and every time? lol no. So please...don't act like non-linearity is some inconsequential, non-existent, contrived version of make-believe. It isn't. ;)

I don't play Jenga. *shrug* Non-linearity isn't imaginary, no...but all it really does is give you (I say you, because it doesn't apply to me) the illusion that something different is happening, when it's not.

Also, I never understood some of the claims of OoT and MM letting you dungeons in different order. Nearly all cases for OoT involves glitching...and if we're going to count that, I may as well claim every Zelda is non-linear because I can hack my way to a different dungeon. MM almost always requires you to do over 50% of the current dungeon before advancing...that's not shifting the order, that's just leaving a dungeon incomplete and making more work for yourself to do.

Anyway, I just don't see the pleasure in it. It feels weird even when I have attempted it. It's like picking up Harry Potter or Narnia and starting with Chapter One, moving to Chapter Seven, going on to Chapter Six, then Chapter Two, Chapter Five, Chapter Three, etc. It feels like the journey and the story was just...sloppy...and ruined.
 

Ventus

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Anyway, I just don't see the pleasure in it. It feels weird even when I have attempted it. It's like picking up Harry Potter or Narnia and starting with Chapter One, moving to Chapter Seven, going on to Chapter Six, then Chapter Two, Chapter Five, Chapter Three, etc. It feels like the journey and the story was just...sloppy...and ruined.

While I'm not going to debate whether you see pleasure or your feelings towards dungeon order, I AM going to say that you're doing a wrong analogy. There IS no story with dungeons. They're pure filler. That's why doing them in any order is justified; there's no sequence of events that really needs to happen. ;)
 

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