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Few Questions About First 6 Zeldas

Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Originally Posted by Crash

When it comes to the split timeline... I'm kinda iffy on it myself. But yes, that's kind of what I was talking about. We know Ganondorf was sealed by the sages magic, so the Ocarina wasn't for that. But do remember that the Ocarina is necessary in order to open the Door of Time, so it's just as likely that it's needed to close, and lock, the Door of Time. It's the Master Sword that's responsible for Link's age and it would keep him that way until it's put back. The Master Sword is in both timelines... that much is certain, if there is a split. Which means that Link would indeed have returned the sword in the Adult line and it would remain in the Child line as well. This will account for the "divine prank" that's mentioned in Twilight Princess as well; Ganondorf would have it but no one would remember that he got it, so as far as they would know he just obtained it by some "divine prank". Link returns back to a time right when he obtains the Master Sword, which as well all know is also when Ganondorf was able to enter the Sacred Realm and obtain the Triforce. So... even though Ganondorf hasn't come to power yet, assuming split timeline theory here, he still has the Triforce of Power cause of the time period when Link came back.

If Link is returned to a moment before he draw the Master Sword, the Sarced Realm would be closed and Ganondorf would not be able to enter it between OoT and TP. The TP Sages say that Ganondorf wanted to invade the Sacred Realm, but it's implied that he did not succeed. Moreover, why would Ganondorf not use the ToP until the very last moment if he was aware that he possessed it?

There is in essence two ideas regarding the "Divine Prank": One is that Ganondorf did get the ToP from the SR, which means that Link was sent back to a time after he originally drew the Sword, and that the "Divine Prank" is just an expression; the other idea is that Ganondorf for some unknown reason got the ToP in TP, which means that Link was sent back to a time before he drew the Sword, and that the "Divine Prank" can be an actual prank of the gods, but it does not have to be.

I favour the second theory, primarily on account of both Link standing before the MS in the OoT CE, indicating that he was sent back to a time when Link stood before the MS (i.e. before he drew it) and becuase it is implied that Ganondorf was given the ToP in TP (he did not take it himself).

As far as Zelda having the Ocarina in MM as a child when Link gave it to her as an adult, well remember that it's a divine item and whenever Link travels through time, everything he has stays with him, so the same would go for Zelda, especially considering she's a sage AND a Triforce Wielder. Also, I think that the Master Sword and the Ocarina of Time are items that are above the normal influence of time and can exist outside of the natural bounds and limitations of it.

I don't really understand what you mean: If Zelda takes the AT OoT to the CT, what happened to the CT OoT? Did the AT OoT end up on the CT? Did AT Zelda travel in time too? I think that you have logical explanations to all these misunderstandings.

/Blue Window
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
If Link is returned to a moment before he draw the Master Sword, the Sarced Realm would be closed and Ganondorf would not be able to enter it between OoT and TP. The TP Sages say that Ganondorf wanted to invade the Sacred Realm, but it's implied that he did not succeed. Moreover, why would Ganondorf not use the ToP until the very last moment if he was aware that he possessed it?

There is in essence two ideas regarding the "Divine Prank": One is that Ganondorf did get the ToP from the SR, which means that Link was sent back to a time after he originally drew the Sword, and that the "Divine Prank" is just an expression; the other idea is that Ganondorf for some unknown reason got the ToP in TP, which means that Link was sent back to a time before he drew the Sword, and that the "Divine Prank" can be an actual prank of the gods, but it does not have to be.

I favour the second theory, primarily on account of both Link standing before the MS in the OoT CE, indicating that he was sent back to a time when Link stood before the MS (i.e. before he drew it) and becuase it is implied that Ganondorf was given the ToP in TP (he did not take it himself).



I don't really understand what you mean: If Zelda takes the AT OoT to the CT, what happened to the CT OoT? Did the AT OoT end up on the CT? Did AT Zelda travel in time too? I think that you have logical explanations to all these misunderstandings.

/Blue Window

Yes, to your first paragraphs, I'm referring to that Link had to set the Master Sword in the pedestal itself. We see him teleport in front of it and him walking away so we're not actually shown him placing the sword into the pedestal, but it's highly likely that he did. Since he had to replace the sword itself, that would be the reason that Ganondorf still had the Triforce of Power. Link still has the Triforce of Courage, we know this from WW when The King of Red Lions explains that it detached and broke into pieces when the Hero of Time left, if Link still holds it, it would be assumed the others still do too. While Ganondorf may have been sealed in the Adult Timeline, The Child Timeline Ganondorf was still there and would have just received the Triforce of Power and not gained all the power that he has at the end of the game. He would have made the wish to rule, but since Link and Zelda already got rid of his wish in the Adult Timeline, all he's left with is the Triforce Piece. Link and Zelda tell everyone about him and his plans which leads to TP backstory where they try to dispose of him. But... since he just received the Triforce piece he was immortal and just starting to acquire more power.

Now... for the Ocarina... There is no Adult or Child Ocarina, there is only the Ocarina of Time. There is only one Ocarina of Time at any given moment in the story. When Link gives it to Zelda as an adult, that's it. The Ocarina is no longer in his possession and will no longer travel with him back in time because it's off his persona. Think of it this way. If Link were to remove his boots as an adult and leave them in the temple of time before he goes back in time, then he won't have his boots as a child because they weren't on his person, despite him having boots as a child. The boots he wears as a kid and an adult are the same, but if you remove them from him then they become affected by the natural flows of time around Link and won't travel with him. It's the same deal with the Ocarina of Time except that that's a divine item that already has a lot of power over time itself so it, by sheer magical ability, is above and beyond the normal flows of time since it can control time itself.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
To Crash

Yes, to your first paragraphs, I'm referring to that Link had to set the Master Sword in the pedestal itself. We see him teleport in front of it and him walking away so we're not actually shown him placing the sword into the pedestal, but it's highly likely that he did. Since he had to replace the sword itself, that would be the reason that Ganondorf still had the Triforce of Power.

Ganondorf would only have the Triforce of Powre if, and only if, Link is sent back to a time after he drew the Master Sword in the end. When Link normally puts it back, he is sent back to a time before he drew it, which means that Ganondorf would not have the ToP (or, this is how I see it).

Link still has the Triforce of Courage, we know this from WW when The King of Red Lions explains that it detached and broke into pieces when the Hero of Time left, if Link still holds it, it would be assumed the others still do too.

The King of Red Lions explains that when Link travelled in time he lost the Triforce of Courage. We know that Zelda and Ganondorf had theirs on the AT, however, the question is if they had them on the AT.

While Ganondorf may have been sealed in the Adult Timeline, The Child Timeline Ganondorf was still there and would have just received the Triforce of Power and not gained all the power that he has at the end of the game. He would have made the wish to rule, but since Link and Zelda already got rid of his wish in the Adult Timeline, all he's left with is the Triforce Piece. Link and Zelda tell everyone about him and his plans which leads to TP backstory where they try to dispose of him. But... since he just received the Triforce piece he was immortal and just starting to acquire more power.

Well, Ganondorf's wish would still have failed due to his heart being imbalanced. Still, the TP Sages heavily imply that Ganondorf didn't reach the Sarced Realm. Think about this: if Ganondorf had reached the SR, why would the Sages have considered him having the ToP a "divine prank" and be so surprised?

Now... for the Ocarina... There is no Adult or Child Ocarina, there is only the Ocarina of Time. There is only one Ocarina of Time at any given moment in the story. When Link gives it to Zelda as an adult, that's it. The Ocarina is no longer in his possession and will no longer travel with him back in time because it's off his persona. Think of it this way. If Link were to remove his boots as an adult and leave them in the temple of time before he goes back in time, then he won't have his boots as a child because they weren't on his person, despite him having boots as a child. The boots he wears as a kid and an adult are the same, but if you remove them from him then they become affected by the natural flows of time around Link and won't travel with him. It's the same deal with the Ocarina of Time except that that's a divine item that already has a lot of power over time itself so it, by sheer magical ability, is above and beyond the normal flows of time since it can control time itself

Why would the Ocarina not exist on the CT when everything else (save Link and Navi that changed timelines) exist on both timelines? When Link goes back in time, Zelda does not, and since she has the Ocarina, it must remain where she is. There would still be an Ocarina on the Child Timeline.

If Link takes off his boots and goes back in time, he would possess the boots accoridng to all logics (of course, some of this logic can not work in-game for game play reasons) when he returns to the past.

/Blue Window
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
To Crash



Ganondorf would only have the Triforce of Powre if, and only if, Link is sent back to a time after he drew the Master Sword in the end. When Link normally puts it back, he is sent back to a time before he drew it, which means that Ganondorf would not have the ToP (or, this is how I see it).



The King of Red Lions explains that when Link travelled in time he lost the Triforce of Courage. We know that Zelda and Ganondorf had theirs on the AT, however, the question is if they had them on the AT.



Well, Ganondorf's wish would still have failed due to his heart being imbalanced. Still, the TP Sages heavily imply that Ganondorf didn't reach the Sarced Realm. Think about this: if Ganondorf had reached the SR, why would the Sages have considered him having the ToP a "divine prank" and be so surprised?



Why would the Ocarina not exist on the CT when everything else (save Link and Navi that changed timelines) exist on both timelines? When Link goes back in time, Zelda does not, and since she has the Ocarina, it must remain where she is. There would still be an Ocarina on the Child Timeline.

If Link takes off his boots and goes back in time, he would possess the boots accoridng to all logics (of course, some of this logic can not work in-game for game play reasons) when he returns to the past.

/Blue Window
No he wouldn't. Think of a machine, now... everything inside the time machine will travel with you because it's inside the confines of the time machine, meaning it's outside the normal flow of time; however, if something were taken out of the time machine and you keep traveling, then that item that was left outside is now in the normal confines of time and can and no longer will travel through time. This is the concept I'm speaking of is that the only reason Link keeps things, his Ocarina, his weapons, and his clothes is because they are on him WHILE he is traveling through times. If they are not on him when he travels through time, then they are stuck in that time period. If he takes off his boots in the future and leaves them there, he will be without boots in the past because of how he travels through time. The sword doesn't alter his appearance or his age, it all does it naturally. So when he's transported to the past, whatever's with him and on him goes too because it's on his person when he's sealed, and when he wakes up in the past, everything that was on him will be the same as the future even if it wasn't so in the past.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Then I guess we have different interpretations of time travel in OoT. I consider time travel in OoT to be a "magical rewinding of time". This explains why Link is a child when he goes back in time (him keeping stuff is partially game play reasons and partially magic). If Link travelled the "normal" way, he would still be an adult when he went back to the past. "CT Link" would not have given away the OoT, so he would still have it, since Link has the OoT when he is about to draw the MS.

Any way, what I don't understand is how the OoT could end up on the CT when AT Zelda stayed on the AT.

/Blue Window
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Because it's a sealing effect, it doesn't fast forward time, time still progresses at it's natural rate, which is why everyone ages including Link. Zelda is an adult in the Adult Timeline, but whenever Link went back to the past, she became a child again as well. Don't think of them as Adult Link or Child Link, he's just Link, at least for this discussion. A lot of people get caught up on this because we think of time travel like Back to the Future, where we instantaneously travel from one point in time to another. In Link's world, his soul his sealed away for 7 years which is why everything ages. For us it's instantaneous but seven years still pass the same for Link and everyone else. Now we have to think of Zelda the same way as we do Link, there is no Adult Zelda or Child Zelda, just Zelda. This is why the split timeline is iffy to me and sometimes I have a hard time accepting it. Zelda plays the Ocarina to transport Link back to the temple where he puts the sword back and everything reverts. Everything is young again, including Zelda. She knows that she is a sage now and everything that happened within the past 7 years. The reason she has the Ocarina now and not Link is because he gave it back to her, even though it was as an adult, it's now out of his possession permanently. Her playing the ocarina would have the same effect as in when we play it in Majora's Mask, coupled with the replacement of the Master Sword, everything is reverted back to the present but everything is retained by whoever is holding it; but instead of three days it's 7 years. Now that she is a sage and is a chosen part of the Triforce, the king listened to her and Link and they tried to kill off Ganondorf. One of the Major points here is just by the simple fact that she's holding the Ocarina of Time, she has control and immunity over time itself.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
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Location
Redmond, Washington
Now... for the Ocarina... There is no Adult or Child Ocarina, there is only the Ocarina of Time. There is only one Ocarina of Time at any given moment in the story. When Link gives it to Zelda as an adult, that's it. The Ocarina is no longer in his possession and will no longer travel with him back in time because it's off his persona. Think of it this way. If Link were to remove his boots as an adult and leave them in the temple of time before he goes back in time, then he won't have his boots as a child because they weren't on his person, despite him having boots as a child. The boots he wears as a kid and an adult are the same, but if you remove them from him then they become affected by the natural flows of time around Link and won't travel with him. It's the same deal with the Ocarina of Time except that that's a divine item that already has a lot of power over time itself so it, by sheer magical ability, is above and beyond the normal flows of time since it can control time itself.
If Link removes his boots as an adult, then goes back in time, he'll wake up with his boots on as a child as they were when he first picked up the sword to become an adult. They don't disappear from the timeline if he leaves them in the future. Zelda has the OoT in the past. She gives it to Link a little later and he leaves it in the future. But that doesn't change the fact that Zelda still had it before she gave it to Link, and so she is able to give it to him again.

A --- B --- C ------------------- D --- E --- F

A = Zelda has the OoT.
B = Zelda gives Link the OoT.
C-D = Link goes forward in time.
E = Link gives Zelda the OoT.
F = Zelda sends Link back to point A. Look at Point A again. "Zelda has the OoT."


edit:
Everything is young again, including Zelda. She knows that she is a sage now and everything that happened within the past 7 years.
proof - or at least evidence - of that please?
 
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Joined
Sep 25, 2011
My only proof is the time travel effect that we've seen in the game itself. The fact that Link remembers everything as a child that he encountered as an adult. If what you say is true and he reverts back to a time where things are the same, he would have forgotten everything that's happened as an adult, including warp songs and the like, but he doesn't, which leads me to believe that he doesn't just revert back to when he was a child. I never said the boots disappear from the timeline, they would just be in a point in time that hasn't come yet. I'm saying that since they're on him as a kid when he's sealed, that there is only one pair of boots and that his body acts as a time machine in that everything on his body is sealed with him. When he puts the Master Sword back in the pedestal he's resealed and the seven years go back, but he still has no boots so no boots go back with him when he travels back, leaving him barefoot when he awakens as a child.

As far as proof goes... There's no proof of any of this, including your time theory, including anyone's theory, it's ALL speculation and this is just the way that I see it happening in the way that makes sense to me. Of course with time there's any number of things that don't make sense or add up even without throwing magic in.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Since there is no 2 Zeldas in the Future, 2 Zeldas in the past, 2 Links in the future, 2 Links in the Past, 2 Ganons in the future, or 2 Ganons in the past, that would be proof that every one has, does, or is affected by a fast forwarding or rewinding time travel. Not a take out of place and replace time travel. Zelda would know everything that just happened just like Link would.
 

Satsy

~~SaturnStorm
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Since the only person travelling through time is Link, only Link will know about the future for certain. Zelda would not, because she didn't travel in time. Everyone in the future would have known, but that has no effect on their past selves. Zelda as a child was not, nor was it ever indicated she was, aware of the future events any more than she was before the whole debacle started.
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Link would know, Ganon would know, and Zelda would know. Ganon would know because he has been sealed throughout all existense in this game at the end and he still has his innate triforce. He could be eating a sandwich in the present and Link seals his existence in the future; he'll know why suddenly his body in the present is now surrounded by white. Triforce of Power could contain anything to allow him to know whatever as well. Zelda would know because of her powers, WISDOM triforce (this has to account for something), and the ocarina. Ocarina had to get back to her while young at some point for us to assume that she gave it back to Link in the beginning of MM.

It was indicated at the ending that she knows everything. She was staring at Ganon through the window when you first met her. She wouldn't be staring at Ganon now because he is sealed and wouldn't be there. Link went back in the end of the game to see her to:

(a) friendly celebration
(b) to ask for the ocarina to look for navi
(c) to tell her everything that went down

So even if she really doesn't know, I'm sure Link would have told her during that time. So either way, she knows.
 
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MikauIncarnate

Hero of the Zora
Joined
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Location
U.S.
Since there is no 2 Zeldas in the Future, 2 Zeldas in the past, 2 Links in the future, 2 Links in the Past, 2 Ganons in the future, or 2 Ganons in the past, that would be proof that every one has, does, or is affected by a fast forwarding or rewinding time travel. Not a take out of place and replace time travel. Zelda would know everything that just happened just like Link would.

No she wouldn't. If this were true, that would mean that random people in Hyrule would know that in the future they become redeads. Link is the only person who knows anything. Basically, this is the whole basis of the split timeline. After the events of OoT, Zelda sends Link back to before they ever meet, maybe even before Gohma invades the Deku Tree. Then, Zelda is still in the AT, as is everybody else, except for Link. Link in the past, now, remembers everything and goes to tell Zelda. At this point, they meet for the first time. Then they tell of Ganondorf's plans and he is imprisoned. Anyway, the gist of it is that Link is the only person who remembers it all. The future cannot affect the past, therefore when Ganon is sealed in the future, nothing happens in the past. Everything stays the same. Besides, why would there ever be 2 of any one character at any point in time?
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
I already gave solid reasons in my above post (before yours) stating why. scroll up and reread. you may have responded while I was doing some editing.
 
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Joined
Sep 25, 2011
One simply can't ignore the fact that she holds the triforce of wisdom now, and surely that does have to account for something. As does Ganondorf having the triforce of power and Link for Courage. They all have a piece of the Triforce which would explain why they retain their memories somewhat, to top it all off, Zelda has the Ocarina of Time at the end of OoT and we know that that one item has a lot of power over time. Link had the Master Sword which let him retain his memories as well. The point of it all is that if what is said about Link just going back a time before is true and that he is the exact same way he was before he pulled the Master Sword out then that would mean his memories would be the same too. Why would it affect just the physical world when he's transferred back and not him when everyone says he's reverted back to an original state, to me that would mean memory included.
 

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